Jump to content

vintage mojo vs. modern parts


echodeluxe

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 64
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Members

sure, i hate all the mojo {censored} as its just hype but there is certain instances where things like ceramic caps and carbon comp resistors make a very noticeable difference.

 

this one fuzz i designed that i may think about licensing out/producing, if it was made without ceramic caps i wouldnt license it as its not the same sound,seriously!!

 

ive made some of my fuzz designs so many times with differnt parts,values etc and some of them really need ceramic caps to shine thru. i tried NOS germanium trannies but they sucked, so if i'm turning down nos ge trannies surely that shows i dont care for mojo. i can hear the difference between MKT's, Greenies and ceramic caps in every circuit ive tried them in,ceramic doesnt always sound better to me but it does always sound different. funnily enough i cant hear any difference between any caps on a guitars tone pot.

 

in the end all these parts are a matter of cents so i dont bother with cost,if one of my designs requires a more expensive part it gets it as its still dirt cheap.

 

concerning your SF i was sure i saw them with cc res. but if not i apologize for what i said about it to ya, im not scared to admit when i'm wrong,or may be wrong.

 

mojo sells, thats why the myths exist but that doesnt mean theres no truth behind the myth,like all good myths theres usually some truth involved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

if you can hear a difference, i can measure it using test equipment.


unless you are speaking purley about percieved "mojo" like how something looks or smells or something.

 

 

That's part of it, sure; but I'm talking about the feeling that the musician has for the instrument (or stompbox, or whatever), which then affects the musician's playing and responsiveness. From a rational/scientific/empirical standpoint, that would be a mumbo-jumbo statement; but I don't live by science alone, so I always leave some room for a bit of healthy mumbo-jumbo. It keeps the imagination flowing, and that is important in the arts. So, if a vintage piece captures the enthusiasm and creativity of the player, then in a sense, it has mojo regardless of the parts. $.02 only.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

That's part of it, sure; but I'm talking about the feeling that the musician has for the instrument (or stompbox, or whatever), which then affects the musician's playing and responsiveness. From a rational/scientific/empirical standpoint, that would be a mumbo-jumbo statement; but I don't live by science alone, so I always leave some room for a bit of healthy mumbo-jumbo. It keeps the imagination flowing, and that is important in the arts. So, if a vintage piece captures the enthusiasm and creativity of the player, then in a sense, it has mojo regardless of the parts. $.02 only.

 

 

yeah i'll have to agree with you. i deff feel totally different playing an actual 52 tele than a reissue!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

sure, i hate all the mojo {censored} as its just hype but there is certain instances where things like ceramic caps and carbon comp resistors make a very noticeable difference.


this one fuzz i designed that i may think about licensing out/producing, if it was made without ceramic caps i wouldnt license it as its not the same sound,seriously!!


ive made some of my fuzz designs so many times with differnt parts,values etc and some of them really need ceramic caps to shine thru. i tried NOS germanium trannies but they sucked, so if i'm turning down nos ge trannies surely that shows i dont care for mojo. i can here the difference between MKT's, Greenies and ceramic caps in every circuit ive tried them in,ceramic doesnt always sound better to me but it does always sound different.


in the end all these parts are a matter of cents so i dont bother with cost,if one of my designs requires a more expensive part it gets it as its still dirt cheap.


concerning your SF i was sure i saw them with cc res. but if not i apologize for what i said about it to ya, im not scared to admit when i'm wrong,or may be wrong.


mojo sells, thats why the myths exist but that doesnt mean theres no truth behind the myth,like all good myths theres usually some truth involved.

 

 

thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

But sound waves do ;)

 

BTW - why are you sending people to a site that debunks myths about amp components when youre cloning effects pedals?

 

A lot of parts have noticibly different sounds. Its just easy to argue that they dont because its difficult to swap out 30 components in an amp instantly to hear the difference. Sometimes, as with carbon comps, the difference in sound is added noise and a high voltage coefficient of resistance which means the resistor is adding distortion to a signal. Since these are pleasing 2nd order harmonics, we like the sound. That can be called mojo, or it can be called resistor distortion. Either way, there is a difference in what comes out of the speakers. There is more to this stuff than whether or not electrons "care" about the type of component they hit because there is usually more at play then the value of the part - that is the only thing the electron notices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

I think "mojo" is in the whole piece of gear. An old amp or guitar has an effect on the emotions of someone who's playing it in a way that actually matters.


As far as components go, I'll take modern reliability any day.

 

 

Many of the parts that are considered "mojo parts" aren't unreliable. They may have wider tolerances because manufacturing wasn't as precise in 1955 or whenever but they aren't unreliable unless you dig them out of a moldy basement and try to use them. Its a good idea to test any old stock part before you use it but for the most part, unless a part is perishable like an electrolytic cap, its not going to go bad as long as it has been stored well. If you replaced every cap in a pedal with a tropical fish and every resistor with a carbon comp, the pedal would sound different, but it wouldn't be any more likely to fail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

But it would cost a lot more ;) I guess when I say modern reliability I'm talking about how solidly the modern boutique stuff is constructed more than I am about components, so I'm a bit off topic for the thread.

 

Actually, I don't really think I have a point to make other than I like having stuff that never needs repairs, but who doesn't like that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

But it would cost a lot more
;)
I guess when I say modern reliability I'm talking about how solidly the modern boutique stuff is
constructed
more than I am about components, so I'm a bit off topic for the thread.


Actually, I don't really think I have a point to make other than I like having stuff that never needs repairs, but who doesn't like that?

 

Cost more indeed but no loss of reliability if the parts are good to start with. As far as construction quality... Ive seen some new stuff that is really poorly made and some old gear that is rock solid. I dont think anything is completely maintainance free if you dont take care of it though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

'This may well lead to a startling revelation, or I may be 100% off base'


He says that at least 6 times.

 

 

That is true, but what he's saying makes a lot of sense, and I think he's just being self-deprecating.

 

I'm just a first-year electrical engineering student, so I don't know much, but I do know that when I asked a few of the professors in the department about this type of thing, they either:

 

a) laughed their asses off, or

b) were extremely skeptical without trying to seem condescending

 

Basically, either a part works (i.e. - does what it was designed to do) or it doesn't.

 

What I've taken away from those conversations is that sometimes a certain part may work better in concert with the other parts in the circuit, or it may work better at giving you the sound or performance you want, but there are no such things as good parts and bad parts. And parts definitely do not have mojo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

And parts definitely do not have mojo.

 

 

Ahh that is where you are wrong. There are some chips which do have mojo. They are no longer made. There are no replacements for them. There is nothing even close to them on the market now.

 

There are many vintage gears the price is just inflated by hype and legend, I wouldn't even bother unless I got a good deal on them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Ahh that is where you are wrong. There are some chips which do have mojo. They are no longer made. There are no replacements for them. There is nothing even close to them on the market now.


There are many vintage gears the price is just inflated by hype and legend, I wouldn't even bother unless I got a good deal on them.

 

 

idk, I guess it just depends on how you define mojo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I dunno, I just thought it was funny. The only reason I use analog over digital is because you can push analog in ways that you can't with digital. You engineers are trained to design things around certain parameters, in this 'normal' range any part will do. The mojo happens when you push the circuits beyond what they were designed for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

A lot of parts have noticibly different sounds. Its just easy to argue that they dont because its difficult to swap out 30 components in an amp instantly to hear the difference. Sometimes, as with carbon comps, the difference in sound is added noise and a high voltage coefficient of resistance which means the resistor is adding distortion to a signal. Since these are pleasing 2nd order harmonics, we like the sound. That can be called mojo, or it can be called resistor distortion. Either way, there is a difference in what comes out of the speakers. There is more to this stuff than whether or not electrons "care" about the type of component they hit because there is usually more at play then the value of the part - that is the only thing the electron notices.

 

 

Nonsense! I'm am E.D.'s partner. I have over 30 years of experience as an engineer, including 8 years in aerospace. I've been playing guitar even longer.

 

Where did you dig up the term "high voltage coefficient of resistance"? I've never heard of this. Do you have access to technical resources that I don't? The definining characteristic of a resistor is it's resistance. No engineer would refer to it as a "coefficient", as if it were some ancilliary characteristic to be taken into account in a particular circuit application. On the other hand, resistors DO have a voltage rating. Does their resistance change if you push them beyond their rated maximum voltage? You bet! And smoke comes out of them, too! Does this add to the distortion? Only if you consider "no sound" to be distortion.

 

A resistor should NEVER add noise. If it does, then any competent technician would remove it poste haste and toss it in the bin.

 

"Vintage" guitar amps and effects were not designed to provide the best "tone". In fact, I doubt that the word 'tone' meant any more to Leo Fender than a balance between low and high frequencies, and the only time he wrote the word on paper was when it was placed next to the schematic symbol for a pot. He didn't sit in his shop thumbing through catalogs looking for resistors and capacitors that provided the best "tone". He was looking for the parts that met his minimum specs and had the lowest cost. If there was such a thing as a capacitor that had better 'tone', then the electronic component manufacturers would have been falling all over themselves trying to promote their components as being closer to the ideal 'tone' than their competitors.

 

Before you can define how to get the tone you're looking for, you need to define what you mean by 'tone'. In almost every case, when a guitarist refers to tone he is talking about some form of distortion. This distortion was not an intentional characteristic in the design of old amplifiers. It was an artifact caused by the fact that they under-engineered everything. In most cases, this distortion manifests itself as saturation in the power tubes. It is this form of clipping that causes the second order harmonics, and not the resistors used.

 

iluvnoise makes a very good point. If you asked any credible engineer if one type of resistor or capacitor had better 'tone' than another, they would probably laugh at you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

let them laugh, i and 100s of others i have talked to hear a distinct difference between ceramics and film caps.

what are we to do, say we dont hear it because you say there is none?

if we hear it we hear it and we aint gonna lie about it or say otherwise.

 

i hear it in effects but i dont in guitars,pretty simple.

as for sprague vs's some cheapo greenie i hear nothing that even points to a difference but between mkt,ceramic and orange drops i do hear it so i'll say i hear it and if i hear it i couldnt give a {censored} what science says about it as its there, its real no matter what anyone says.

pretty {censored}ing simple concept really!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

well considering your in california and im not thats a little hard and over the net is ridiculous as its not real its all {censored}ing digitalized by the time anyone hears it.

 

i never expect anything when i choose a certain part cause i really just try all kindsa things until i get a sound i like, i dont buy mojo germanium transistors or tropical fish caps, i use what sounds good.

 

its like talking to a brick wall with some people cause they have 30+ of narrow minded experience and are so far up their own ass with the "knowledge" they supposedly have they wont even consider the possibility of something being other than what they believe it to be.

 

since thats how it is we'll leave it at that.

 

btw, if i was in cali i would come over to your house with a few of my effects with socketed components and show you,its more than just a swing in tolerances too,just so ya know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...