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OT: The most poetic argument against abortion I've ever heard.


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New Abortion


I'm ethereal, my children are legion, serial

They stick to my skin like beloved cysts

I tear away with my nails and teeth and fists

Touch the hands of inverted saints

Follow my heart through the threaded pain

Callow man is a sentinel screaming

I see the future; the future is bleeding


Sores, every goddamn minute I can feel 'em now

Like a virus, you will never kill me now

Goin' underground, comin' on like hepatitis

We're out - and you can't reshape us

Another bug in the construct

Tearin' up the main bus B

Zeros and ones are everything - execute me


Everywhere you look, it's like they know

Their fingerprints are hidden by CONTROL

This is where the line is drawn, see

YOU CAN'T TAKE MY SOUL AWAY FROM ME


What do you need to see? Ya feel the impact?

Gotta retract - everybody get back

What is this? It's like a big conspiracy

Fields of dejected morbid progeny

They always say that it's always our fault

But everything we say is taken with a grain of salt

Man, it's always the same, if we talk or complain

We only wanna upset the balance

How's it feel to be the New Abortioin?

The only generation to suffer extortion


Everywhere you look, it's like they know

Their fingerprints are hidden by CONTROL

This is where the line is drawn, see

YOU CAN'T TAKE MY SOUL AWAY FROM ME


YOU CAN'T TAKE MY SOUL AWAY FROM ME




That's crazy-talk. :freak:

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So your saying that destroying, by varying means, a few developing cells in the first trimester of a pregnancy (easily the most common form of abortion) is the same as throwing a living dog off of a cliff for fun? That's bull{censored}, but I guess we just can't even really have a discussion with such different assumptions.



Wait, wasn't it you that just said that life begins at birth? :confused:

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Birth is when life begins? So, I suppose if a maniac intentionally kicked a very pregnant woman in her 9th month in the stomach, thereby causing the baby to die, it would be simple assault?
:cry:



I'm not saying that's acceptable behavior, but I am saying that it's less condemnable than punching a 2 month old baby.

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So your saying that destroying, by varying means, a few developing cells in the first trimester of a pregnancy (easily the most common form of abortion) is the same as throwing a living dog off of a cliff for fun? That's bull{censored}, but I guess we just can't even really have a discussion with such different assumptions.

 

 

We have no idea what the "most common" form of abortion is. If you've got some solid data, I'd love to see it.

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Wait, wasn't it you that just said that life begins at birth?
:confused:



Nope. I said some people think that, and I think it's a crazy position. I'm not too concerned in any case with when life begins. It's a moot point. The sanctity of life in general is bull{censored} rhetoric. What about the meat (or vegetables) that you eat? If life in general is so valuable you can't violate it, you will die. There isn't really a way around it. I also reject the notion that a fertilized egg is equal to a human. What's a miscarriage, manslaughter?

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We have no idea what the "most common" form of abortion is. If you've got some solid data, I'd love to see it.

 

"The best estimate appears to be by the nonprofit Guttmacher Institute in New York, which researches reproductive health issues.

 

[...]

 

Overall, 88 percent of abortions are performed before the end of the 12th week of gestation -- the first trimester. About 10 percent are done between weeks 13 and 20. About 1 percent are done at week 21 or later. A normal gestation period is 38 weeks, 40 weeks after the last menstrual period."

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/18/AR2007041802428.html

 

:wave:

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Nope. I said some people think that, and I think it's a crazy position. I'm not too concerned in any case with when life begins. It's a moot point. The sanctity of life in general is bull{censored} rhetoric. What about the meat (or vegetables) that you eat? If life in general is so valuable you can't violate it, you will die. There isn't really a way around it. I also reject the notion that a fertilized egg is equal to a human. What's a miscarriage, manslaughter?



So you're pro-death. :confused:

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The problem with abortion is that there is a point in development where, innarguably, there is a human life. Most people don't want to dwell on the specifics, though. It's far too inconvenient for them to do so.

 

 

The problem with morality, is most people don't realize that it is whatever we collectively decide it is.

 

The official stance of the catholic church, is essentially every time your squirt one off you kill a billion. Hell, even if one of them manages to make it to an egg, you have still wasted 999,999,999 potential lives.

 

Personally, I consider a first trimester abortion a medical procedure, and nothing more, barring any emotional conflicts of course.

 

Anti-abortion people seem to try to make it out like all these abortions happen when the women are 9 months pregnant, and decide at the last minute that they'd like to go back to the hedonistic way of life worshiping satan and having sex with multiple partners in public... It's no wonder there is an emotional stigma that finds it's way to the girls faced with this decision.

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Overall, 88 percent of abortions are performed before the end of the 12th week of gestation -- the first trimester. About 10 percent are done between weeks 13 and 20. About 1 percent are done at week 21 or later. A normal gestation period is 38 weeks, 40 weeks after the last menstrual period."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/18/AR2007041802428.html


:wave:




This is a direct quote from that article:

"Data on abortions -- particularly the types of procedures physicians use -- are among the more incomplete and contested health statistics in the United States."

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This is a direct quote from that article:


"Data on abortions -- particularly the types of procedures physicians use -- are among the more incomplete and contested health statistics in the United States."

 

 

I saw that. The best data available, however, shows what I showed you. I don't see any reason to think it's radically inaccurate, failing other reputable studies that contradict this information.

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The problem with morality, is most people don't realize that it is whatever we collectively decide it is.


The official stance of the catholic church, is essentially every time your squirt one off you kill a billion. Hell, even if one of them manages to make it to an egg, you have still wasted 999,999,999 potential lives.


Personally, I consider a first trimester abortion a medical procedure, and nothing more, barring any emotional conflicts of course.


Anti-abortion people seem to try to make it out like all these abortions happen when the women are 9 months pregnant, and decide at the last minute that they'd like to go back to the hedonistic way of life worshiping satan and having sex with multiple partners in public... It's no wonder there is an emotional stigma that finds it's way to the girls faced with this decision.

 

 

 

My assumption is that abortions happen all over the range, with a majority in the first tri-mester. Still, having an abortion 4 weeks in and having an abortion 3 months in are vastly different. I figure, if it can squirm from the pain, it's alive. Having an abortion after the first tri-mester is complete is pretty much murder to me, but to each his/her own.

 

I think that abortion is one of those topics that most people blindly accept, especially if they wanna hang with the liberal ideologues.

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So you're pro-death.
:confused:



maybe he's just pragmatic, and realizes that {censored} happens in our {censored}ty world.

People die all the time, that's just part of life.

What happens when this 16 year old girl decides to keep her baby. she drops out of school, and still feels worthless, because she has not education, and isnt emotional mature enough to really raise a child, and certainly not financially stable to do it on her own.

Anyways, abortions have been around for a long long time... women would give them to them selves with a stick, and often {censored} up their chance of ever trying to have a kid in the future. other cultures were known to use herbs to cause a miscarriage...

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Nice straw man. No, I just think that the sanctity of life argument doesn't make any sense given how we live.

 

 

I'm asking you to clarify more than anything. You believe that in order to avoid being hypocritical, we shouldn't feel badly about anyone/anything dying? We should be utterly neutral?

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You didn't start a thread about a song at all, did you?

 

 

I started a thread about abortion. It's in the title. I never really thought about the lyrics till the other day, when I was driving to work and listening to it on my headphones. It just struck me what the song was actually about, and I do believe it is about an old girlfriend having an abortion and regretting it:

 

 

"Can't you see, it's not me you're dying for..."

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First of all, OT has never been more true.

 

Now for my rant - Why does every proponent of abortion defend it as a means of birth control? I'm a christian, but I am not catholic, and I think birth control is great (as in the pill, condoms, etc.) 99% of all abortions could be avoided if people took the time to avoid unwanted pregnancies, but thousands of guys can't be bothered to use a condom, let alone try the failed "male pill" - or at least make sure your girlfriend is using birth control medication responsibly and correctly. I guess the absence of legalized abortions would make the implications of shacking up with random women a bit more serious, or the consequences of becoming sexually active while you are still in high school. That is a lot to ask of most people - might as well take it out on the babies.

 

Personally, I won't have to worry about it because I am remaining abstinent before marriage, and I also plan to adopt at least one child, so if anyone is willing to forgo an abortion, there will be at least one home out there willing to help out.

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I'm asking you to clarify more than anything. You believe that in order to avoid being hypocritical, we shouldn't feel badly about anyone/anything dying? We should be utterly neutral?

 

 

I'm drawing a distinction that most people have between "life" and "human life." I'm less concerned with "life" than I am with "human life." I'm not saying that we shouldn't care about the lives of other kinds of things, but that there's logical inconsistency in the "sanctity of life" argument. I do not believe a 3 week old fetus = a human, whether it is alive or not. Have you ever killed a bee or a fly? Have you ever worn leather shoes? It's really difficult to argue for the universal sanctity of living things as our single guiding principle. Human life is, to me, something of a different category.

 

To be clear, I have reservations about late term abortions as well. I don't accept that they are malicious (like the torturing of the dog) or the same thing as murder. I also think, based on the best data available, that late term abortions are the exception and not the rule, that they are used as a tool by "pro life" activists to draw an unrealistic picture of abortion practices.

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You have a lot of flawed ideas here, but this one is something I will bother with. More than ever, there are responsible, caring, capable couples who can't conceive and want children. It's become a pretty big business importing adoptions from abroad. It's expensive because of the huge demand. I guess I'm trying to tell you that there aren't any unwanted babies so much as unwanted pregnancies. There's a big difference, if you really want to think about it.

 

 

Kitty Rose, is that you? "flawed ideas". Oy Vey. I don't know your background. Maybe you've adopted and you're speaking from experience on your end of things. Yes, international adoption is big business. People mistakenly think they'll get healthier babies overseas (and if we're honest, White babies). FWIW, China is one of the best places to adopt. Stay away from places like Kazakhstan, and places from the former Soviet Union.

 

Look up the term Reactive Attachment Disorder. See, on my end of things, there are plenty of unwanted babies and I've worked with them, treated some of them, and watched many of them start out their lives in abusive, neglectful situations only to be bounced around various foster homes, residential placements, and eventually jail. Or, dead. So don't attempt to assume you have any kind of idea of where I come from and what I've seen.

 

It'd be great if there were no abortions. Honestly. I'd much rather see kids get the sex education they need so they can avoid pregnancy. But see, the same people that don't want to fund the programs that I work for are the same people who support our current president in providing federal funding ONLY to abstinence-based sex education. Yup, you can teach kids about absitenence and get federal dollars, but if you want to talk about condoms, the pill, etc, you're on your own.

 

Unless you're gonna tell me that you've adopted or work in the social services field, you can stay on your soap box so you don't have to get your feet dirty.

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