Effects loop vs front of amp?

[AtomHeartMother]

What tonal differences for each effect should one expect when running your pedals in the effects loop versus in front of the amp?

 

What pedals work well in the effects loop and what pedals don't?

 

When running effects into an effects loop that is switchable (on and off), would switching the effects loop off take the effects totally out of the circuit?

 

Finally, with an amp with a direct out (like an XLR out), does the direct out include the effects loop in the direct out signal?

[Fxrs]

I don't know about the direct out question, but GENERALLY speaking, gain and eq based effects (OD, EQ, Comp. etc.) go in front, while time-based effects (delay, reverb, chorus, flange, etc.) go in the loop. It really depends on the amount of gain you're using though.

[AtomHeartMother]

Originally posted by Fxrs I don't know about the direct out question, but GENERALLY speaking, gain and eq based effects (OD, EQ, Comp. etc.) go in front, while time-based effects (delay, reverb, chorus, flange, etc.) go in the loop. It really depends on the amount of gain you're using though.

 

 

Do mod and time effects not sound as good up front?

 

What about effect order?

 

Say I have a trem, delay, chorus, and phaser going into the loop? What order?

[cantoXIII]

Originally posted by AtomHeartMother Say I have a trem, delay, chorus, and phaser going into the loop? What order?

 

 

i have all of those in my effect loop, and i have it: delay>tremolo>phase>chorus...but i don't really use the phase or chorus much, so i'm not too sure if it makes much difference where they are.

[L6Sguy]

Originally posted by AtomHeartMother Do mod and time effects not sound as good up front?

 

 

it depends on what, and how, you are trying to accomplish as to whether things'll sound good (read: traditional, vs. reznor-ized).

 

if you are using mega preamp gain, then putting a delay in front of that means that your 'straight' signal hits the preamp and gets gained up, as do the delay-repeats. delay repeats that get gained up sound kinda ass. a distorted guitar that has delays applied generally sounds much better. in this case, the loop would be the right place to use it.

 

but, if you are using say a Twin Reverb (hifi clean), and use the delay in front of the amp but with a dirt pedal behind it, you would again get distorted guitar repeating, as opposed to distorting the repeats.

 

 

most of this stuff is pretty logical, once you understand that the amp's signal (generally) goes: preamp-->fx loop-->power amp.

figure out what you wanna hear, and put in place like that.

[danbomb]

I have always had a problem with this because I can't stand the hassle of rack gear & pedals to get the best of both worlds. I also did not want to install a loop in my homebrew plexi head. I ended up going with a womanizer on my board to solve the problem. It sounds very amplike and sovles the problem by having most of my preamp tube drive on the floor. I am currently beta testing the glass nexus and to me it sounds better than any rack or pedal multi-effects I have tried.

[AtomHeartMother]

Does it make a difference if I say that all and any distortion will be coming from the amp? In other words, I won't be using an overdrive or distortion.

Also, most of my playing will be with a clean tone with occasionally a light to medium gain. However, the effects will be used primarily with a clean tone (except perhas the delay and trem).

[L6Sguy]

Originally posted by AtomHeartMother Does it make a difference if I say that all and any distortion will be coming from the amp? In other words, I won't be using an overdrive or distortion. Also, most of my playing will be with a clean tone with occasionally a light to medium gain. However, the effects will be used primarily with a clean tone (except perhas the delay and trem).

 

 

if the dirt is coming from the preamp, you'd probably do better with delay & trem in the loop.

 

depending on the phaser, the settings, etc, it can go in front or in the loop. i dig phase up front, but thats because it delivers what i want from it there. if i was looking for more swoosh and more emphasis on it, it'd go in the loop (post-preamp gain, post tone controls).

 

chorus, imho, always goes in the loop. this makes it so that whatever my guitar sounds like all the way up until the power amp is what gets chorused. delay & trem would go after that.

[AtomHeartMother]

Originally posted by L6Sguy if the dirt is coming from the preamp, you'd probably do better with delay & trem in the loop. depending on the phaser, the settings, etc, it can go in front or in the loop. i dig phase up front, but thats because it delivers what i want from it there. if i was looking for more swoosh and more emphasis on it, it'd go in the loop (post-preamp gain, post tone controls). chorus, imho, always goes in the loop. this makes it so that whatever my guitar sounds like all the way up until the power amp is what gets chorused. delay & trem would go after that.

 

 

Thanks. You (and others) have been a great help.

 

One last question: Does the order of the effects in the loop matter, if I'm only using one pedal at a time. So does it matter if I have it:

 

delay>trem>chorus>phaser

 

VS

 

delay>phaser>trem>phaser

 

 

if I never use any of the effects together (other than maybe the delay and a mod)?

[L6Sguy]

Originally posted by AtomHeartMother Thanks. You (and others) have been a great help. One last question: Does the order of the effects in the loop matter, if I'm only using one pedal at a time. So does it matter if I have it: delay>trem>chorus>phaser VS delay>phaser>trem>phaser if I never use any of the effects together (other than maybe the delay and a mod)?

 

 

if they are not ever gonna be used at the same time, theres nothing to really dictate placement (maybe impedance or bypass issues, but that should be a whole diff thread).

 

keep in mind that with the setups listed above, your signal & delay signals would be getting phased or chorused, rather than a phasing or chorused guitar signal with delays. the latter is more 'traditional.'

[comfortablynumb]

I'm curious about the tonal differences between effects in the loop or in front when the amp is run clean.

When there's no distortion do the effects sound different in front than in the loop? I've never really done an a/b test to see.

[L6Sguy]

Originally posted by comfortablynumb I'm curious about the tonal differences between effects in the loop or in front when the amp is run clean. When there's no distortion do the effects sound different in front than in the loop? I've never really done an a/b test to see.

 

 

you will be effecting the preamped and tone-tweaked signal, rather than that of just straight from the guitar. should be very little difference if you're running everything clean, and dont have extreme settings on your amp's eq.

[AtomHeartMother]

Hmmm...I'm a little confused now. This is what someone at Tech 21 told me:


Thanks for your inquiry. Yes, the effect loop is the last thing in the signal path before the XLR Output (and of course, the power section and speaker). I'm guessing you're hearing your effects through the speaker, but haven't yet tried the XLR Out to the PA? Because if you had, you'd have your answer already.

But I'm always inclined to ask, why are you using pedals in an amp's effect loop? Effect loops are meant for line level rackmount effects, primarily, because the signal from the Effect Send is already jacked up by the preamp, and usually too "hot" for pedals. Pedals usually want to see intrument level signals, and are designed to work right after the guitar, not in a loop (unless you can adjust their input sensivity to compensate for the Effect Send level).

Your second question seems to answer my question. Yes, when the loop is off, the devices are completely out of the signal path, but.. are the pedals messing with your tone when you put them between the guitar and the amp? Or are you just assuming they do, based on what you've read about "true bypass" (which we address on our website)? Regardless... if they don't "like" the level in the loop, and you really feel you need to get them out of the path when you're not using them, you might need to consider something like the BOSS Loop Selector (unless you feel that messes with your tone, too).

[Acid Test]

Originally posted by AtomHeartMother What tonal differences for each effect should one expect when running your pedals in the effects loop versus in front of the amp? What pedals work well in the effects loop and what pedals don't? When running effects into an effects loop that is switchable (on and off), would switching the effects loop off take the effects totally out of the circuit? Finally, with an amp with a direct out (like an XLR out), does the direct out include the effects loop in the direct out signal?

 

 

 

I run a chorus and a phase/univibe in the effect loop. The chorus sounds a little different but the phase/univibe is dramatically better sounding.

[L6Sguy]

Originally posted by AtomHeartMother Hmmm...I'm a little confused now. This is what someone at Tech 21 told me: Thanks for your inquiry. Yes, the effect loop is the last thing in the signal path before the XLR Output (and of course, the power section and speaker). I'm guessing you're hearing your effects through the speaker, but haven't yet tried the XLR Out to the PA? Because if you had, you'd have your answer already. But I'm always inclined to ask, why are you using pedals in an amp's effect loop? Effect loops are meant for line level rackmount effects, primarily, because the signal from the Effect Send is already jacked up by the preamp, and usually too "hot" for pedals. Pedals usually want to see intrument level signals, and are designed to work right after the guitar, not in a loop (unless you can adjust their input sensivity to compensate for the Effect Send level). Your second question seems to answer my question. Yes, when the loop is off, the devices are completely out of the signal path, but.. are the pedals messing with your tone when you put them between the guitar and the amp? Or are you just assuming they do, based on what you've read about "true bypass" (which we address on our website)? Regardless... if they don't "like" the level in the loop, and you really feel you need to get them out of the path when you're not using them, you might need to consider something like the BOSS Loop Selector (unless you feel that messes with your tone, too).

 

 

his assessment may or may not apply to your amp. it doesnt apply to mine, an amp with a level-switchable fx loop.

 

so, what amp are you using?

[AtomHeartMother]

Originally posted by L6Sguy his assessment may or may not apply to your amp. it doesnt apply to mine, an amp with a level-switchable fx loop. so, what amp are you using?

 

 

Oh, didn't I say? Shoot, I guess not.

 

It's a Tech 21 Trademark 60. I'll be recieving it tomorrow.

[L6Sguy]

Originally posted by AtomHeartMother Oh, didn't I say? Shoot, I guess not. It's a Tech 21 Trademark 60. I'll be recieving it tomorrow.

 

 

i'd suggest waiting until you've got it, and can give it a once over with gear in hand. it sounds like this aint the right amp for stomps in the loop (depending, of course, on yer specific fx). but, it may not matter at all -- depending on what exactly the sounds you are trying to get are.

[angelhair0]

I haven't read any of the replies, but in my opinion, all pitch shifting and phasing (unless it's very light phasing) should go in front so that the dirt affects those effects. Any reverb, delay, tremelo or anything time based should go after (effects loop). It's all according to your tastes, but I hate hearing the sound of a really phased dirty signal. And I also hate the sound of a dirtied reverb decay rather than a reverbed decay of dirt. Haha.. sounds silly, but you get the picture?

I have a friend who likes his delay before his dirt. He has a more... dirty, kind of grungy sound to his style, so it sounds kind of cool. But I'd never in hell do it that way.

One thing I do, and the reason why my board is so big, is because I like having the option of putting some effects before AND after. I have delays before my dirt and delays after my dirt for different effects. But if you don't have a huge amount of space, or money, or the interest, I would reccomend what I initially said.

And as advice... don't ever heavily phase your dirty signal. It will completely take over your signal and and ruin any changes of your tone prevailing while using the effect. It's not as bad if you're the only guitarist, but I play with another guitarist who uses heavy effects too. With the crashing of cymbals and another guitarist, if I phase my dirty signal heavily, I get lost at some points in the cycle and other points I'm peaking and killing everyone in the audience. I would never want to phase the amount of harmonics overdrive or distortion creates unless of course the sole purpose is to make some crazy swooshing sound. (I have a phaser after my dirt on my board for just that effect, but I dont use it for anything melodic.. just noise).

[L6Sguy]

Originally posted by angelhair0 I haven't read any of the replies, but in my opinion, all pitch shifting, modulation (phasers, flangers, etc) should go in front so that the dirt affects those effects.....It will completely take over your signal and and ruin any changes of your tone prevailing while using the effect. Chorus, not as much, same with flanger. ....

i gotta say, i'm glad i'm not using your board, based on this alone

[angelhair0]

Originally posted by L6Sguy i gotta say, i'm glad i'm not using your board, based on this alone

I was talking out of my ass. I completely messed that up. I was sidetracked and doing something else at once. I'm gonna edit my post.. I didn't mean to say that.

[L6Sguy]

Originally posted by angelhair0 I was talking out of my ass. I completely messed that up. I was sidetracked and doing something else at once. I'm gonna edit my post.. I didn't mean to say that.

cool

hurry up & fix it! i'm waiting to use your board

[angelhair0]

Originally posted by L6Sguy cool hurry up & fix it! i'm waiting to use your board

It's fixed... but that doesn't mean you'll like what I fixed. You still may hate it!

[Heineken]

In short; If you use dirt pedals in a clean channel you are lucky, you don't need the cable hassle. If you prefer sweet tube amp gain for dirty sounds, like i do, just put all pedals you would normally put after dirt boxes through FX loop. It's cable hell though since Wah's, Whammy's, Phasers need to go in front and about anything else after gain stage. That's four lengthy cables running from your amp. But it's worth it.

[tlchase68]

Originally posted by Heineken In short; If you use dirt pedals in a clean channel you are lucky, you don't need the cable hassle. If you prefer sweet tube amp gain for dirty sounds, like i do, just put all pedals you would normally put after dirt boxes through FX loop. It's cable hell though since Wah's, Whammy's, Phasers need to go in front and about anything else after gain stage. That's four lengthy cables running from your amp. But it's worth it.

 

 

 

Hey Heineken,

 

I am currently getting organized to build a board for my 10 pedals, and I will have a similar layout to the one you described. Based on my extensive research, I fully agree that the "Cable Hell" format will produce the best overall sound. I'd love to see your board to get some ideas for my project...Do you have any pictures to share?

 

Thanks!

[Fxrs]

Originally posted by Acid Test the phase/univibe is dramatically better sounding.

I wonder if this will hold true for my EX-7? I know one thing, the wah on the EX-7 when in the loop has that "I Ain't Superstitious" tone. But I did have it going into my Intellifex first.