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OT: The most poetic argument against abortion I've ever heard.


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This is a direct quote from that article:


"Data on abortions -- particularly the types of procedures physicians use -- are among the more incomplete and contested health statistics in the United States."

 

 

Let's just put it this way dude... a late term abortion is a major proceidure... not something you can typically do at a clinic. There is no way a majority of abortions are performed in the last trimester, or you'd have entire wings of hostpitals dedicated to it.

 

Most women know pretty quickly what they want to do.

 

A lot of the mid term abortions are because women find out that their is a problem with the pregnancy. You want a downs baby? or a baby with major spinal issues, genetic defects, or any other number of things which will basically give you a completely dependant child for their entire life...

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People don't want to accept responsibility for what their genitals do. It's not their fault, after all. That damn genitalia!

By the way, I used my genitalia extensively throughout my 20s and never knocked anyone up. I did have to become adept at using condoms, which can be a buzz-kill, but beats having an unexpected pregnancy. Plus, have you seen what STD's can do to a penis? The horror... I guess I'm old-fashioned.

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First of all, OT has never been more true.


Now for my rant - Why does every proponent of abortion defend it as a means of birth control?

 

 

It shouldn't be a form of birth control, at least in a casual sense. Birth control doesn't always work though, and people make mistakes. Not everyone has the sex education (from their parents or schools) that they need in order to know how to practice safe sex. The average pro choice activist isn't pro abortion; they don't think people should be getting all of the time. They just think that they should be legal.

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Considering that you and I go way back, I guess you really would be the one person qualified to judge the degree of my wrongs over my lifespan. Thanks for that:rolleyes:. But I will indulge what I believe you were trying to get at - the 'anti-choice' tag. Ok, fair enough. You and I fundamentally differ in our opinions of what abortion is. You don't see it as a choice, and I don't see the first 3 months of a pregnancy as a viable being.




Kitty Rose, is that you? "flawed ideas". Oy Vey. I don't know your background. Maybe you've adopted and you're speaking from experience on your end of things. Yes, international adoption is big business. People mistakenly think they'll get healthier babies overseas (and if we're honest, White babies). FWIW, China is one of the best places to adopt. Stay away from places like Kazakhstan, and places from the former Soviet Union.


Look up the term Reactive Attachment Disorder. See, on my end of things, there are plenty of unwanted babies and I've worked with them, treated some of them, and watched many of them start out their lives in abusive, neglectful situations only to be bounced around various foster homes, residential placements, and eventually jail. Or, dead. So don't attempt to assume you have any kind of idea of where I come from and what I've seen.


It'd be great if there were no abortions. Honestly. I'd much rather see kids get the sex education they need so they can avoid pregnancy. But see, the same people that don't want to fund the programs that I work for are the same people who support our current president in providing federal funding ONLY to abstinence-based sex education. Yup, you can teach kids about absitenence and get federal dollars, but if you want to talk about condoms, the pill, etc, you're on your own.


Unless you're gonna tell me that you've adopted or work in the social services field, you can stay on your soap box so you don't have to get your feet dirty.

 

 

 

You were the one who made a number of assumptions about who I am. You were wrong on most counts, though I've never officially followed through on an adoption yet. My wife and I were going to a couple years ago, but the costs were just staggering. We simply couldn't afford to adopt (it can get up into the 30-50K range these days).

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Let's just put it this way dude... a late term abortion is a major proceidure... not something you can typically do at a clinic. There is no way a majority of abortions are performed in the last trimester, or you'd have entire wings of hostpitals dedicated to it.


Most women know pretty quickly what they want to do.


A lot of the mid term abortions are because women find out that their is a problem with the pregnancy. You want a downs baby? or a baby with major spinal issues, genetic defects, or any other number of things which will basically give you a completely dependant child for their entire life...

 

 

If you reread what I wrote, I agreed the majority of abortions likely happen in the first tri-mester. As far as genetic defects go, if the child would be able to breathe and live it should have that chance. If you're talking about profound defects where the baby couldn't sustain itself whatsoever outside the womb, ok, I can see where abortion may be the only sensible option.

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My assumption is that abortions happen all over the range, with a majority in the first tri-mester. Still, having an abortion 4 weeks in and having an abortion 3 months in are vastly different. I figure, if it can squirm from the pain, it's alive. Having an abortion after the first tri-mester is complete is pretty much murder to me, but to each his/her own.


I think that abortion is one of those topics that most people blindly accept, especially if they wanna hang with the liberal ideologues.

 

 

I am far from an ideologue. I am a pragmatist. People who live soley on pricipal are the ones who can afford to pay for it. People who make tough decisions do the best then can with what they got, whether that choice is to abort, to raise a child in less than good conditions, put up for adoption.

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People don't want to accept responsibility for what their genitals do. It's not
their
fault, after all. That damn genitalia!


By the way, I used my genitalia extensively throughout my 20s and never knocked anyone up. I did have to become adept at using condoms, which can be a buzz-kill, but beats having an unexpected pregnancy. Plus, have you seen what STD's can do to a penis? The horror... I guess I'm old-fashioned.

 

 

 

What does this have to do with accepting responsibility? What if one of your condoms had failed? I'm not saying you would have gotten an abortion, just that unintended pregnancy, despite proper condom usage. None of what you're saying is answering the criticisms I'm making. This detour, it seems, couldn't be more besides the point. In any case, I'm signing off for now.

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As far as genetic defects go, if the child would be able to breathe and live it should have that chance. If you're talking about profound defects where the baby couldn't sustain itself whatsoever outside the womb, ok, I can see where abortion may be the only sensible option.

 

 

I disagree with your assumption that the baby's right to life trumps the mother's right to choose, at least at this stage. I'm not so much criticizing you here as saying your language assumes shared moral premises. They are not there, in this case. Now, really, to bed.

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You were the one who made a number of assumptions about who I am. You were wrong on most counts, though I've never officially followed through on an adoption yet. My wife and I were going to a couple years ago, but the costs were just staggering. We simply couldn't afford to adopt (it can get up into the 30-50K range these days).

 

 

 

Well I wish you luck in your future endeavours of adoption. Yes, it can be expensive, and that is regrettable.

 

It is true that abortion can be a traumatic decision for a woman/couple, and I definitely don't think it's a form of birth control by any means. But I know that for a lot of people, it was the right choice and I think that choice needs to be protected. There are plenty of babies/kids in this country waiting to be adopted. Unfortunately, it seems that the majority of the people doing the adopting don't want African-American kids or kids w/ special needs.

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I'm asking you to clarify more than anything. You believe that in order to avoid being hypocritical, we shouldn't feel badly about anyone/anything dying? We should be utterly neutral?

 

 

attachment to our fellow man is a survival mechanism ingrained in human nature... without it humans never would have survived, or at least evolved much differently. Unfortunatly that attachment puts our brains in to a tizzy when we lose someone. it's called grief. as profound as death is to us, it is a construct of our brain, not some innate dogma we get from some guy up in the clouds.

 

You can see this in nature too... communal creatures all do it... a dog loses it's "friend" and it will be noticably depressed for a while.... but that same dog will push the runt off its nipple if it has too large of a litter.

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LOL... I thought the thread title was "The most PATHETIC argument against abortion."

 

If that was the thread title, I would have agreed with you.

 

Pro choice right here!

 

Besides it's not like the human race is going extinct... infact, I think there's too many people as is.

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I don't need, nor do I want, more people subsisting on my taxes, breathing my air, or filling up the school system that the children I decide to have (or adopt,) would attend. This goes double for people of lesser intelligence.

That being said, I'm going to take the effort not to need to abort a future son/daughter, and, even at that, I'd never do it late term if I can avoid it.

It shouldn't be illegal in any way, shape, or form because of it's questionable morality. If it didn't do anything to improve a situation, then yes, it should be illegal. But, because of it, families don't have to pull their belts tighter to get by, teenagers don't get hitched and end up working dead end jobs, and one less potential person has to suffer poverty or bad parenting.

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Considering that you and I go way back, I guess you really would be the one person qualified to judge the degree of my wrongs over my lifespan. Thanks for that:rolleyes:. But I will indulge what I believe you were trying to get at - the 'anti-choice' tag. Ok, fair enough. You and I fundamentally differ in our opinions of what abortion is. You don't see it as a choice, and I don't see the first 3 months of a pregnancy as a viable being.




Kitty Rose, is that you? "flawed ideas". Oy Vey. I don't know your background. Maybe you've adopted and you're speaking from experience on your end of things. Yes, international adoption is big business. People mistakenly think they'll get healthier babies overseas (and if we're honest, White babies). FWIW, China is one of the best places to adopt. Stay away from places like Kazakhstan, and places from the former Soviet Union.


Look up the term Reactive Attachment Disorder. See, on my end of things, there are plenty of unwanted babies and I've worked with them, treated some of them, and watched many of them start out their lives in abusive, neglectful situations only to be bounced around various foster homes, residential placements, and eventually jail. Or, dead. So don't attempt to assume you have any kind of idea of where I come from and what I've seen.


It'd be great if there were no abortions. Honestly. I'd much rather see kids get the sex education they need so they can avoid pregnancy. But see, the same people that don't want to fund the programs that I work for are the same people who support our current president in providing federal funding ONLY to abstinence-based sex education. Yup, you can teach kids about absitenence and get federal dollars, but if you want to talk about condoms, the pill, etc, you're on your own.


Unless you're gonna tell me that you've adopted or work in the social services field, you can stay on your soap box so you don't have to get your feet dirty.




Ok, since you really think you've got me beat, I've got a bachelor's degree in social work and a master's degree education (all of my experience has been in impoverished urban areas). I've been working in the trenches for over 14years. I know exactly what your problem is: You've let disenchantment construct your perception of the people you work with. Being jaded isn't a badge of honor for people who work in the helping profession, it's a sign that they need a break. Abortion won't solve the human condition, man, it will always be there no matter what.
:idea:

Seriously, think about your ideas here. They're closer to what right-wingers would want to solve social issues (kinda like sterilizing the unlcleansed masses).

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People don't want to accept responsibility for what their genitals do. It's not
their
fault, after all. That damn genitalia!


By the way, I used my genitalia extensively throughout my 20s and never knocked anyone up. I did have to become adept at using condoms, which can be a buzz-kill, but beats having an unexpected pregnancy. Plus, have you seen what STD's can do to a penis? The horror... I guess I'm old-fashioned.

 

 

It doesn't change the fact that unwanted pregnancies do happen and will happen whether abortion is outlawed or not.

 

My friend works for the courts and decides what's best for children when they are in a messed up situation. You should talk to someone who does that and hear their stories and then decide whether abortion should be legal or not. He said last night after all the cases he's worked on he's happy with two of the outcomes.

 

{censored} happens, will always happen. Sometimes you just have to pick the less {censored}ty option.

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booo who:cry:

personally i could give a {censored} less, if a women wants an aboration for a legit reason (
other then not wanting to support a kid
) then good for her.


Let it be.

 

 

I'm not sure if you are aware, but that is the reason for the vast majority of abortions. Pregnancy is just not convenient for many women, just like self control and preparation are not convenient for most men (and women, but I hold men more responsible) who want to get laid.

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Pro-life is probably the only issue I take a conservative stance on. With pretty much anything else I tend to lean to the left. But I guess after having a child that, to be honest, my wife(girlfriend at the time) and I considered having aborted, I now have a different outlook. I'm not gonna picket the abortion clinics or anything and I understand there are always certain situations that might merit such a course of action but fundamentally I can't condone abortion. I guess it all comes down to perspective.

Also, I find it ironic that liberals(which I consider myself to be for the most part) condone abortion but are against the death penalty for murders.

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I'm not sure if life begins at conception, but it's got to start sometime, so I'd personally like to put that estimate as conservative as possible. And if it's a life than it's not a choice. And as far as sex ed goes, will that really help? I mean, we've spent all this money on getting kids not to smoke, drink, or do drugs, and I bet that every kid that's had a cigarette could at some level acknowledge that cigarettes are bad, but they do it anyway. I wonder if the same could be said about sex.

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First of all, OT has never been more true.


Now for my rant - Why does every proponent of abortion defend it as a means of birth control? I'm a christian, but I am not catholic, and I think birth control is great (as in the pill, condoms, etc.) 99% of all abortions could be avoided if people took the time to avoid unwanted pregnancies, but thousands of guys can't be bothered to use a condom, let alone try the failed "male pill" - or at least make sure your girlfriend is using birth control medication responsibly and correctly. I guess the absence of legalized abortions would make the implications of shacking up with random women a bit more serious, or the consequences of becoming sexually active while you are still in high school. That is a lot to ask of most people - might as well take it out on the babies.


Personally, I won't have to worry about it because I am remaining abstinent before marriage, and I also plan to adopt at least one child, so if anyone is willing to forgo an abortion, there will be at least one home out there willing to help out.

 

 

Where did you get that from... I am not saying abortion is a great means of birth control. There are plenty of good ways to avoid pregnancy... condoms, pill, patch, etc. Whether you are prochoice, life, or dont really care (wow, now that's a small group) most people would accept that there is going to be at least some emotions stirred up by pregnancy, and it's certainly more invasive than taking a pill, or putting a cock sock on. abortion is a last resort, and if you compare the number of condoms sold in the US each year, im sure the number of abortions pales in comparison... (abortions in the US is about 1 million per year, not sure on condoms, but im guessing much much higher)

 

Anyways, when i was a kid my parents were friends with a couple who were foster parents... the truth is that there are not enough people willing to adopt kids... not even close... part of this is the process that you have to go through, but even if that was reformed, it still wouldnt be nearly enough, even if abortion remained legal.

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I'm not sure if you are aware, but that is the reason for the vast majority of abortions. Pregnancy is just not convenient for many women, just like self control and preparation are not convenient for most men (and women, but I hold men more responsible) who want to get laid.

 

 

eh, i guess {censored} happens...nothing really any of us can do about it.

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My friend works for the courts and decides what's best for children when they are in a messed up situation. You should talk to someone who does that and hear their stories and then decide whether abortion should be legal or not. He said last night after all the cases he's worked on he's happy with two of the outcomes.


.



Wow, ok, another argument for abortion based on the principle that it will keep poor people from breeding. And I assume you guys consider yourselves liberal? I mean, you really want this abortion thing to work out for society's benefit, huh? I mean, we don't need no more stinkin' poor people. Let's not bother to give the underclass a hand up, let's just leave them be and hope they abort themselves into oblivion. :freak:

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Also, I find it ironic that liberals(which I consider myself to be for the most part) condone abortion but are against the death penalty for murders.

 

 

I don't really see the comparison. I think most anti-abortion advocates forget the bigger picture. If someone is in the position that abortion is the best option, you can most likely assume if the child were to be born they would be born in a "not so great" environment.

 

Either way. If abortion is forced to go underground (again), the chances of the mothers dying will increase.

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Wow, ok, another argument for abortion based on the principle that it will keep poor people from breeding. And I assume you guys consider yourselves liberal? I mean, you really want this abortion thing to work out for society's benefit, huh? I mean, we don't need no more stikin' poor people. Let's not bother to give the underclass a hand up, let's just leave them be and hope they abort themselves into oblivion.
:freak:



Who said anything about poor people? :confused:

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