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Volume Drop Issues


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HAHA great answer. Why should companies improve their pedals when consumers could just spend thousands on a good switching rig?

 

Don't be silly. I wasn't addressing the question, how can companies improve their pedals. Or, is it possible for companies to rewrite the laws of physics, eliminating capacitive loading for consumers who insist on having huge pedal boards and running all of their pedals in series, either... :poke: :)

 

I was addressing MY take on volume drop issues, as posted by the OP

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Says the man who doesn't have volume drop issues.
:thu:

Elimination of Volume irregularities, is definitely a huge benefit of running stuff the way zachman does. The fact that most kids can't afford to do that, simply serves as a motivator for them to continue improving their playing skills while planning fo better gear, as their funds increase, in time.

 

FIXED :thu:

 

BTW, I have other gear besides the big rack, and don't have issues with volume irregularities when I use pedals

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Which system are you referring to? Does the TC Electronics G system do what you're talking about?


G-System-front-sm.jpg

 

I was referring to systems such as the Switchblade GL, Axess Electronics, CAE, & Skrydstrup R&D.

 

I don't have any personal experience w/ the G-System.

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I was referring to systems such as the Switchblade GL, Axess Electronics, CAE, & Skrydstrup R&D.


I don't have any personal experience w/ the G-System.

 

 

 

I don't know anything about these. I see that the first two are MIDI controllers.

 

This is a total n00b question: will these work with EHX pedals? If not, what would?

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Originally Posted by Laminator_X View Post

Most volume-drop and tone-suck scenarios are hi/lo impedance loading problems. They can usually be avoided if you know what you're doing.


Mind you, it'd be preferable if pedal input and output loads were less all over the map.

That's correct, and the point most people miss.



If you're worried about volume drop, make sure you match the impedances, and use a buffer if necessary. Much cheaper that way.

 

 

so in plain language, how am i going to cancel out the volume drop in my green small stone? what types of pedals can i use as a buffer?

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It's definitely the player. If your pedal drops the volume on your signal, you simply turn up the trim pot on your fingers, or decrease your ear resistance.

Or you just play slower so that the extra volume has more time to catch up to the previous signal as it reaches the listener's ear. Then it all equals out.

Physics...duh

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so in plain language, how am i going to cancel out the volume drop in my green small stone? what types of pedals can i use as a buffer?

 

If I were Zackman, I'd tell you some bull{censored} about how you need to buy a thousand dollar midi switching system. And then try to insult you if you can't afford aforementioned corksniffer switching system.

 

But I'm not, so I won't. :wave:

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so in plain language, how am i going to cancel out the volume drop in my green small stone? what types of pedals can i use as a buffer?

 

 

See if Analogman can fix. i sent my newer SS there for the volume mod. Not sure if he does it with the older ones

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I don't know anything about these. I see that the first two are MIDI controllers.


This is a total n00b question: will these work with EHX pedals? If not, what would?

 

 

What they are essentially are programmable patchbays, that can be controlled via MIDI.

 

Yes, they will work w/ EHX pedals. The main issue w/ EHX pedals is that they are VERY easily clipped on their input and the way people typically use pedals are either directly into the amp input, in an amps effects loop OR a combination of BOTH. The problem is that unfortunately, there is no real standard for effects loops and not all loops are created equally, same for pedals.

 

Here is a little info from the FAQ page of Custom Audio Electronics' website, that may be of interest:

 

The first thing you need to decide is what type of system you are going to need, and the next is how big. We'll start with type. There are 2 basic types of systems with variations on each:

 

A. Pre-effects System

This is the typical "pedal" based system. Pedals are inserted in the signal path between the guitar output and the amp (or amps) input. Pedal effects are typically considered low (or instrument) level devices, although there are exceptions.

 

B. Post-effects System

This is the Preamp/Power amp type of system. This often utilizes line level "rack gear" between the Preamp out and Power amp input. Rack mount type effects are often considered Line (high) level devices capable of handling higher signal levels found between Preamps/Power amps and in amp effects loops. Of course, there are exceptions to this as well. Often, the rack effects have level matching switches or internal modes that change their operating level to maintain the lowest possible noise floor.

 

Of course, there are many variations to these setups. You may have pedals you want to use with your Preamp/Power Amp rig (before or after the Preamp). Or you may have some piece of "rack gear" you want to use between your guitar and amp input. Or, you may have a combination Preamp/Power amp along with amp heads/cabinets or combo amps along with pedals and "rack gear". Anything goes. Remember, a rack-mounted piece of gear doesn't mean it always has to run at line (high) level, just as all pedals don't mean you have to run them at instrument (low) level. See Level Shifting Circuits. Or you may have some pedals between your guitar and amp input (low level), and some rack stuff in the loop of the amp (high level). Anything goes here as long as you have enough loops and foot switches to control them.

 

(This is where the main issue that you are talking about is centered)

 

Level Shifting Circuits-

Often it is necessary to boost or cut signal level to and from various devices. For example, you may want to use instrument level pedals in the line level effects loop of your amp (or between your Preamp and power amp). Or perhaps you want to use a piece of line level (rack) gear between your guitar and amp. Companies like Custom Audio Electronics, can provide the necessary circuits to make this happen.

 

Why would I want a switching (loop) system over a traditional pedal board?

 

Pedal boards are fine if you just want a few pedals and your switching needs are basic. Custom Audio Electronics builds them all the time. But if you are truly serious about your tone, and you want many sound options available to you at any time (not to mention preset combinations and midi program change capability), a switching system is the way to go. No one said you have to turn on all the stuff at the same time! Besides, THERE IS NO CLEANER SIGNAL PATH FROM GUITAR TO AMP THAN WITH A SWITCHING SYSTEM, PERIOD. With a pedal board, even if every effect is bypassed, and you have "100% bypass" switches in all your effects (which is rare), you are still running through every pedal, and every cable and connection in the system. If something fails, good luck finding it. There is still a major capacitive buildup (which results in a severe loss of tone, mainly high end) because your signal must go through each cable and pedal. This is why signal buffers are so important. With a CAE switching system, troubleshooting is easy because you can bypass to get effects out of the signal path, and you can patch in between various places in the signal path, when you know what to look for. With a CAE custom switching system (I can't vouch for other manufacturers) the majority of the signal path is hard wired internally, and with a loop based system bypassing the effect bypasses the cables connecting the effect as well! This is impossible with a traditional pedal board.

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If I were Zackman, I'd tell you some bull{censored} about how you need to buy a thousand dollar midi switching system. And then try to insult you if you can't afford aforementioned corksniffer switching system.


But I'm not, so I won't.
:wave:

 

Bite me, {censored}ownTerror... If you were me, you'd tell him that he could have a level shifting circuit built for the pedals that are an issue for him, that won't cost a ton-smart ass, or to check into having his pedal modded to correct the design flaw, or that a small Axess loop switching system doesn't cost thousands of dollars, or to use better pedals. :idea: BUT, since you have NOTHING productive to offer, since you aren't me, STFU

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What they are essentially are programmable patchbays, that can be controlled via MIDI.


Yes, they will work w/ EHX pedals. The main issue w/ EHX pedals is that they are VERY easily clipped on their input and the way people typically use pedals are either directly into the amp input, in an amps effects loop OR a combination of BOTH. The problem is that unfortunately, there is no real standard for effects loops and not all loops are created equally, same for pedals.


Here is a little info from the FAQ page of Custom Audio Electronics' website, that may be of interest:


The first thing you need to decide is what type of system you are going to need, and the next is how big. We'll start with type. There are 2 basic types of systems with variations on each:


A. Pre-effects System

This is the typical "pedal" based system. Pedals are inserted in the signal path between the guitar output and the amp (or amps) input. Pedal effects are typically considered low (or instrument) level devices, although there are exceptions.


B. Post-effects System

This is the Preamp/Power amp type of system. This often utilizes line level "rack gear" between the Preamp out and Power amp input. Rack mount type effects are often considered Line (high) level devices capable of handling higher signal levels found between Preamps/Power amps and in amp effects loops. Of course, there are exceptions to this as well. Often, the rack effects have level matching switches or internal modes that change their operating level to maintain the lowest possible noise floor.


Of course, there are many variations to these setups. You may have pedals you want to use with your Preamp/Power Amp rig (before or after the Preamp). Or you may have some piece of "rack gear" you want to use between your guitar and amp input. Or, you may have a combination Preamp/Power amp along with amp heads/cabinets or combo amps along with pedals and "rack gear". Anything goes. Remember, a rack-mounted piece of gear doesn't mean it always has to run at line (high) level, just as all pedals don't mean you have to run them at instrument (low) level. See Level Shifting Circuits. Or you may have some pedals between your guitar and amp input (low level), and some rack stuff in the loop of the amp (high level). Anything goes here as long as you have enough loops and foot switches to control them.


(This is where the main issue that you are talking about is centered)


Level Shifting Circuits-

Often it is necessary to boost or cut signal level to and from various devices. For example, you may want to use instrument level pedals in the line level effects loop of your amp (or between your Preamp and power amp). Or perhaps you want to use a piece of line level (rack) gear between your guitar and amp. Companies like Custom Audio Electronics, can provide the necessary circuits to make this happen.


Why would I want a switching (loop) system over a traditional pedal board?


Pedal boards are fine if you just want a few pedals and your switching needs are basic. Custom Audio Electronics builds them all the time. But if you are truly serious about your tone, and you want many sound options available to you at any time (not to mention preset combinations and midi program change capability), a switching system is the way to go. No one said you have to turn on all the stuff at the same time! Besides, THERE IS NO CLEANER SIGNAL PATH FROM GUITAR TO AMP THAN WITH A SWITCHING SYSTEM, PERIOD.
With a pedal board, even if every effect is bypassed, and you have "100% bypass" switches in all your effects (which is rare), you are still running through every pedal, and every cable and connection in the system. If something fails, good luck finding it. There is still a major capacitive buildup (which results in a severe loss of tone, mainly high end) because your signal must go through each cable and pedal. This is why signal buffers are so important.
With a CAE switching system, troubleshooting is easy because you can bypass to get effects out of the signal path, and you can patch in between various places in the signal path, when you know what to look for. With a CAE custom switching system (I can't vouch for other manufacturers) the majority of the signal path is hard wired internally, and with a loop based system bypassing the effect bypasses the cables connecting the effect as well! This is impossible with a traditional pedal board.



Thanks, Zachman! :thu: I would love to have a switching system someday, but I would be running everything Pre-Effects because my amps are vintage and don't have effects loops. Is there one manufacturer you recommend over others for my situation?

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Bite me, {censored}ownTerror... If you were me, you'd tell him that
he could have a level shifting circuit built for the pedals that are an issue for him
, that won't cost a ton-smart ass, or to check into having his pedal modded to correct the design flaw, or that a small Axess loop switching system doesn't cost thousands of dollars, or to use better pedals.
:idea:
BUT, since you have NOTHING productive to offer, since you aren't me, STFU



Go back to the amp forum kthnxbi. :thu:

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Thanks, Zachman!
:thu:
I would love to have a switching system someday, but I would be running everything Pre-Effects because my amps are vintage and don't have effects loops. Is there one manufacturer you recommend over others for my situation?

 

Unfortunately, going the route of a switching system is usually cost prohibitive, but Axess Electronics, is pretty amazing and not in the Ferrari price neighborhood. Though I run amps w/ my setup that don't have loops and overcome the no loop issue by running either a W/D setup, or W/D/W setup... Mind you, NOT always... but once you experience the difference for yourself, you'll smile and enjoy a MAJOR difference in tone.

 

Call LA Sound Design, and speak to Dave Phillips... Tell him Zach Petersen referred you and he can help you, by either modifying your pedals, creating a level shifting circuit, recommending a buffer, or recommending the most cost effective solution for you.

 

http://www.lasounddesign.net/#contact

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Thanks, Zachman!
:thu:
I would love to have a switching system someday, but I would be running everything Pre-Effects because my amps are vintage and don't have effects loops. Is there one manufacturer you recommend over others for my situation?



Obviously your problem is that you wont spend more money on amplifiers. Dont you listen.

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