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The use of Equipment, putting the BS myths to rest


Zachman

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Well, perhaps you're right,

 

 

take a step back and consider it, the thing we are discussing is way common among engineers

 

however;

 

you know what they say about everything before the but'

 

I'm an adult and baby sitting is not my job.

 

Political Correctness is so ANTI-Rock and Roll

 

 

it don't have to be rock n roll

 

politically correct? eh, it's become a loaded term...try thinking abt it more like inter-team communication...provided communicating some information is the goal

 

I am not inclined to be so diplomatic while under hostile attack

 

 

Neuropsychologically people generally arent -that comes back to the amygdala activation we were talking about last night. It can have some problematic effects, such as modulating our perception of when we are being attacked.

 

 

What irks me the most are the guys slamming the concept...

 

I think that's a major part of the problem...you are already irked (that darn amygdala!), so the tenor of the thread started already charged, even in the title

 

 

People can make of that what they will.

 

that they will do...with or without permission

 

If the info for approaching using pedals is found useful then great, if not, fine.

 

really feel that way, grok that

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I would really like to try a W/D/W set up. Stereo and awesomeness. But that's an ungodly amount of money. Unless maybe I found 3 used deluxe reverbs. $1500!

 

one head or combo of your choice, an inexpensive stereo power amp and 2 1x12 cabs is easily affordable within your budget

 

I just put together a Mesa MKIV wicker wood combo W/D/W rig for a friend for your budget.

 

It's doable. ;)

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take a step back and consider it, the thing we are discussing is way common among engineers



however;


you know what they say about everything before the but'


I'm an adult and baby sitting is not my job.


Political Correctness is so ANTI-Rock and Roll



it don't have to be rock n roll


politically correct? eh, it's become a loaded term...try thinking abt it more like inter-team communication...provided communicating some information is the goal


I am not inclined to be so diplomatic while under hostile attack



Neuropsychologically people generally arent -that comes back to the amygdala activation we were talking about last night. It can have some problematic effects, such as modulating our perception of when we are being attacked.




What irks me the most are the guys slamming the concept...


I think that's a major part of the problem...you are already irked (that darn amygdala!), so the tenor of the thread started already charged, even in the title




People can make of that what they will.


that they will do...with or without permission


If the info for approaching using pedals is found useful then great, if not, fine.


really
feel that way, grok that

 

You apparently like to postulate philosophical concepts and display your affinity for psycho analysis, using industry terms, unrelated to the music industry, as a way of trying to establish some semblance of credibility, and intelligence. The problem is that it doesn't address the pro or con side of the merits of the thread's topic, making you look like a tool, and while your psychoanalysis of the social interaction that occurs on the internet, may be an interesting topic, (to you) it would perhaps be of interest somewhere other than the effects forum.

 

If you want to impress me, discuss the merits of the topic. If you just want to have an internet joust,

 

Shut_The_Hell_UP_Gum.jpg

 

Move on, noob.

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Why the hell do you go through so much trouble to try and convince us?:blah:

If you think that rack gear is easier/better/... than traditional equipment, then why don't you make sure that you're the only one having that sound?

I can hardly imagine that you actually want to be the good guy here by giving us all that valuable info.

Seems more like you're just trying to convince yourself of all your overexpensive purchases. And yes, I know that rack gear doesn't have to cost a lot, but goddamned dude, your rack gear does.:poke:

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I've never bothered to listen to anything by Michael Landau before today. So Youtube was popped onto the screen and here he was. Oh my. What is good abotu his tone? Yes he can play and he has clearly got technical ability. Tonewise I thought he was vile. And there's my problem with racks: I associate them with tones and music I don't like. The Edge, Andy Summers, Landau... not my thing. I then listen to Johnny Marr and find pictures of his gear with Modest Mouse:

 

http://flickr.com/photos/makers/348949367/

 

Zach, I'd actually be interested in you digging up some rack users who don't sound like MOR dudes or 80's throwbacks. I remember Ronald Jones in his Flaming Lips days used an Eventide unit, maybe two at once. I love his sound. What abotu throwing some rack users who fall into the indie-alternative-freaky sound category for us non-trad rock fans?

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You apparently like to postulate philosophical concepts and display your affinity for psycho analysis, using industry terms, unrelated to the music industry, as a way of trying to establish some semblance of credibility, and intelligence.

 

 

The industrial engineering terms...that's b/c we are both engineers so it's some common ground for communication

 

the psych stuff that comes more from hanging out with the wife and her crew (behavioral neuropsychology researcher before moving to law) so it's just something I'm used to.

Kind of like you were mentioning with programming, once you dig on some of the behavioral neuropsych concepts it can be really helpful in looking at behavior

That's there

1) as a point of interest

2) to help you understand where some of the reactions come from (you mentioned a couple of "reactions" yourself earlier)

 

 

 

The problem is that it doesn't address the pro or con side of the merits of the thread's topic,

 

 

a couple of thoughts on that

 

1) it doesnt have to be a "pro" or "con" discussion (and the or doesn't have to be exclusive)

2) the topic, as defined even in the thread title, does contain terms like "BS" which is interfering with the stated goal of "geting the info out"...so we've got a fundamental problem of trying to build a foundation for discussion on ground that isn't stable - it's fundamental to getting the topic off the ground

 

 

 

 

 

 

while your psychoanalysis of the social interaction that occurs on the internet, may be an interesting topic, (to you) it would perhaps be of interest somewhere other than the effects forum.

 

 

I think it fits nicely here b/c there are identifiable problems with social interaction in this thread specifically that have negative impact on the thread as a vehicle for information.

 

hey, this is a normal part of it too - as an engineer think abt how the dev and the QA/QC teams interoperate

 

If you want to impress me, discuss the merits of the topic.

 

I'm not looking to impress you - help you sure - but not impress you

 

 

If you just want to have an internet joust,

 

 

that's that amygdala activation/perception thing - not jousting, just discussing

 

 

Move on, noob.

 

that's the catch with a forum system...it's a forum!

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I can hardly imagine that you actually want to be the good guy here by giving us all that valuable info.

Seems more like you're just trying to convince yourself of all your overexpensive purchases. And yes, I know that rack gear doesn't have to cost a lot, but goddamned dude, your rack gear does.:poke:

 

 

I didn't pay retail for anything in my rigs, except for the custom built stuff in the big rig. There are guys here who have more actual $$$ invested in their huge collections of guitars, amps and pedals.

 

Believe what you will, regarding my motives here, but judge for yourself whether the topics have merit based on you own experience. Don't take anyone's word for gospel truth. If the idea seems like it may spark and interest, test it for yourself.

 

You guys with the chips on your shoulders don't seem to be able to grasp onto the concept that I use simple setups, besides the big rig, and that when I make comparisons that they're based on actual experience with with the gear that I am discussing, Lots of gear, in every conceivable configuration. My comparisons aren't based on untested theories, or internet opinion polls.

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not jousting, just discussing

 

Fantastic, your help to explain in technical and practical detail the following applications should be of a huge benefit.

 

So, what are your experiences with running several pedals in series vs running the same pedals through a switching system? (mono, W/D, stereo, W/D/W, series or parallel, multi-amp switching setup, heads or combos, or a combination of both)

What did you find to be the benefits or losses of doing that?

 

Which pedals, which processors, which switching system/systems, which amps have you done all of the aforementioned with? What did you find to be the benefits or losses of doing that?

 

Were you running them in front of the amp, in mono? stereo? W/D? What did you find to be the benefits or losses of doing that?

 

OR

 

Were you running them in the loop of the amp, through a line out box and/or re-amping your signal? What did you find to be the benefits or losses of doing that?

 

OR

 

Have you done it with all of the mentioned configurations? If so, a detailed account of the equipment used would be greatly appreciated.

 

What are your thoughts and experiences w/ running several pedals directly in front of the amp and the problems associated with input level clipping, when running several pedals in series, if any? Any advice for those who have issues like that., who don't wish to mod their amps, that don't have loops? What did you find to be the benefits or losses of doing that?

 

What are your thoughts and experiences w/ using several pedals in series loops vs, parallel loops? Also rack gear and also the combination of pedals and rack gear? What did you find to be the benefits or losses of doing that?

 

What are your experiences with utilizing MIDI control to switch pedals, rack gear or a combination of Both? What did you find to be the benefits or losses of doing that?

 

What genres of music have you employed all of the above techniques for routing your signal path, and which of the above mentioned methods did you find worked best for you, with each particular genre that you've done them with? and why?

 

 

Please discuss your specific personal experiences and findings

 

:snax:

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Fantastic: so what are your experiences with running several pedals in series vs running the same pedals through a switching system?

 

Well, lets see - I used to wrench in the late 80s early 90s through college...Lou, KY (I was a CS/CE - classical guitar double major...eventually dropped the classical guit as a major)

 

like so many others I went through a lot of stuff over the years

 

 

switching systems include some of the earlier rocktron stuff - the shop I wrenched at carried the rocktron stuff at the time (I understand Bradshaw was involved in the patchmate, but to what extent with the design and parts spec dunno...some of the eariler rocktron suff wasnt specd spectacularly well I thought)

 

oh a lot of stuff I'd put together (started with some...admittedly, pretty wacky hardwired switch logic, then to simpler gates, finally moved to mu-control)

[like so many of us, I had a lot of help along the way]

 

 

 

 

... Please discuss your experiences and findings.

 

 

are you really interested?

 

I mean you did already ask "how about a pack of shut the hell up[/ui]"

 

and you did use the :snax:

 

icon which seems somewhat belittling and dismissive

 

which could suggest you arent really interested

 

That does bring us back come back to the fundamental problem we were talking about earlier with the thread, the communication style, an adversarial approach, etc

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"


and you did use the
:snax:

icon which seems somewhat belittling and dismissive


which could suggest you arent
really
interested


That does bring us back come back to the fundamental problem we were talking about earlier with the thread, the communication style, an adversarial approach, etc

 

If you can find it within yourself to limit the relevant information that you volunteer, to a scope that would be conducive to further the understanding of those who would be interested in the concept of using switching systems to run their gear (be they pedals, rack processors, or a combination of both) and the interaction of the gear that may be useful, then sure, I'm interested.

 

RE: Bob Bradshaw's involvement w/ Rocktron: Here is an excerpt I have on my site about it:

 

What exactly was the Rocktron product?

 

What was it? It was called an RSB-18 switching system, it was a rackmount unit and a footcontroller. They were integral, you couldn't separate them and they had to be used together. It was a nice system, it was pretty flexable, with built in noise reduction and all kinds of extra bells and whistles that weren't really necessary as far as I was concerned but they felt were necessary to reach a broad base of people. They kind of bit off more then they could chew, meaning they took on this project and realized it was probably a little more they really wanted to deal with. They want to go to a dealer, sell them a hush unit, the guy plugs it in and goes. This product required a lot of learning and a lot of education to dealers and such to try to teach these people how to use it. It ain't for everybody. Some guys are just happy having their little pedals on the floor and try to get them to learn how to use a switching system that's kind of difficult.

 

:: Was that anything like the Rocktron All Access pedal?

 

No, this was a whole different thing.

 

:: Was the Patchmate from the same time?

 

Yes, that's another piece that we collaborated on. I came up with the idea for the Patchmate and they kind of put it out there and that was another one that kind of

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This is a train wreck and your abrasive self-righteous attitude is completely responsible. You are not informing, you are lambasting. You are not helping, you're exposing yourself as a total dick. A wealthy dick with a respectable technical know-how regarding guitar gear, but a dick nonetheless. You're certainly not winning any converts with your incredible defensiveness and acerbic tone.

 

Class act!

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Exactly, much appreciated.

 

 

If you think that you should be able to come up to me and smack me, then be treated with a smile, I don't recommend it, as a well thought out plan.

 

If you were already aware of some of the methods of doing what I am talking about, then ok, that's cool, if not and you read something that sparked an idea, then GREAT!!!! (Sincerely)

 

If you have any questions, I will do my very best to be as helpful as I can. If you have any direct experience that may help those who may be interested in learning more about doing this, than please don't hesitate to post your findings, ideas etc...

 

I apologize for being so abrasive to you, and extend a peace offering. If you accept, then I propose a fresh start. If you don't then, I tried... I unfortunately can't un-ring a bell, but I can try to move forward with a positive spirit. Agreed??? hehhe a funny, to try and lighten the mood

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If you can find it within yourself to limit the relevant information that you volunteer, to a scope that would be conducive to further the understanding of those who would be interested in the concept of using switching systems to run their gear (be they pedals, rack processors, or a combination of both) and the interaction of the gear that may be useful, then sure, I'm interested.

 

 

That's the deal - I feel that everything I offered was to be conducive to further the understanding

INCLUDING, or maybe more to the point, critically the comunication prolems

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That's the deal - I feel that everything I offered was to be conducive to further the understanding

INCLUDING, or maybe more to the point, critically the comunication prolems

 

 

I understand what you were doing, from your 1st post...

 

Still awaits your contribution to the technical side of the thread though. Sincerely, the questions I asked, while they may have appeared obnoxious, are important, but not as important as the answers.

 

I learned long ago, that the answers are only important if you ask the RIGHT questions.

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I don't know you nearly well enough to have a personal problem with you, and I do appreciate the ostensible goal of the thread (to inform about rack gear) - I haven't been here long, but here and at other places I like to put together tutorials about stuff I find interesting. I am not trying to call you to the floor as a human being, but rather to explain why I think this thread has turned out the way that it has. It could have been different, and part of that might have been not getting quite so defensive on everybody's part - but a big part of it is embodied in the thread title and in the first post, putting others on the defensive right away by framing the debate so as to set it up as "rack-best" versus "pedal/purist" worst... So worst, in fact, that you call 'em "Nazi," which I understand to be a purposeful exaggeration but which still brings with it a hell of a character assault. So it isn't that you're responding in kind, but that the foundation for the thread turning into a flamewar was laid in the first post and in the thread title. By putting it forth as being a truth against "BS myths," you're calling people out who don't agree with you in a way that goes beyond simply offering them an alternative - it's calling them wrong from the start, and that naturally tends to get people edgy. And then it folded in on itself like a black hole.

 

In the future, if you want to post an info thread, try to make the first post and the thread title a little bit less intentionally controversial. This isn't a topic that necessarily needs to engender controversy, since it's a path that is or is not available and may or may not be preferred. Info is all that is needed, but I can't, having read the thread, really believe that all you intended to do was to inform - there's just too much loaded language right in the first post. I don't think you're trolling by any means, but the tone of your posts isn't exactly debate-among-equals, you know what I mean?

 

Try not to take this post as an attack, just read it and see if you agree or disagree - and tell me why.

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that comes back to the amygdala thing - you have a perception, which may not be in alignment with my intention


Still awaits your contribution to the technical side of the thread though.

 

 

Iactually, I mentioned a few things including use model, an alternative solution to running a fuzz-face type circuit "up front", requirements spe-centered design, efficiency as a definiteive quality metric metric

 

Sincerely, the questions I asked, while they may have appeared obnoxious, are important, but not as important as the answers.

 

 

as an engineer, Im sure you can see how important the question is

 

I learned long ago, that the answers are only important if you ask the RIGHT questions.

 

yup! and rightly - otherwise the info don't flow rightly

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I don't know you nearly well enough to have a personal problem with you, and I do appreciate the ostensible goal of the thread (to inform about rack gear) - I haven't been here long, but here and at other places I like to put together tutorials about stuff I find interesting. I am not trying to call you to the floor as a human being, but rather to explain why I think this thread has turned out the way that it has. It could have been different, and part of that might have been not getting quite so defensive on
everybody's
part - but a big part of it is embodied in the thread title and in the first post, putting
others
on the defensive right away by framing the debate so as to set it up as "rack-best" versus "pedal/purist" worst... So worst, in fact, that you call 'em "Nazi," which I understand to be a purposeful exaggeration but which still brings with it a hell of a character assault. So it isn't that you're responding in kind, but that the foundation for the thread turning into a flamewar was laid in the first post and in the thread title. By putting it forth as being a truth against "BS myths," you're calling people out who don't agree with you in a way that goes beyond simply offering them an alternative - it's calling them
wrong
from the start, and that naturally tends to get people edgy. And then it folded in on itself like a black hole.


In the future, if you want to post an info thread, try to make the first post and the thread title a little bit less intentionally controversial. This isn't a topic that necessarily needs to engender controversy, since it's a path that is or is not available and may or may not be preferred. Info is all that is needed, but I can't, having read the thread, really believe that all you intended to do was to inform - there's just too much loaded language right in the first post. I don't think you're trolling by any means, but the tone of your posts isn't exactly debate-among-equals, you know what I mean?


Try not to take this post as an attack, just read it and see if you agree or disagree - and tell me why.

 

 

You are 100% correct. I have made the amount of posts I have, mainly with interactive technical topics, and have remained silent for far more that I have posted. A LOT, of threads read, to say the least.

 

I suppose I get upset at the amount of misinformation, trolling and elitism that goes on, by guys with some experience against guys with less, and find my self shaking my head at them, thinking, why not post some helpful info...

 

I also find the rack vs pedal opposition rather ridiculous here on the effects forum of all places. I wanted to dispel the bull{censored}. Plain and simple, effects (ALL effects) are tools, nothing more. I knew I would get a rise out of some guys, but had REAL information about using the tools that the "pedal" vs rack guys use. Mainly the ability to run their pedal gear, be it on the floor or in a rack on a tray, through a switching system, affording them the ability to utilize MIDI switching, thereby automating their pedal presses and consolidating it to a single button press, and opening up the types of pedals that they could use, without having to perform true bypass mods on them, and by providing a cleaner signal path for their guitar signal. I wanted to dispel the myth that rack stuff has to be expensive, that it has to be digital A/D D/A thinness, tone sucking etc...

 

I think no matter how politically correct people are, the guys who came in here and acted like pricks, act that way toward those who are politically correct as well. It's a sport for them. Which is why they ask loaded questions, never answer questions directly, and resort to personal attacks, then try to turn it around and pretend that when someone actually answers their questions straight ahead, and hands them their asses, they either go away, or never do answer the questions that they're asked. IMO, because they are cyber-bullies, who don't know half as much as they think they do, or as much as they want people to think they do. Then when they encounter me, they have nothing, in terms of elite posturing. Yes, I know I have a lot of very expensive gear. It isn't an accident. I planned it out that way. I actually do have experience running gear in every imaginable configuration, in in many cases much more experience with a lot more gear, and that pisses them off.

 

My $.02

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Off to watch another movie with the wife (she's having to study a lot another bar exam - so downtime is important)


Zach, I think you are misconstruing a lot of what's going on here


take some moments to reflect, look at agreed's post, think about some of the things I said w/o anger

 

 

Enjoy the movie. I look forward to you answering those questions I asked, and hope that you don't make yourself look like an insincere blow-hard, by ignoring them. I hope that you do prove my initial impression of you wrong, by actually answering them and fulfilling your offer to help with the threads technical discussion.

 

I run the risk, but I can live with the result... I don't expect you will, as I suspect my initial assessment of you was/is correct.

 

Hope you prove me wrong, but I doubt it

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