The use of Equipment, putting the BS myths to rest

[Zachman]

 

{censored}, I remember now. We did this all about a year ago. As I recollect, it ended with people listening to your clips. Fine, fine playing, Zachman, but your tone is {censored}ing atrocious. It embodies every awful rack cliche' created from the 80s hair/rack dinks. You can bet your ass Jimmy Page wouldn't play through tone like that. I certainly wouldn't. And as far as the reverb tones on Respect, your $2,000 dollar unit sounds worse than my $90 dollar Holy Grail. Sorry, bud, but if tone is in the ear of the beholder, I think you've got some earspuds getting in the way.

 

 

My goodness... HAHAHHA the tone on Respect, wasn't even my gear, and neither were several of those clips on my site, it was a clip I did playing direct to the board through a digitech modeler (don't remember the model), not my stuff. It does sort of make my point that certain gear works better than others though and the comparison of the digitech to your holy grail illustrates your condescension, it also illustrates that even YOU make comparisons. My comparisons just happen to be with high end gear, compared to less costly and quality gear that I own, and have owned. Actually the only clip I have on my site w/ my rack gear, is the MKIII Coliseum Clip, recorded through a roland vs880 in my living room, at TV volumes. Here it is, and you may very well dismiss it as being lame... I don't know. It certainly doesn't embody all of the tones I like or use.

 

http://www.netmusicians.org/files/14-whitesnake_Mark_III.mp3

 

Re: it sounding 80's- perhaps that is because it was a clip which showed several different songs from that time period, or perhaps you're just interested in making personal attacks. Either way, I made this clip because there were guys interested (at the time, I made it), in how the Mesa/Boogie MKIII Coliseum sounds going from Lead tones to clean tones. FYI, the reverb is a Lexicon PCM-80, Delay is the TC 2290, modulation is a combination of Intellifex and the PCM-80. On the gain part of the clip, I thought the use of effects was done very subtly.

 

These are more like the tones I use normally, and you may not think they're any good either, but I think they're alright:

 

http://www.precioustime.us/MP3/HellIsForChildren.mp3

 

http://www.precioustime.us/MP3/PreciousTime.mp3

[Saturday]

it sounds 80's.
that doesn't need to be bad obviusly, but - personally - i see the 80s as an horrible period for the electric guitar. escept for some post-punk and emerging jangle and indie bands, soundwise, the rest of it (80's guitar sounds) are atrocious to me. total lack of 'space' and ambience in the sounds.

[Zachman]

But somehow...I like it

Not sure what he used...

[Zachman]

it sounds 80's. that doesn't need to be bad obviusly, but - personally - i see the 80s as an horrible period for the electric guitar. escept for some post-punk and emerging jangle and indie bands, soundwise, the rest of it (80's guitar sounds) are atrocious to me. total lack of 'space' and ambience in the sounds.

 

 

When I think of 80's rack tones I think of guys like Allan Holdsworth, Andy Summers, Michael Landau, David Gilmour, Steve Stevens, Steely Dan band, Frippertronics, and don't really think that the lack of space/ambience thing applies there

[Zachman]

in all fairness, If your happy with a monster rig and thats what pleases your ears, go for that. If a simple setup of a couple of pedals pleases your ears, go for that. If a large setup of pedals with a simple looping system pleases your ears, go for that. Its all up to the individual and how the individual percieves "tone" IMO i've found my percieved "tone" in a vintage AMPEG head/cab with a few high end pedals and a simple looping system and 2 great basses. Im happy with this, but i wont stop searching for better, like any gear/tone head. My setup follows: Basses/guitars Fender MIM Jazz Bass w/lindy fralins Fender MIA P-Bass Fender Jaguar Baritone Custom -> Effects (EBS Multicomp->Pensa bass preamp->TU-2) -> LS-2 (in and return loop B for clean blend) (Boss RC-2-> Keeley AD-9-> ZVEX Woolly Mammoth-> Fulltone Bassdrive-> VintageFX Colordrive2-> Boss DD-6 -> TC Nova Reverb) -> LS-2 (loop A) LS-2 -> Radial JDI -> Amps AMPEG B-25 w/B-15 2x15 cab FBT 500 w/Musicman 1x15 cab

Amen

[RoboPimp]

this is what it all boils down to, you like ultra-processed, sterile guitar tones and the racks of outdated crap gets that for you, but why act surprised when no one agrees that it's the pinacle of good tone.

These are more like the tones I use normally, and you may not think they're any good either, but I think they're alright:

 

[Zachman]

And I can't help but think of many, many players who would blow you off the stage with either an acoustic guitar or a guitar->amp only setup. Oh well...

This was never an issue of who is the greatest guitarist, and I certainly never claimed to be. It was always intended as an informative post to show that there are options (a GOOD thing, IMO)

[Zachman]

this is what it all boils down to, you like ultra-processed, sterile guitar tones and the racks of outdated crap gets that for you, but why act surprised when no one agrees that it's the pinacle of good tone.

funny... ha ha

I like all kinds of tones, which is why I use the stuff I do, so I can get them. Just because someone has a huge rack or giant pedal board, doesn't mean that they have to use all the stuff all the time.

Again, another guy who misses the point (but we both know it's intentionally). It was never about "you should like this tone, and dislike that tone". It was about putting out the fact that there are options for guys, to explore if appropriate or interested.

That's all

[Zachman]

zachman = troll of the highest order You all been zachman'd!

 

 

and here you and your haunting mids crew are giving me {censored} in my thread... ahh the irony

[NoirAbattoir]

and here you and your haunting mids crew are giving me {censored} in my thread... ahh the irony

Why do you say condescending things? I wouldn't have bothered with this thread till you suggested people couldn't afford all the crap you have in your rig. I think the exact words you used were "boo hoo."

[RoboPimp]

funny, I think to a lot of people here you come off sounding like "this is what the pros use because it's better" - probably from your comments that pretty much say exactly that

Again, another guy who misses the point. It was never about "you should like this tone, and dislike that tone". It was about putting out the fact that there are options for guys, to explore if appropriate or interested. That's all

 

[slight-return]

It was about putting out the fact that there are options for guys, to explore if appropriate or interested. That's all

 

 

I fear the title (and the general tenor that follows from that) of the thread could be doing that goal a huge disservice.

[Zachman]

the thought of using your mesa amps and cheese rack gear makes me want to hurl. you couldn't pay me enough to touch that stuff. if you dig it... thats cool. quit {censored}ting on everyone who doesn't share your holier than thou logic of R A C K

 

You're mistakenly seeing me defending attacks, with explanations of options that players have, as {censored}ting on guys who don't share my philosophy or understanding or appreciation.

 

I was simply putting it out there that there are ways to do things, that are often misunderstood or often not realized at all, as evidenced with questions asked and answered right here in this thread. Obviously the extreme opposite side of the spectrum that the anti-rack crowd chants as their mantra is also true. There are people who are interested in this topic and see a value to being able to automate the effects moves, through MIDI, running a clean signal path, through the use of affordable loopers, and or getting their pedals off the floor, into a rack, where they get drinks spilled on them, useful.

 

I never advocated that there is only one way to do things. I merely suggested that there are other ways to do things, and the anti-rack crowd got their panties in a bunch, and tried to paint a picture saying:

 

How useless rack gear is: (Obviously NOT true, and if you're in studios all the time, you know it is BS)

 

How rack gear makes stuff sound overly processed (It doesn't have to, and if you're in studios all the time, you know that too)

 

How rack gear is too expensive (It doesn't have to be)

 

That I say if it isn't Ultra expensive that it sucks (NEVER happened EVER, though often times you get what you pay for, which is why major studios have $1M consoles etc... because they make a HUGE difference, and the same is true for rack gear or ANY other kind of gear)

[beardcom]

i play through just as much gear as you a large portion of the time, don't think any of those 'myths' are true, and still think you're a douche.

[Deaj]

...If you are going for that bare bones, stuck in the 60's/70's, "I like tap dancing, and noisy, capacitive loading", tone you're right- rack gear may not be for you.

 

Generalizations like this smack of ignorance. The equivalent (and no more or less valid) statement from an amp/pedalboard user might go something like:

 

If you are going for that sterile, over-processed, stuck in the 80's, "I like MIDI latency and having part of my signal chain running through A/D-D/A converters" tone then you're right - a simple analog signal chain may not be for you.

 

Now - I don't believe either of the above statements are valid. They are over-generalized, ignorant statements regarding the tone and utility of another players equipment. This sort of thing serves no purpose methinks.

 

A pedal board and amp need not be noisy or complicated, nor 'stuck in the 60's/70's. I have used rack systems in the past and I can definitely appreciate the merits. I use a pedal board and amp currently and I'm not missing anything by comparison. My current rig is simple, compact, quiet, highly flexible, durable/reliable, sounds amazing, and fits my needs precisely. The same could be said of my last rack system while I employed it.

 

It would not be possible to put together a rack system that sounds and responds just like my current rig. This is not to say that one could not build a rack system that sounds as good and responds to the player as well as my equipment. On the contrary - I know that it can be done. My last rack system provided exactly what I wanted in terms of tone, responsiveness, and flexibility and therefore it was the ideal and appropriate equipment for me at that time. I now prefer what my current equipment provides for me in terms of tone, responsiveness, portability, and flexibility and therefore it is the ideal and appropriate equipment for me at this time. Not better, not worse - just appropriate. Yours works for you, mine works for me.

 

Enjoy your rig and don't sweat what others think/say - these are unimportant distractions and non-factors.

[NoirAbattoir]

i play through just as much gear as you a large portion of the time, don't think any of those 'myths' are true, and still think you're a douche.

Hey, I'm about to go ship yer tele.

[Zachman]

I fear the title (and the general tenor that follows from that) of the thread could be doing that goal a huge disservice.

 

 

Perhaps, though- reading comprehension can quash that.

[Zachman]

Now - I don't believe either of the above statements are valid. They are over-generalized, ignorant statements regarding the tone and utility of another players equipment. This sort of thing serves no purpose methinks. A pedal board and amp need not be noisy or complicated, nor 'stuck in the 60's/70's. I have used rack systems in the past and I can definitely appreciate the merits. I use a pedal board and amp currently and I'm not missing anything by comparison. My current rig is simple, compact, quiet, highly flexible, durable/reliable, sounds amazing, and fits my needs precisely. The same could be said of my last rack system while I employed it. It would not be possible to put together a rack system that sounds and responds just like my current rig. This is not to say that one could not build a rack system that sounds as good and responds to the player as well as my equipment. On the contrary - I know that it can be done. My last rack system provided exactly what I wanted in terms of tone, responsiveness, and flexibility and therefore it was the ideal and appropriate equipment for me at that time. I now prefer what my current equipment provides for me in terms of tone, responsiveness, portability, and flexibility and therefore it is the ideal and appropriate equipment for me at this time. Not better, not worse - just appropriate. Yours works for you, mine works for me. Enjoy your rig and don't sweat what others think/say - these are unimportant distractions and non-factors.

 

Though in sifting through the meat of the thread, you and anyone else may gain some perspective and be able to assign that comments made in frustration, to refute those who wish to cling to their ignorance at what I AM saying, are not the important focal points.The idea that running stuff in a way that I've suggested as a possibility, to those who may find the concept useful, rather is what should be the focal point.

[Zachman]

i play through just as much gear as you a large portion of the time, don't think any of those 'myths' are true, and still think you're a douche.

 

How does his sort of Kindergarten name calling thing make YOU NOT a douche?

 

[Zachman]

 

funny, I think that a lot of people hear you come off sounding like, "this is what the pros use therefore it has merit" - probably from your comments that pretty much say exactly that

 

 

Fixed, and I would hope that this would be the perception

[Zachman]

I wouldn't have bothered with this thread till you suggested people couldn't afford all the crap you have in your rig. I think the exact words you used were "boo hoo."

 

You are obviously doing your best to be obtuse. I am not even sure how many times I've stated that this can be done inexpensively, (A LOT) yet here you are trying to paint the picture that I'm trying to say it's all about the money. NO... I'm not

 

IF you take the cost out of the equation, making gear available where otherwise not accessible, I'd be willing to bet that guys would get different and/or additional gear though, so what does that say? HMMM

[jeverist]

How did that illustrate me refuting myself? I'm sure I don't get it. Edge uses lots of different stuff on different songs to get different result, including but not limited to the 2290. I prefer the 2290, but have ALWAYS advocated using the right tools to get the result you're after.

 

 

Page 1, post 1 - you specifically refer to your 2290 as the pinnacle of excellence, and mention the DD-20 and a Line 6 unit as "lesser gear". Your words, which you now and previously contradict yourself with.

 

 

NO, what I said was I can get their tones, referring to the nazi purists, and that they can't get mine. Get it right, would ya. I NEVER said that guys without a system like mine, can't sound as good as me. PLEASE... get it right

 

 

Ah, but you did...for example from page 4(one of many such quotes you've made).

 

 

I bother, because it just sounds better...

 

 

And lets not forget about all the snide remarks about how most of the people who disagree with you are somehow jealous of your gear.

 

You might wish for everyone to forget all the condescending things you've said about those with "lesser" gear, but some of us have long memories!

 

 

This was never an issue of who is the greatest guitarist, and I certainly never claimed to be. It was always intended as an informative post to show that there are options (a GOOD thing, IMO)

 

 

There is a reason this ridiculous thread is 12 pages long, and its not because you were trying to be informative.

[slight-return]

Perhaps, though- reading comprehension can quash that.

 

 

 

Reading comprehension could actually magnify that problem (allowing folks to understand both the tansactional elements AND the elements of style/approach. Tha latter is where the problem can be)

 

Notice how een in the above there is continuation of that basic adversarial tone

 

[hey, it happens, it's WAAAYYY common with engineers.]

[Zachman]

 

There is a reason this ridiculous thread is 12 pages long, and its not because you were trying to be informative.

 

 

It's also because I have been contending with guys who like to troll, argue and are generally lacking in reading comprehension.

 

The whole, everyone is allowed to be offensive but me, routine is laughable. If someone gives me {censored}, I'll give them some right back. I make no apologies for my gear preferences, and no one elso should for theirs either. If it works for you GREAT, use it.

 

The whole racks vs pedals thing wasn't started by me, it came about because some sniveling whiners couldn't get past their own agendas, and decided to make it that way for themselves, and then try to assign their pitiful misinterpretation, to what I must've meant.

 

The fact is that I put out some useful info here, and I am NOT saying it is the ONLY way, or the RIGHT way, just that it's ANOTHER way to approach things. If the info is useful to you, GREAT, if it isn't fine.

 

I am not advocating MY rigs merits is what everyone else should have. I openly admit that my rig is over the top and beyond justification, however; feel no need to justify it as I like it, it does what I want it to do, and quite frankly, I've also stated that I normally use it for studio use and for live use, I use gear much less involved, and of lesser quality re: the DD2 example, which was put up to contrast the 2290, and show that even though the 2290 is of a higher quality that it isn't required to get good results.

 

I have a hard time believing that you don't get that, and assume that you're just trying to continue a furthering of your agenda, which is apparently that:

 

*gear is just gear and there is no place in the world for discerning quality, and personal preference.

 

*racks are a stupid idea with no place for anyone, and that if someone uses them that it automatically means that they are over utilizing everything, making stuff sound overly processed

 

*The idea that pedals can be used either in a rack, through a switching system, allowing for benefits that would otherwise not be available is also a useless concept, or that running pedals on the floor through a switching system is also a useless endeavor.

 

FINE, your position is noted and anyone who wishes to adopt either philosophy re: use of equipment is free to decide for themselves, what works best for their applications.

 

What irks me the most are the guys slamming the concept, who've NEVER tried it or experienced the difference that it DOES make, and dismiss the idea's merits outright, with ZERO point of reference, or experience on the matter. These are the types who cling to their ignorance, and tend to talk the most {censored}. Those with the total lack of experience in the matters that I've outlined, tend to shout the loudest, about how it is stupid.

[Zachman]

 

 

 

Well, perhaps you're right, however; I'm an adult and baby sitting is not my job. Political Correctness is so ANTI-Rock and Roll, I am not inclined to be so diplomatic while under hostile attack.

 

What irks me the most are the guys slamming the concept, who've NEVER tried it or experienced the difference that it DOES make, and dismiss the idea's merits outright, with ZERO point of reference, or experience on the matter. These are the types who cling to their ignorance, and tend to talk the most {censored}. Those with the total lack of experience in the matters that I've outlined, tend to shout the loudest, about how it is stupid.

 

People can make of that what they will. If the info for approaching using pedals is found useful then great, if not, fine.