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OT: The most poetic argument against abortion I've ever heard.


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Who said anything about poor people?
:confused:



Who do you think you're putting one over on? I've been around the block. I know exactly what you're talking about, and it's certainly not upper-class parents caught up in the courts. They can afford lawyers; they can afford justice. They don't have to worry about the system taking their children away from them.

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Who do you think you're putting one over on? I've been around the block. I know exactly what you're talking about, and it's certainly not upper-class parents caught up in the courts. They can afford lawyers; they can afford justice. They don't have to worry about the system taking their children away from them.

 

 

Yes, of course. No middle or upper class parents have ever beaten their children. The only thing you've picked up going around the block are stereotypes.

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I don't need, nor do I want, more people subsisting on my taxes, breathing my air, or filling up the school system that the children I decide to have (or adopt,) would attend. This goes double for people of lesser intelligence.


That being said, I'm going to take the effort not to need to abort a future son/daughter, and, even at that, I'd never do it late term if I can avoid it.


It shouldn't be illegal in any way, shape, or form because of it's questionable morality. If it didn't do anything to improve a situation, then yes, it should be illegal. But, because of it, families don't have to pull their belts tighter to get by, teenagers don't get hitched and end up working dead end jobs, and one less potential person has to suffer poverty or bad parenting.



You kinda made my point, man. Thanks! :idea::freak::cry:

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Ok, since you really think you've got me beat, I've got a bachelor's degree in social work and a master's degree education (all of my experience has been in impoverished urban areas). I've been working in the trenches for over 14years. I know exactly what your problem is: You've let disenchantment construct your perception of the people you work with. Being jaded isn't a badge of honor for people who work in the helping profession, it's a sign that they need a break. Abortion won't solve the human condition, man, it will always be there no matter what.

:idea:

Seriously, think about your ideas here. They're closer to what right-wingers would want to solve social issues (kinda like sterilizing the unlcleansed masses).



Hey, man, it's not a competition. I may have come acrossed a little "holier-than-thou" and that wasn't my intent. I'm glad to be wrong about you.

I'm glad there are people like you who are working in the trenches. I'm not disenchanted, though. And I wouldn't say I'm jaded. I just feel that I've seen enough to know what's possible and what's not. I don't have any rescue illusions anymore and that's why I can continue to work in the field and do good work. I believe that everyone has their strengths and we as a society should help them develop those strengths. But until we have a system that values what you and I do as much as athletes and reality TV stars, I just can't really understand the pro-life agenda.

I've thought long and hard about my ideas. I'm no right-winger by any stretch and I'm not supporting "sterilizing the uncleansed masses". I just want people to be able to have that option should they feel it's the right thing for them. I'm just trying to be practical. You might call it jaded, but I call it practical.

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A woman should have the right to terminate any pregnancy up until the point that the fetus is viable outside the womb without heroic medical efforts. Why? Because women, and girls, to this day can not be said universally to have true agency and control over reproduction. In other words, so long as there are women who are in relationships where the man dictates what level of birth control is permitted, the woman needs an option to terminate a pregnancy that she did not consent to or want. It is that simple, because life for women in such a situation is not simple at all.

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I don't really see the comparison. I think most anti-abortion advocates forget the bigger picture. If someone is in the position that abortion is the best option, you can most likely assume if the child were to be born they would be born in a "not so great" environment.


Either way. If abortion is forced to go underground (again), the chances of the mothers dying will increase.

 

 

True, the life of an unwanted child isn't peaches and cream and unfortunately abortion might actually be a kinder fate for some children who might otherwise be severely abused or neglected and in turn may do even further harm to society but who should get to decide their fate while their slate is clean? An irresponsible teen?

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Yes, of course. No middle or upper class parents have ever beaten their children. The only thing you've picked up going around the block are stereotypes.

 

 

You aren't understanding my point. It's not that abuse and neglect only occur in lower-class households, it's simply that most upper-class families can, and do, avoid family court issues because they can afford lawyers.

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If you reread what I wrote, I agreed the majority of abortions likely happen in the first tri-mester. As far as genetic defects go, if the child would be able to breathe and live it should have that chance. If you're talking about profound defects where the baby couldn't sustain itself whatsoever outside the womb, ok, I can see where abortion may be the only sensible option.

 

 

well dude... A friend of ours had a baby with downs a few years ago when we lived up in WA state. Honestly i'm a bit torn, because the baby was cute and all, and she was a great mother... but if i think with my brain rather than my heart, i have to deal with the fact that that child will be a burden on her for the rest of her life, not to mention a financial drain on the rest of society.

 

Anyways, I grew up catholic, and went to catholic when i was a kid... i remember in like 3rh or 4th grade, some lady came in to our class and gave us this long long speach on abortion... half the kids in class probably barely even knew what sex was, let alone that it was actually something enjoyable. I just remember thinking to my self that this felt like indoctrination... not that i actually knew that word at that age, but i could tell this wasn't part of "class" Ever since then pro-lifers have just annoyed the crap out of me... or really anyone who likes to make speaches from their moral presupus, while looking down their nose, even though they have likely never had to make a hard decision in their life... Or even worse, they did have to make that decision, and to make up for their guilt have to make other people feel like {censored} for doing exactly what they did...

 

this is the unfortunate side effect of living in reality, rather than some abstract solidly pricipled world... those people live in the world where people are poor because they want to be, and stupid because they want to be, and all women who have sex are filthy whores, and abort their babies while they are in labor while worshiping satan.

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im extremely pro choice and honestly if something like rvw was ever overturned here i think i would be looking for apartments in vancouver within minutes.

that said,i can't help but wonder,with all the talk about this being a woman's right,are we really talking about a woman's right in a male dominated world? Sometimes i see abortion similarly to say,a burka,or female genital mutilation.all three are something we see females fighting to have the right for.it is the female that fights for her right to keep her burka on for a drivers license photo.it is the mother holding the sharp jagged rock,who will fight for her right to saw off her daughters clitoris while an aunt holds her down.

if our culture wasnt built on male domination,male superstition,male organized religion,if we went back,way back,and had true equality from the get go,would we have these concepts? I guess it is my "selfish gene" view of things that begins this kind of internal dialogue,but then again,even something as simple as a condom overrides the selfish gene,and i guess i can still see condoms being around with a retroactive gender equality in place,so who knows

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It just doesn't make sense to me. It's the same as people not wanting teens (for obvious reasons) to have sex so they teach abstinence and avoid teaching how to have sex safely. Well, abstinence doesn't work so you have kids having sex without a good source of knowledge on safe sex.

 

Abortions are going to happen legally or illegally. Might as well have a safe and sterile place to have it done. AND also have readily available contraceptives along with family planning clinics. Abortion rates in the US have been on the decline for years while abortion has been legal.

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+1 bajillion


The problem w/ anti-choicers is they tend to be the same people who DON'T adopt, and DON'T fund and/or support those of us whose career it is to work w/ the kids that were born addicted to substances, and/or to abusive parents.


Nor do the anti-choicers want to fund the programs necessary to treat said population. And FWIW, many of these kids, will ALWAYS be dependent on others and the "system" that the anti-choicers tend to ignore.


It's really easy to wave the "pro-life" flag. But really, we're all pro-life. I mean, I'm certainly not pro-death. But I believe that every child should be a WANTED child.

 

 

Anti-choice? That's just as bad as pro-life people calling pro-choice people pro-death.

 

I'm pro-condom and pro-adoption.

 

To me the issue calls into question what we want our government for. This is something that we the people of earth our very confused about. We're not sure if we want government to instill justice, order, morality, protect rights, be an economic cooperative to better everyone's standard of living, or something else completely.

 

I think the argument that "every child should be a WANTED child" is a very fascistic one in my opinion. I think making a call like that is infringing on other people's rights. If you were an unwanted child, would you later wish that your parents aborted you because of how hard it has made your life? I think that is sort of a defeatist attitude, and also go against the existential principle that our lives are what we make of them.

 

I personally believe that personal rights are of the utmost importance, and that the right to live my life as I so choose it as long as I don't infringe upon other's rights: thus making thievery, rape, and murder are wrong. To me, abortion is infringing on someone's right. So is the death penalty. Giving someone else the choice of life/death of another person makes us no better than animals.

 

Are we animals or are we humans? I'd prefer to be human, although I know there are many people in this world who act like animals.

 

The reason that abortion is legal is that the majority of the US is under morally developed. Many people are stuck in the "law/order" level of Kohlberg's stages of moral development. Since things like abortion and the death penalty don't affect society as noticeably as serial killers and terrorist bombers, they are out of sight and out of mind and not cared about.

 

People shape their own realities too. One of my favorite philosophers is Descartes. If you want to say that you don't believe in biology or that you don't believe in the rights of other humans to live or that you don't believe other people exist, then it is perfectly logical to believe abortion is OK and in the 2nd and 3rd cases all forms of murder.

 

But if you believe murder is wrong and you believe in biology, I find it pretty illogical to claim that abortion is OK. Because no matter what argument you want to make, biological, a zygote is a life in its earliest form. It isn't a cancer, it isn't a parasite, it isn't an appendix. That's just bull{censored}. Unless you believe in biology but don't believe in logic. But science is founded in logic, so I find that rather unlikely.

 

The idea that it is a female vs. male issue is a crafted reality too in my mind.

 

The main question for me is what I want from my government and if I really believe in my government. Also, how should crime be punished? Also, do government bans really affect people's view of the law?

 

This goes to our human nature that prevents peace and ensures murder, rape, and thievery.

 

But anyways, the best solutions I find are to attack the cause. The cause is people getting pregnant and adoption being a very difficult and expensive process, even for prospective parents that would be good parents. (I'd like to point out here I believe homosexuals can be good parents.)

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Abortions are going to happen legally or illegally. Might as well have a safe and sterile place to have it done. AND also have readily available contraceptives along with family planning clinics. Abortion rates in the US have been on the decline for years while abortion has been legal.

 

 

Good point. I haven't thought of that. See, there are are so many points and counterpoints and pros and cons to this topic that it'll never end. It comes down to how one looks at it pragmatically, morally, philosophically, etc. It's the arguement with a thousand answers.

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well dude... A friend of ours had a baby with downs a few years ago when we lived up in WA state. Honestly i'm a bit torn, because the baby was cute and all, and she was a great mother... but if i think with my brain rather than my heart, i have to deal with the fact that that child will be a burden on her for the rest of her life, not to mention a financial drain on the rest of society.


Anyways, I grew up catholic, and went to catholic when i was a kid... i remember in like 3rh or 4th grade, some lady came in to our class and gave us this long long speach on abortion... half the kids in class probably barely even knew what sex was, let alone that it was actually something enjoyable. I just remember thinking to my self that this felt like indoctrination... not that i actually knew that word at that age, but i could tell this wasn't part of "class" Ever since then pro-lifers have just annoyed the crap out of me... or really anyone who likes to make speaches from their moral presupus, while looking down their nose, even though they have likely never had to make a hard decision in their life... Or even worse, they did have to make that decision, and to make up for their guilt have to make other people feel like {censored} for doing exactly what they did...


this is the unfortunate side effect of living in reality, rather than some abstract solidly pricipled world... those people live in the world where people are poor because they want to be, and stupid because they want to be, and all women who have sex are filthy whores, and abort their babies while they are in labor while worshiping satan.

 

 

 

Hey, I totally get you on the indoctrination thing. I'm a "convenient" Catholic. I simply don't agree with a much of the belief system. That aside, I've never, ever had any priest or anyone coach me about abortion. My mom did raise me to view wrong and right, however. It's just never seemed to be "right" to me. I mean, everything about it seems completely "wrong." It just seems to be grossly irresponsible to use your genitals, create a fetus, and wash it all away because it's not convenient. I think we can all agree that most abortions are a matter of convenience, not life or death.

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Also, I find it ironic that liberals(which I consider myself to be for the most part) condone abortion but are against the death penalty for murders.

 

 

ah ha... well, i live on the west coast, so im probably considered a liberal by most of the rest of the countries standards

 

im pro choice, and pro death penalty... although i do think that anything where the death penalty is laid down, it better be an air tight case... because obviously you cant take it back once you execute someone. (looking in the direction of TEXAS)

 

I also am a gun owner, and think people should have the right to bear arms.

 

I also eat meat (although i'll eat salad too)

 

just another working man here. yup.

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Good point. I haven't thought of that. See, there are are so many points and counterpoints and pros and cons to this topic that it'll never end. It comes down to how one looks at it pragmatically, morally, philosophically, etc. It the arguement with a thousand right answers.

 

 

Yep. Definitely not a black and white thing.

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Anti-choice? That's just as bad as pro-life people calling pro-choice people pro-death.


I'm pro-condom and pro-adoption.


To me the issue calls into question what we want our government for. This is something that we the people of earth our very confused about. We're not sure if we want government to instill justice, order, morality, protect rights, be an economic cooperative to better everyone's standard of living, or something else completely.


I think the argument that "every child should be a WANTED child" is a very fascistic one in my opinion. I think making a call like that is infringing on other people's rights. If you were an unwanted child, would you later wish that your parents aborted you because of how hard it has made your life? I think that is sort of a defeatist attitude, and also go against the existential principle that our lives are what we make of them.


I personally believe that personal rights are of the utmost importance, and that the right to live my life as I so choose it as long as I don't infringe upon other's rights: thus making thievery, rape, and murder are wrong. To me, abortion is infringing on someone's right. So is the death penalty. Giving someone else the choice of life/death of another person makes us no better than animals.


Are we animals or are we humans? I'd prefer to be human, although I know there are many people in this world who act like animals.


The reason that abortion is legal is that the majority of the US is under morally developed. Many people are stuck in the "law/order" level of Kohlberg's stages of moral development. Since things like abortion and the death penalty don't affect society as noticeably as serial killers and terrorist bombers, they are out of sight and out of mind and not cared about.


People shape their own realities too. One of my favorite philosophers is Descartes. If you want to say that you don't believe in biology or that you don't believe in the rights of other humans to live or that you don't believe other people exist, then it is perfectly logical to believe abortion is OK and in the 2nd and 3rd cases all forms of murder.


But if you believe murder is wrong and you believe in biology, I find it pretty illogical to claim that abortion is OK. Because no matter what argument you want to make, biological, a zygote is a life in its earliest form. It isn't a cancer, it isn't a parasite, it isn't an appendix. That's just bull{censored}. Unless you believe in biology but don't believe in logic. But science is founded in logic, so I find that rather unlikely.


The idea that it is a female vs. male issue is a crafted reality too in my mind.


The main question for me is what I want from my government and if I really believe in my government. Also, how should crime be punished? Also, do government bans really affect people's view of the law?


This goes to our human nature that prevents peace and ensures murder, rape, and thievery.


But anyways, the best solutions I find are to attack the cause. The cause is people getting pregnant and adoption being a very difficult and expensive process, even for prospective parents that would be good parents. (I'd like to point out here I believe homosexuals can be good parents.)



Is this your nihillist manifesto? :wave:

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well dude... A friend of ours had a baby with downs a few years ago when we lived up in WA state. Honestly i'm a bit torn, because the baby was cute and all, and she was a great mother... but if i think with my brain rather than my heart, i have to deal with the fact that that child will be a burden on her for the rest of her life, not to mention a financial drain on the rest of society.

 

 

Mongoloid he was a mongoloid

Happier than you and me

Mongoloid he was a mongoloid

And it determined what he could see

Mongoloid he was a mongoloid

One chromosome too many

Mongoloid he was a mongoloid

And it determined what he could see

And he wore a hat

And he had a job

And he brought home the bacon

So that no one knew

Mongoloid he was a mongoloid

His friends were unaware

Mongoloid he was a mongoloid

Nobody even cared

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I think Abortion is absolutely disgusting and is not on at all.

Is it okay to kill a child? What makes it okay to kill a fetus, they're a human being who is going to have a life. Abortion isn't the problem it's too many people having unprotected sex or sex because its convenient. Sex is for reproducing and using it as something you do because you feel the want is just rediculous.

 

If you get pregnant its your fault and you should have the child and be the best parent you can, as people would kill to have a child but can't.

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Wow, ok, another argument for abortion based on the principle that it will keep poor people from breeding. And I assume you guys consider yourselves liberal? I mean, you really want this abortion thing to work out for society's benefit, huh? I mean, we don't need no more stinkin' poor people. Let's not bother to give the underclass a hand up, let's just leave them be and hope they abort themselves into oblivion.
:freak:



wow, you pulled that one out of the past.

It's not about poor people... it's about people who are not currently ready to have a child. I mean, most kids when they are 16 have no money, and no job experience... so they are poor... that doesnt mean they will be in that situation a few years later.

Also, the eugenics argument from the 50's really doesnt work....

Pro-choice means just that. No one is making someone get an abortion, that is a decision for a woman, or really best case a couple to make. Having an abortion does not mean that a woman can not have a child later in life when the situation is more conducive to raising a child... this may be financial, but it may also be other factors in her life.

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Anti-choice? That's just as bad as pro-life people calling pro-choice people pro-death.


I'm pro-condom and pro-adoption.


To me the issue calls into question what we want our government for. This is something that we the people of earth our very confused about. We're not sure if we want government to instill justice, order, morality, protect rights, be an economic cooperative to better everyone's standard of living, or something else completely.


I think the argument that "every child should be a WANTED child" is a very fascistic one in my opinion. I think making a call like that is infringing on other people's rights. If you were an unwanted child, would you later wish that your parents aborted you because of how hard it has made your life? I think that is sort of a defeatist attitude, and also go against the existential principle that our lives are what we make of them.


I personally believe that personal rights are of the utmost importance, and that the right to live my life as I so choose it as long as I don't infringe upon other's rights: thus making thievery, rape, and murder are wrong. To me, abortion is infringing on someone's right. So is the death penalty. Giving someone else the choice of life/death of another person makes us no better than animals.


Are we animals or are we humans? I'd prefer to be human, although I know there are many people in this world who act like animals.


The reason that abortion is legal is that the majority of the US is under morally developed. Many people are stuck in the "law/order" level of Kohlberg's stages of moral development. Since things like abortion and the death penalty don't affect society as noticeably as serial killers and terrorist bombers, they are out of sight and out of mind and not cared about.


People shape their own realities too. One of my favorite philosophers is Descartes. If you want to say that you don't believe in biology or that you don't believe in the rights of other humans to live or that you don't believe other people exist, then it is perfectly logical to believe abortion is OK and in the 2nd and 3rd cases all forms of murder.


But if you believe murder is wrong and you believe in biology, I find it pretty illogical to claim that abortion is OK. Because no matter what argument you want to make, biological, a zygote is a life in its earliest form. It isn't a cancer, it isn't a parasite, it isn't an appendix. That's just bull{censored}. Unless you believe in biology but don't believe in logic. But science is founded in logic, so I find that rather unlikely.


The main question for me is what I want from my government and if I really believe in my government. Also, how should crime be punished? Also, do government bans really affect people's view of the law?


This goes to our human nature that prevents peace and ensures murder, rape, and thievery.


But anyways, the best solutions I find are to attack the cause. The cause is people getting pregnant and adoption being a very difficult and expensive process, even for prospective parents that would be good parents. (I'd like to point out here I believe homosexuals can be good parents.)

 

 

Some good points here, but still a little tricky. First off, is science really founded in logic? I mean, logic does not imply truth. Science is about the ability to test a hypothesis and come up with a consitent result. Logic tends to be a little more theoretical: "If I do X, Y will happen..." Until we test that, scientifically, we don't know if it's true. So if I say "If you masterbate, you will go blind". Well, logically, you would go blind based on that "logic". But we know it's not true.

 

As for terminating a pregnancy is infringing on someone else's rights, one could argue then, that when you have a 2 year old who wants to have a 4th bowl of ice cream, you have to give it to her or you'd be infringing on her rights.

 

It's all relative. But I'm glad we live in a country where we can have these converations.

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Is this your nihillist manifesto?
:wave:



I'm only nihilistic in appearance and my general disregard for many societal conventions and beliefs as rubbish. Beliefs wise I'm influenced by Descartes, Dostoevsky, Socrates, the existentialists, Aldous Huxley, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Bahai, and various other stuff.

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