How important is a buffer?

[yell tennis]

Hello,

 

I need a boost pedal. I currently have 3 true bypass pedals. I am looking at either the BYOC Triboost (which would total 4 TB pedals) or Dr. Scientist's The Cleanness (buffer/boost). I was looking at MI Audio's Boost n Buff, but I'd like a little more tonal variety.

 

Would the 4 true bypass pedals load down my signal much? I won't be using more than 30 feet of cable. Sorry for my ignorance of buffers and the like--I'm just wondering how necessary they are (though I recognize that it's rather dependent on my rig).

[IvIark]

30 feet of cable will almost certainly have an effect on your tone with 4 TB pedals. I don't know what the spacing is between your pedals but when you kick in the first pedal and put a buffer in the signal path, it's like changing from a 30 foot cable to a 10 foot cable (for instance) and consequently the load on your pickups drops which will change the volume and tone. If you plug into a buffer first, the low impedance output can drive the signal over much greater distances and you should see a noticible improvement.

 

You don't have to pay a great deal for this type of device though, I bought a Doobtone MicroBuffer 2 a couple of years ago for about

[pbone]

What do you mean "load down"? They're not deathly necessary, but some people (including myself) like having them in their chain. You can definitely go without.

[Zachman]

From Custom Audio Electronics' website: Hope this helps clear things up a bit for those interested.

3. What are buffers and how are they used?

Buffers are extremely important in a multi-component system. They are often misunderstood and often get a bad rap by those who are uninformed. In a CAE system, a buffer is a unity gain (input level equals output level) impedance converting circuit. It essentially protects your high impedance guitar output (or any other high impedance source, such as an amps' effects loop send) from being loaded down by the input it is connected to. In effect, it converts high impedance to low, which means subsequent stages are then driven by a low impedance source (the buffer's output). High impedance sources such as your guitar's output (assuming you have passive pickups) has very little current drive capability and it's signal is subject to a harsh environment once it leaves the guitar. You already know the adverse affect a long cable has on your tone. Same thing happens if you pass your signal through a bunch of effects pedals. Even if they have "true bypass" (an ugly, over-used term), each one will suck a little more of your signal along with the cables and connectors, mainly due to capacitive loading of your high impedance guitar signal. The end result is a muffled weak signal that lacks clarity. But once your high impedance guitar signal hits a properly designed buffer with a high input impedance, the buffer takes over, and uses its higher current capability (remember, its an active circuit that requires a power supply) to drive all subsequent stages, thus preserving your instrument's tone. This brings us to buffer quality. Buffers come in all types of designs, from discrete transistor, op-amp, to esoteric tube designs. All have their own unique sonic stamp. At CAE we use the op-amp approach. It has served us well for years, is low noise, and is extremely transparent to our ears. Buffers often get blamed for causing an overly bright sound, but we feel if its designed properly, any perceived "brightness" is because now the guitar is not being loaded down by subsequent stages!

Buffers can cause problems, too. There are some effects devices that don't like to see the low output impedance of a buffer. These are typically discrete transistor designed fuzz circuits (such as the Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face). They react better to the high impedance output of the guitar. In fact, the guitar output, cable and input stage of the Fuzz Face complete a circuit that is highly dependent of those 3 components to work correctly. Fuzz Faces clean up nicely when you roll back the guitar volume control... not so if a buffer is between the guitar and Fuzz Face input. So if you have a pedal board with a Fuzz Face on it , put it first! Other pedals may react the same way. Experiment to see what works best for you. Keep in mind all active pedals (such as Boss, Ibanez, etc...) act as buffers and will impart their own sonic stamp even when bypassed. This is what started the whole "true bypass" (ugh! that term again) craze. See? Too much of a good thing can be "bad". Which brings us to how we utilize buffers in CAE custom switchers. We only use buffers where absolutely necessary. Typically, in a pedal based system we will not buffer until after the first 4-5 loops, which is usually just prior to sending the signal down to the pedal board (via a long cable run, hence the need to buffer) to hit the wah/volume pedals. Any more than 4 or 5 loops, and the guitar signal may be affected by capacitive loading. So the first few loops is where you would put any impedance sensitive effects. This also means your guitar will go through fuzz, overdrive or distortion pedals BEFORE the wah. We prefer this order because the wah then has a more harmonically rich signal to filter. Try it yourself. Of course, if a specific order is required, we will do everything we can to make it happen. Buffers are also necessary to drive isolation transformers, since the relatively low primary impedance of the transformers may be detrimental to whatever circuit is feeding it. This is also why amp splitter circuits must be buffered. You can't drive multiple amps with a relatively high impedance source. So there usually is a buffer somewhere in the output stage of your custom switcher. That's usually it. 2 places minimum. There may be more active stages depending on your system requirements.

[yell tennis]

Cool, thanks for the information! I know that a lack of a buffer will not kill my sound, but I figure with the money I put into my gear, I want the best sound that I can get. It seems that I would benefit from a good buffer.

[Zachman]

Cool, thanks for the information! I know that a lack of a buffer will not kill my sound, but I figure with the money I put into my gear, I want the best sound that I can get. It seems that I would benefit from a good buffer.

 

Sounds like a buffer at the end of your chain before you run back to your amp from the floor will be sufficient, if you feel the need to buffer. Best of luck, and above all enjoy your gear. I recommend contacting Dave Phillips at LA Sound Design and let him know Zach Petersen referred you, he makes some GREAT products at reasonable prices.

[IvIark]

 

Sounds like a buffer at the end of your chain

 

 

It depends where the longest length of cable is. Personally I prefer it at the beginning of the chain so that it works directly with the signal from your pickups and no matter what happens after it (in terms of pedals being kicked in), that connection is never broken.

[loomer415]

SPAM ALERT!

 

I have a catalinbread SCP buff/boost if you're interested.

 

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

[Zachman]

It depends where the longest length of cable is. Personally I prefer it at the beginning of the chain so that it works directly with the signal from your pickups and no matter what happens after it (in terms of pedals being kicked in), that connection is never broken.

As quoted, from Bob Bradshaw... in my previous post, it depends on several possible factors, cable length being only one of them, though is definitely a factor for consideration.

Many factors come into play when putting ANYTHING between your guitar and amp input. Not to mention the quality/length of cable. Depending on the type of Switching (Not all are equally of like/good quality) some like in my CAE switching system are performed by high quality passive relays which impart no sonic coloration of their own (others may and do affect the tone negatively), and meticulous placement of active circuitry (buffers) in the signal path insures your original tone remains intact. If you are using passive pickups, putting a buffer in the front of your signal chain can negatively impact the responsiveness of your guitar's pickups' tone and character. Experimentation to see if the differences are acceptable is recommended, though not always feasible for many.

Trust me when I say that I've gone through a lot of gear and running it in configurations that most haven't, and have come to appreciate rigs done well/right.

I use several setups, depending on the situations, and run simple guitar- amp, guitar amp and a few pedals to quite an elaborate rig running, what perhaps 1% of guys in the world would run, and when things get to the point that you're deciding if buffers, TB, Series, Parallel, line mixers, level shifting circuits to run a combo of pedals and rack gear, multiple amp switching, stereo, W/D, W/D/W rigs etc... are that integral in your setup as such, every little thing becomes a much more integral factor. In a smaller setup, yes, it can make a difference, but won't likely kill the results. IMO...

My rig of doom: Not my first, but the most current and the most efficient, and versatile compared to the previous versions I've designed and built.

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[willhaven]

I tried A/Bing my pedal board and the direct signal into my amp... the difference was crazy. Even 7 pedals with relatively short cables butchered the clarity of the guitar sound.

 

It's not just a treble decrease, it was far worse. Not something a simple tone tweak could really repair.

 

I'm now doing an audio switching rig similar to Zach's above to cure my pedal string tone sucking issues. I also wanted to add more pedals and control them without tap dancing any more.

 

VHT makes a nice tube buffer that my father uses. Valvulator I think it's called.

[IvIark]

 

As quoted, from Bob Bradshaw... in my previous post, it depends on several possible factors, cable length being only one of them, though is definitely a factor for consideration. Many factors come into play when putting ANYTHING between your guitar and amp input.

 

 

Yes you did Zach but you also said "a buffer at the end of your chain" but that might not solve the problem.

 

If you put a buffer at the end of the chain, and the last pedal is on all the time (being last in the chain it could be reverb so it's a possibility) then the buffer is only working on the cable from the last effect to the amp. If he had 25 feet of cable running through the other 3 true bypass effects, then the pickup loading can still occur.

[Zachman]

Yes you did Zach but you also said "a buffer at the end of your chain" but that might not solve the problem. If you put a buffer at the end of the chain, and the last pedal is on all the time (being last in the chain it could be reverb so it's a possibility) then the buffer is only working on the cable from the last effect to the amp. If he had 25 feet of cable running through the other 3 true bypass effects, then the pickup loading can still occur.

The OP said he had 3-4 pedals, and I can't even fathom why anyone in that situation would be using 25 feet of cable between 3-4 pedals, (That's approximately 6-8 foot long patch cords) but maybe I'm just weird in that I don't think it's too likely anyone does things that way, I dunno- call me crazy.

You are correct that the main reason to use a buffer with only 3-4 pedals- is for a long cable run, which is exactly why I suggested it at the end of the signal chain before going from the pedal board back to the amp.

[Matt0201]

You don't have to pay a great deal for this type of device though, I bought a Doobtone MicroBuffer 2 a couple of years ago for about

[IvIark]

He said he won't be using more than 30 feet of cable for the 4 effects and I would have thought that you of all people would see that the final cable from effect to amp can be a short patch cable, especially if the effects are racked.

 

But it could be 60 feet of cable, the length isn't as important as the fact that if the buffer is only working on the 'final effect to amp cable' - then it isn't assisting the pickups in any way and loading can still occur.

[IvIark]

 

Are the micobuffers still available?

 

 

I'm not 100% sure. I know the guy who made them had back problems and I heard that it had stopped him making them.

 

If you're handy you could have a look at one of the DIY pedal suppliers and see if any do kits. The AMZ mosfet is a simple design and you could make one pretty easily.

[Zachman]

But it could be 60 feet of cable, the length isn't as important as the fact that if the buffer is only working on the 'final effect to amp cable' - then it isn't assisting the pickups in any way and loading can still occur.

 

 

Depends... maybe true, maybe not- though length of cable can certainly make a huge impact on loading down ones' signal

[L6Sguy]

The OP said he had 3-4 pedals, and I can't even fathom why anyone in that situation would be using 25 feet of cable between 3-4 pedals, (That's approximately 6-8 foot long patch cords).....

 

 

i was thinking 18-20' from gtr to first pedal, then to a few fx pedals, that'd be about 20ish feet at the end of the stompbox chain.

[Zachman]

i was thinking 18-20' from gtr to first pedal, then to a few fx pedals, that'd be about 20ish feet at the end of the stompbox chain.

 

Would you use a buffer plugging straight into your amp w/ your 20' cable?

 

Neither would I..., nor would I worry about using a buffer w 4 pedals until at the end of the pedal chain for the longer cable run back to the amp, if at all... but with only 30 feet of cable being specified being in use w/ all TB pedals I don't really think a buffer is ESSENTIAL...

 

The OP also didn't happen to mention whether or not he was using active pickups, unless I missed that. He also didn't happen to mention what pedals he was currently using only that they were all TB, and that he wouldn't be using more than 30 feet of cable, and that he was looking into adding a boost pedal.

 

It seems that there is some controversy over my statements... and opinion. Hope this^ clears it up.

[IvIark]

No controversy Zach, I just disagree with where you'd put the buffer. I see no advantage in putting it at the end of the chain or anywhere that can break the connection to your pickups. But we'll agree to disagree eh!

[Zachman]

 

I see no advantage in putting it at the end of the chain or anywhere that can break the connection to your pickups.

 

 

Breaking the connection to your pickups is an open circuit, and will result in deafening silence.

 

Oh ya, the advantage to putting a buffer at the end of your signal chain before a long cable run from your pedal board back to your amp, is specifically to prevent your signal from being loaded down with capacitive loading, and yes I assumed it was a pedal board and not a 2 foot patch cord with the pedal sitting on the guys' amp.

[IvIark]

Well actually I'm not disagreeing with Bob Bradshaw, and if I was making a multiple loop switching system then I'd do exactly the same, but there's a reason he does it that way. He likes the first 3 or 4 loops to be before the buffer simply because it allows people to use effects in there that react better with a high impedance input. He's selling a switching system not a string of effects and so he doesn't know what pedals are necessarily going to end up in which loop - peoples effect collections change. So what he's basically saying is that if you are using one of the pedals that require a high impedance input, then put them in the first 3 or 4 loops. There is no doubt at all that if I were using a 16 loop CAE switching system and the first 4 loops were before the buffer, that I would start using my pedals at loop 5 and reserve the unbuffered loops. More likely I would ask for only 1 or 2 loops before the buffer and reserve them because i'm unlikely to use any of the effects that require a high impedance input.

 

But we're not talking about switching systems, you brought them into the equation - we're talking about a simple line of 4 effects. And so yell tennis doesn't have to make allowances in the same way that Bob has to. If he gets a Fuzz Face at some time in the future then he can put that before the buffer, but otherwise, and as Bob states, "It essentially protects your high impedance guitar output (or any other high impedance source, such as an amps' effects loop send) from being loaded down by the input it is connected to" - so I suspect Bob would also see little sense in separating the buffer from the very thing is is designed to protect.

[whitepapagold]

:poke:

[Zachman]

Would you use a buffer plugging straight into your amp w/ your 20' cable? Neither would I..., nor would I worry about using a buffer w 4 pedals until at the end of the pedal chain for the longer cable run back to the amp, if at all... but with only 30 feet of cable being specified being in use w/ all TB pedals I don't really think a buffer is ESSENTIAL... The OP also didn't happen to mention whether or not he was using active pickups, unless I missed that. He also didn't happen to mention what pedals he was currently using only that they were all TB, and that he wouldn't be using more than 30 feet of cable, and that he was looking into adding a boost pedal. Hope this^ clears it up.

[orourke]

Lot's of good info in this thread.

[IvIark]

 

Nor do I, as noted when I stated that I didn't think a buffer was essential at all- with only 4 pedals and a max of 30' of cable, so... What is your point?

 

 

Not being funny Zach but who cares whether you think it's essential or not? If someone feels he's losing some treble when using 30' of cable in total as opposed to when he uses a single cable directly to the amp - then a buffer is the product to help him out. My point has never been about whether to use one or not - he wants to use one and that's it. My point is about the positioning of the buffer and nothing more. I know for instance that yell tennis has an RC2 in his looper and it is always on. Now this essentially means that if he uses a buffer at the end of the line like you suggest, it will never connect to his pickups which are the very things he's trying to protect. In fact, in that system the final line is buffered anyway by the RC2 which is another reason why its inclusion at the end would be pointless.

Now you can argue this all you like Zach. But at the end of the day, you've read a few pages about the CAE switching systems and you think that is the way it should be used every time. In that I disagree. Your suggestion can offer about as much protection to the loading of his pickups as he would get if he paints his cables green.

 

So the real question is, what possible reasons are there for not using a buffer first assuming no temperamental pedals are being used? Why ever put something else in between a buffer and the pickups if you don't have to? I don't think Bob really covers any of that on his info page so you may need to email him to get your answer.