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The use of Equipment, putting the BS myths to rest


Zachman
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Even better than a TC 2290 is a Korg SDD-3000 or a Lexicon PCM 42
:D

 

I had both the SDE3000 and the PCM42 and they have their own sound for sure, but... the 2290 is so much more than what those units do that it wins, in my book, for it's Dynamic delay ducking alone, not to mention it's 32 sec. sampling capability, fast trigger options and the ability to act as a controller w/ 4 mono loops and 1 stereo loop. ;)

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Zachman, I know you're a really intelligent guy who knows what he's talking about and has a good ear and playing ability. In all honesty, though, many if not all of your posts/threads on this subject (rack gear vs. all comers) are horribly passive-aggressive, confrontational and arrogant.

"Don't get me wrong, it CAN be expensive, but that depends on the individual, like everything else, and how much compromise they are willing to or NOT willing to contend with."

Translation: Yes, rack gear is expensive, but using anything but the sweet rack gear I use is a compromise on the ultimate, irrefutable value of TONE.

"It doesn't have to be like this, but the guys who think they can get their pedals to do what something like this can are smoking crack."

Translation: Listen guys, I don't want to be the Roman army of enlightenment, but seriously, your pedals suck, you can never compete with your pedals and MIDI switchers - racks or death.

"Agreed, however; if someone has only eaten Soda Crackers, and wants to insist that they are the best or think that is all there is, and loves them- Then has a Ritz, steak, a cheeseburger, or whatever... that they've never had before, they may discover something that they like better than a plain old soda cracker."

Translation: I don't even need a translation here, because this is the same argument given by many aliens in sci-fi movies - hey there human race, you've been living on your {censored} planet with {censored} technology; all you have to do is accept our rule and you will be granted with long lives, better toasters, more excellent sounding 40 foot synthesizers like in Close Encounters of the Third Kind, etc. Then the human race is enslaved and raped for all eternity.

"There really are NO weak spots in this setup."

Translation: I am the diety of post-guitar signal-to-amp tone.

Really Zachman, I have no problem with you, as I have no problem with my setup, but your attitude toward anything but your setup is just infuriating. You've got this stance of "racks or death" that is incredibly grating on people. Pedal boards have inferior tone that can never, ever compete with your racks, racks have no weak spots whatsoever (like pedals, which are chock-full-o weaknesses), if you aren't using racks you're merely an ingrate stuck in a world of medocrity - someone who hasn't had caviar or Grey Goose or whatever {censored} vodka and side dish the elite of society recommend.

I just feel like threads like this, especially in the way you structured it (here's your question; and you're wrong, of course; and here are my rack-oriented answers that are inarguable) are really, really inappropriate regarding the conditions around here. If we could all afford awesome 8ft. tall racks with all of our 60's and 70's noisy pedals looped in bypass we would, but 95% of us can't. The odd thing is that many, many awesome records and singles were made without the benefit of racks and rack loopers. I'm no fan of the "old and vintage is better no matter what" for the same reason that I'm not a fan of the "RACKS OR DEATH" approach you use.

Have some faith and an open ear - your tone and approach is not the end all be all of guitar. While you may like your Eventide and Axe 35,000 ATGYRUF racks and even consider them the "BEST" (all else can {censored} off) of the non guitar-straight-to-amp approach, at least dont' be a Nazi about it.

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Exactly. Which is why The Edge might take 2290's on the road for programability, he's said interviews he much prefers the sound of a Korg SDD-3000, which was a much cheaper unit. And he still uses the DMM from time to time to this day. He has some monster racks, but there are a lot of pedals, fairly cheap rack devices like the Korg A3, and even some line 6 stuff.

To say that you are getting the "best" sound by having a midi switching/routing system is at best subjective and at worst crap. There are plenty of guitarists with some of the best tones imaginable(SRV, Eric Johnson, Warren Haynes, Derek Trucks, Jeff Beck, BB King etc.) that have a relatively simple guitar->a few pedals->amp set up.

Not to mention, guitar amps are lo-fi by nature. We don't run our guitars through audiophile grade systems by any means. Perhaps that explains why a lo-fi tape delay sounds better than any digital delay in many people's opinion. Or alternatively, why a guitar going through an Eventide device comes out sounding like something other than a guitar.


Oh, yeah, of course. It's kind of stupid to directly compare two very different delays like that, anyway.
:bor:

The question that begs to be answered is, "What if said person has an unlimited amount of funds to purchase a delay. Will he go for the DD-2 or 2290?" No one can answer that question. The 2290 may be the best available on paper, but in the dude's hands is what really matters, regardless of price or functionality. I mean yeah, the 2290 is probably technically miles ahead of a DMM, but does it have that certain something that the DMM has in some people's hands? No clue. It might. Might not. Doesn't make one better than the other.
:)

Oh well. As much as I love these conversations, I need my sleep. Take care, dude.
:cool:

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Have some faith and an open ear - your tone and approach is not the end all be all of guitar. While you may like your Eventide and Axe 35,000 ATGYRUF racks and even consider them the "BEST" (all else can {censored} off) of the non guitar-straight-to-amp approach, at least dont' be a Nazi about it.

 

The W/D/W approach that I like, is partially because it does utilize the guitar to amp approach, though it also allows for all of the other things that it does too.

 

I don't attack people for their gear, but I get {censored} from people here, for mine all the time, so hopefully you'll pardon my lack of apologetics for preferring the gear I do. I prefer what I do because I've used most of the stuff that the guys here talk about in every conceivable configuration, + the stuff that guys here don't have any experience with and have chosen what I have to suite my needs, and desires.

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Not to mention, guitar amps are lo-fi by nature. We don't run our guitars through audiophile grade systems by any means. Perhaps that explains why a lo-fi tape delay sounds better than any digital delay in many people's opinion. Or alternatively, why a guitar going through an Eventide device comes out sounding like something other than a guitar.



I can't help but think of guys like Michael Landau, and how your description of using the gear I am talking about, just doesn't apply. Oh well... :p

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allssss i know is ALL of the bands i truly LOVE use
single effect pedals
to record pure goldenessity magic.
:love:
:love:
:love:
:love:
:love:

that being said.....
ALOT
of the bands i HATE use rack gear. to me that speaks volumes.
:cop:
:cop:
:cop:
:cop:
:cop:

 

Fair enough, though ALL of the bands you truly LOVE, when they are recording using their single pedal to "record pure goldenessity magic", that you consider that you're hearing a lot more than that, on the recording, even though you apparently lack the ability to discern that you're hearing: compression, reverb, multi-tracked guitars etc... psst, what you are hearing on the record isn't what it sounded like in the room, when the part was tracked. (Not likely anyway)

 

The lack of comprehension is AMAZING. This was NEVER about using rack gear vs pedals vs purist guitar straight to amp, except to the sensitive whiners who lack in the reading comprehension department. It was, about using pedals, OR rack gear OR a combination of BOTH, through an affordable switching system and the benefits that are the result of doing such. Bringing the switching system for pedal use to light, so that people would have information to choose for themselves, whether or not it is was something that they should consider as a beneficial OPTION for them.

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Are you a woman? This emotional drivel is stupid...



I don't take advice from misogynistic assholes who live in a world where women = emotional drivel and men = cold hard logic of the rack setup. It's pretty apparent from this thread that you've got a hell of an emotional attachment to your setup, but of course you wouldn't see that as womanly.

Sorry, been trying to keep it civil, but I don't abide that low-grade bull{censored}. See you never.

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I don't take advice from misogynistic assholes who live in a world where women = emotional drivel and men = cold hard logic of the rack setup. It's pretty apparent from this thread that you've got a hell of an
emotional
attachment to your setup, but of course you wouldn't see that as womanly.


Sorry, been trying to keep it civil, but I don't abide that low-grade bull{censored}. See you never.

 

Oh.... get the sand out of your vagina, little miss sensitive. :p If you can't see that the moronic comment I was addressing, was laced with bull{censored}, and was begging for some deserved {censored} to be thrown back, then your opinion is truly worthless.

 

The facts are: people have options, and I figure it's best to point them out and let them decide if they want to explore them.

 

If a guy has a pedal board w/ 10+ pedals and wants to eliminate tap dancing from their necessary routine while playing, and would find it useful to automate their pedal moves by using a MIDI system, as MANY MANY do, like a rack setup is able to do, along with the other benefits that I discussed, that they may appreciate knowing that IS an option for them.

 

I am not insisting that they go that route, I couldn't care less. I just know that I appreciated becoming aware of the ability to do things in several different ways, as it has proven useful when I had to figure out creative ways to get things done.

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Gear talk...


Studio setup:

I mic the cabinet (see below)
with a Shure SM57
through a Chandler Limited LTD-1 mic pre.

That signal is fed to the line in on the Custom Audio effects rack.

The rack has the following in it:

DBX 160A Compressor

Tri Stereo Chorus 618

Eventide H3000 D/SE Harmonizer

Lexicon MPX-1

Lexicon PCM 70

TC G-Force processor

Two Lexicon PCM 42's (left and right)

Custom Audio Super Tremolo

Pedals Before The Amp Are:

Vintage Tube Screamer TS-808

Roger Mayer Voodoo Vibe

Boss Volume Pedal FV500H

I use this setup only for recording because the line level processing is AFTER the DRY

cabinet (in other words, I insert the rack effects between the dry cabinet and

the recording console).


Live setup:

Guitar into Custom Audio RS10 switcher.

All the pedals are before the amp, they are:

Maxon DS-9 Sonic Distortion

Roger Mayer Voodoo 1

Arion Stereo Chorus (in mono)

Boss VB-2

Tycobrahe Octavia

Custom Audio Super Tremolo

Custom Audio Black Cat Vibe

Cry Baby Wah Wah

Boss Volume Pedal FV500H

I also use a Lexicon MPX-1 Processor in the effects loop of the amp for reverb and delay,

or I mike my cabinet and send it to the Lexicon MPX-1 which then goes to a pair of wet

cabinets (2 Custom Audio 2x10 cabs with Celestion Vintage 10 speakers)


Sometimes I'll use a small pedal board, its small and easy to cart around...

All the pedals are before the amp, they are:

Maxon SD-9 Sonic Distortion

Roger Mayer Voodoo-1

Real McCoy Wah Wah (red)

Arion stereo chorus (in mono, true bypass mod)

Roger Mayer Voodoo Vibe

Boss volume pedal FV500H

I also use a Lexicon MPX-1 Processor in the effects loop of the amp for reverb and delay,

or I mike my cabinet and send it to the Lexicon MPX-1 which then goes to a pair of wet

cabinets (2 Custom Audio 2x10 cabs with Celestion Vintage 10 speakers)


These are the amps I use live and in the studio:

Custom Audio OD100 "Classic"

Suhr 100 watt "Classic"

Dumble "Slide Winder"

Phil Jameson custom 30 watt

Suhr "Badger" 18 watt

'67 Plexy Marshall head

'64 Super Reverb with Dumble "Ultra Phonix" mod

'64 Deluxe Reverb with Dumble "Ultra Phonix" mod

2x12 or 4x12 Kerry Wright open back cabinet w/Celestion "Heritage Series" G12-65s

Bogner Straight 4x12 w/Celestion Vintage 30s


These are the guitars I mainly use live and in the studio:

Suhr Stratocaster with Suhr FL's neck and middle, Suhr SSV in bridge,

Suhr Silent Single Coil System

Suhr Telecaster with Suhr S-90 in neck, Suhr Classic Tele in bridge

'97 Fender Custom Shop Stratocaster with Suhr FL's neck and middle,

Suhr SSV in bridge, Suhr Silent Single Coil System

Tyler Stratocaster with DiMarzio 2.2 neck and middle, Suhr SSV in bridge

Tyler Stratocaster with EMG pickups

'69 Black Fender Stratocaster with Suhr FL's neck and middle, Suhr SSV in bridge,

Suhr Silent Single Coil System

'68 Sunburst Fender Stratocaster with DiMarizo 2.2 neck & middle, Suhr SSV in bridge

'63 Fiesta Red Fender Stratocaster

'63 Gibson SG

'68 Gold Top Les Paul (with PAF humbuckers)



and you're miking everything with ONE 100 bucks mic??

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and you're miking everything with
ONE 100 bucks mic
??

 

umm... I think you missed the part where I pointed out that is Michael Landau's setup. If you are not familiar with him, I suggest listening to the Tales from the Bulge CD. This guy is a tone GOD, and has been the #1 session guy for so many years, I think he's got it down pretty well, and apparently LOTS of people agree.

 

 

http://www.abstractlogix.com/interview_view.php?idno=95

 

Michael Landau (born in 1958) is a pre-eminent session musician and guitarist who has played on albums since the early 1980s with artists as varied as Seal, James Taylor, Helen Watson and Miles Davis. Landau, along with fellow session guitarists Waddy Wachtel, Steve Lukather and Dann Huff, played on the majority of major label releases recorded in LA from the 1980s-1990s. He has reportedly appeared on over 600 albums and soundtrack recordings.

 

Born and raised in Los Angeles, as a teenager he quickly became very interested in jazz and electric jazz music. In the mid-1970s he toured the west coast as part of The Robben Ford Band, at 19 joined Boz Scaggs for a world tour and by the age of 20 he started to do session work. Notable sessions over the coming years would include Pink Floyd, Miles Davis, Joni Mitchell, BB King, James Taylor, Seal, Ray Charles and Rod Stewart. In 1984, he toured and recorded with Joni Mitchell, and can be seen on the Mitchell DVD "Refuge Of The Roads". In 1989 he released his first solo studio album "Tales from the Bulge", an instrumental record released in Japan and on Creatchy Records in the US. In 1990 he formed the blues rock band "Burning Water" with his brother Teddy Landau, David Frazee and Carlos Vega; this band put out four discs of original material and played in Japan and the USA. In 1993 he won the readers poll for "Best Studio Guitarist" in "Guitar Player Magazine" and in 1994 formed "The Raging Honkies" with Teddy Landau and Abe Laboriel Jr. They released 2 discs and toured Europe and the US. In 2001 he released a double live album of original material and a studio album "The Star Spangled Banner" on his own label 'Unconscious Records'. He currently tours and performs with his own group, The Wreckers, Robben Ford, The Jazz Ministry, Stolen Fish, Hazey Jane and James Taylor. His most recent project, a double live album was released in October 2006 in the USA, Europe and Japan.

 

In the early 1980s, he was also in the band Maxus that featured future Los Angeles session musician stalwarts Robbie Buchanan, Jay Gruska, and Doane Perry. Landau was also in competition with high school bandmate Lukather to become the guitarist for Toto in the late 1970s.

 

Michael Landau is married to singer/songwiter/guitarist Karen Martin Landau, with whom he performs in the bands Stolen Fish and Hazey Jane. His brother Teddy Landau is married to singer-songwriter Michelle Branch.

 

His current band, The Michael Landau Group, undertook a 16-date European tour in April 2007,

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in all fairness,
If your happy with a monster rig and thats what pleases your ears, go for that.

If a simple setup of a couple of pedals pleases your ears, go for that.

If a large setup of pedals with a simple looping system pleases your ears, go for that.

Its all up to the individual and how the individual percieves "tone"

IMO i've found my percieved "tone" in a vintage AMPEG head/cab with a few high end pedals and a simple looping system and 2 great basses. Im happy with this, but i wont stop searching for better, like any gear/tone head.
My setup follows:

Basses/guitars
Fender MIM Jazz Bass w/lindy fralins
Fender MIA P-Bass
Fender Jaguar Baritone Custom
->
Effects
(EBS Multicomp->Pensa bass preamp->TU-2) -> LS-2 (in and return loop B for clean blend)
(Boss RC-2-> Keeley AD-9-> ZVEX Woolly Mammoth-> Fulltone Bassdrive-> VintageFX Colordrive2-> Boss DD-6 -> TC Nova Reverb) -> LS-2 (loop A)
LS-2 -> Radial JDI
->
Amps
AMPEG B-25 w/B-15 2x15 cab
FBT 500 w/Musicman 1x15 cab

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umm... I think you missed the part where I pointed out that is Michael Landau's setup. If you are not familiar with him, I suggest listening to the Tales from the Bulge CD. This guy is a tone GOD, and has been the #1 session guy for so many years, I think he's got it down pretty well, and apparently LOTS of people agree.


http://www.abstractlogix.com/interview_view.php?idno=95



Ah now TBH, that is a bit of a joke.
I've used the shure on all my recordings, but not just on its own, its really only there to compliment other mics.

You cannot beat a Brauner VMA or VM1 miked setup, you can use that on its own.

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You've just refuted yourself twice here, at least.

I can't help but think of guys like Michael Landau, and how your description of using the gear I am talking about, just doesn't apply. Oh well...
:p


And I can't help but think of many, many players who would blow you off the stage with either an acoustic guitar or a guitar->amp only setup. Oh well... :p

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zachman = troll of the highest order


You all been zachman'd!



I only wish this were true, but you and I both know that he believes what he says 100%... the only thing his rack needs and will never have is a time machine to take him back to when people thought all that silly tone killing mess was really something special.

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Landau, along with fellow session guitarists
Waddy Wachtel
, Steve Lukather and Dann Huff, played on the majority of major label releases recorded in LA from the 1980s-1990s. He has reportedly appeared on over 600 albums and soundtrack recordings.



Speaking of Waddy Watchel, what specific gear did he use throughout the 1980s?

His tone on the live performance of Stevie Nick's Edge of Seventeen in 1981 sounds like a cat screeching while being swung by its tail!

[YOUTUBE]aaochA4mmAw[/YOUTUBE]

But somehow...I like it :D

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{censored}, I remember now. We did this all about a year ago. As I recollect, it ended with people listening to your clips. Fine, fine playing, Zachman, but your tone is {censored}ing atrocious. It embodies every awful rack cliche' created from the 80s hair/rack dinks. You can bet your ass Jimmy Page wouldn't play through tone like that. I certainly wouldn't. And as far as the reverb tones on Respect, your $2,000 dollar unit sounds worse than my $90 dollar Holy Grail. Sorry, bud, but if tone is in the ear of the beholder, I think you've got some earspuds getting in the way.

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Fair enough, though ALL of the bands you truly LOVE, when they are recording using their single pedal to "record pure goldenessity magic", that you consider that you're hearing a lot more than that, on the recording, even though you
apparently lack the ability to discern that you're hearing
: compression, reverb, multi-tracked guitars etc... psst, what you are hearing on the record isn't what it sounded like in the room, when the part was tracked. (Not likely anyway)


The lack of comprehension is AMAZING. This was NEVER about using rack gear vs pedals vs purist guitar straight to amp, except to the sensitive whiners who lack in the reading comprehension department. It was, about using pedals, OR rack gear OR a combination of BOTH, through an affordable switching system and the benefits that are the result of doing such. Bringing the switching system for pedal use to light, so that people would have information to choose for themselves, whether or not it is was something that they should consider as a beneficial OPTION for them.



im sorry.. do you know me? you are a complete ignorant ass to just assume the above! wow :eek:.

FYI zach.... i have been recording in "world class" studios for about 12 years now. i know how records are made and what rack gear is used(in the studio). the simple fact is that these bands i speak of DO use single stomp boxes(boss, EHX blah blah blah) to create tones that are universally enjoyed and pretty {censored}ing hard to deny. over-dubs, compression, reverb ..... uhhhhhh no {censored}. these are tools/steps used in making recrods. im simply talking about when the guitars are tracked they would rather use a dd-5 and a POG than all your rack gear(so would i).

do you REALLY think that more $$ = better "quality". a good producer uses ANYTHING to the "the" sound. this means a low end guitar compressor(pedal) for vocals or a 5 watt amp that is half busted for a guitar tone... etc etc.

the thought of using your mesa amps and cheese rack gear makes me want to hurl. you couldn't pay me enough to touch that stuff. if you dig it... thats cool. quit {censored}ting on everyone who dosen't share your holier than thou logic of R A C K :cop:

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You're just bragging about how you have alot of good gear. While it might be a great for you, it's not for most people.



Your reading comprehension isn't too good is it? I didn't bring up my gear. Trolls who went on the attack did. Furthermore, there are guys here on this very forum, who have WAY more gear than I, and I am pretty sure that EVERYONE here in the effects forum, uses or are interested in using effects gear.

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