"Fair Game" for Cloning?

[KennethNishimot]

An ethical conundrum has come to my attention that I wish to turn to HCFX to help answering. In your opinion, when does a guitar pedal become "Fair Game" for trading it's schems and cloning it?

 

I'd love to hear your thoughts and concerns on this issue.

 

Of course, If this is the wrong forum for such discussion, or if this gets too heated, feel free to either move or lock it.

[shaun126]

let me sum it up

 

it's cool to clone

 

no it's not

 

well its ok if its not in production

 

every pedal is based on "something"

 

pictures of generic stuff

 

the end

[T Stre]

It seems to me like once a pedal goes out of production people feel ok to clone it.

[T Stre]

let me sum it up it's cool to clone no it's not well its ok if its not in production every pedal is based on "something" pictures of generic stuff the end

 

 

as simple as this seems, it's pretty accurate.

[sdresdre]

this has been discussed in GREAT length already..............

[Clorox]

50 pages by noon tomorrow

[mike.sartori]

Here's my opinion.

 

It's ok to clone:

 

1. things that aren't manufactured anymore

2. things that are made differently than they used to be.

3. things that you want to try but don't want to spend a lot of money on.

4. things you kinda like but don't want to spend money on.

5. things that you think are kinda cool but are too expensive.

6. anything you can find a schematic for.

 

Remember, nothing can replace the authentic look of a brand-name enclosure, or the exact quality of an authentic pedal.

[amp_surgeon]

Ethical doesn't matter as much as legal.

If you're going to sell the clones then the circuit must either be unpatented, or the patents have expired, or you've licensed the circuit from the patent holder. Utility patents are usually good for 20 years. Design patents are good for either 17 years (filed before 1995) or 14 years (filed after 1995).

Just because a circuit design may no longer be in production does not mean that you can legally clone it for profit, even if the company is no longer in business. In fact, it's common for companies that go out of business to sell their patents along with their other assets. If the circuit was originally introduced less than 20 years ago then you should check to make sure it's not covered by a patent, even if the company is out of business.

Trademarks can be continuously renewed, so even if the circuit is clear of patents it may not be legal for you to use the original name for the circuit if someone still holds a trademark on it.

If you're building it for your own personal use then you can clone whatever you want to, even if it's patented. You just can't sell it unless your clone does not infringe on any patents or trademarks.

Schematics are usually copyrighted. You can't distribute a reproduction of someone else's schematic drawing without their permission. The term for a copyright varies from one country to another, but is usually at least 50 years.

It's usually legal for you to produce and distribute your own schematic drawing of someone else's circuit, provided you were not bound by a non-disclosure agreement or other similar contract.

Exceptions for ALL of these occur if the patent, trademark, or copyright has been released into the public domain by the owner.

[SharkMinusBear]

this thread is pointless... people argue both sides and it will inevitably turn into a flame war.

:bor:

[rocket34bg]

if you have the technology to clone, do it

if you have the money to buy a clone and you want one, do it

if you have the internet, download music

i don't care if people think it's unethical. cloning = progress

[andreas]

An ethical conundrum has come to my attention that I wish to turn to HCFX to help answering. In your opinion, when does a guitar pedal become "Fair Game" for trading it's schems and cloning it?

If you've drawn up your own schematic, you can share it all you want - it is your drawing/artwork, to which you hold the copyright. Factory schematics/service notes belong to the copyright holder (usually the manufacturer), and can't legally be shared on-line.

 

As for cloning, it's the same deal. Legally, as long as you draw up your own circuit board layout, and as long as there are no active patents involved in the circuit (which there rarely are), you're free to do what you want. There are of course trademark and trade dress concerns - the box, name, logo etc can't be too close, or you are exposing yourself to legal action.

 

Ethically, it can be different (or not - most of the heated discussions tend to be centered around this). Even if you navigate around all the legal stuff, making your "Kron Unicorn" a unique product (even though it is really a reverse-engineered and redrawn version of a more famous circuit), is it right? That's the question... there are no simple rules here, so each case would need to be judged individually. Some of the factors involved can be (and remember, the relative merit of these factors themselves are also subject to discussion):

 

 

• . Are you cloning and building pedals for yourself, for your own enjoyment (or as a means of owning long gone gems that are no longer available to mere mortals)? Or are you cloning and building pedals to sell for profit? Most likely, you'll find yourself somewhere in between...

 

This is not an easy or clear-cut issue, as there are so many variables and levels of cloning involved - everything from hobbyists building pedals for themselves, to people selling fake boutique pedals on eBay. And we haven't even touched on the bigger fish... Behringer's quite obvious nod towards Boss pedals, Danelectro minis that draw heavily (circuit-wise) on older circuits, various boutique manufacturers using old fuzz/overdrive/compressor/etc circuits as a base for their products. Not to mention the gazillion variations on the Tube Screamer circuit... The list is virtually endless, which only proves how hard it is to even find a clear definition of the term "clone" these days.

 

/Andreas

[TheGareth]

How many posts until someone mentions the forbidden forum or "him"?

[bleepedybloops]

when youre not selling it

[almightycrunch]

clone whatever you want, for yourself, BUT you cant sell somebody elses circuit for profit.

[cloudscapes]

pedals that aren't in production is fine

cloning a small number of current production ones might be ok, though less-so

cloning two or three current production pedals is fine, especially if youre doing it for yourself and a friend, and/or to learn

mass cloning current production pedals is totally not cool (ex: behringer)

[kriista]

I think cloning anything is alright. As long as your not using the name/art.

Very few effects/pedals are actually new, so 'cloning' is a very loose term in this regard.

It also keeps prices down, and encourages new designs.

As much flack as behringer gets, theyre forcing the companies theyre 'cloning' to make it better, cheaper, different.

Also, in most cases(although not the case in the botique, less than 10parts world), it's more expensive to make a clone, of the same quality.

[whoismilan]

How many posts until someone mentions the forbidden forum or "him"?

 

I've seen that mentioned before. What is it, the "forbidden forum"? It sounds like something which will be in the new Indiana Jones movie.

[TomCTC]

Nothing wrong with cloning from a consumer standpoint. If someone wants to make me something that works just as good as the other guy's stuff with better parts/quality at a cheaper price, then I'm all for it.

I'd actually love to buy some powdercoated clones and do my own artwork on them.

[bucky]

 

I've seen that mentioned before. What is it, the "forbidden forum"? It sounds like something which will be in the new Indiana Jones movie.

 

 

(Link removed by Phil)

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

the "forbidden forum" is the name i coined for fs.org because the moderator has deemed linking to that site "inappropriate." This is an objectionable action, but harmony central can really do what it wants. The site contains many schematics for many boutique pedals that are sold today. The forum was founded and spun off from diystompboxes.com which prohibited publishing these schematics out of respect for the builders. No schematics means no learning and a significant number of members objected to this and went on to have their own forum at fs.org. You can always gain access to the site through my blog (below). The site is itself is perfectly legal in all respect. No laws are broken and if it knows it is breaking the law, it would not do it. The schematics are reversed by independent people and often under the collaboration of many. This forum doesn't endorse cloning for profit.

 

as for the ethics of cloning, this is beaten to death. Everyone has their own idea of ethics. We can't agree. Imagine the abortion versus woman's right to choose. No one agrees. That is why there are laws. Cloning is much more clear cut than that. Cloning unpatented, unprotected circuits is completely legal even if it's for money as long as copyrights and trademarks are respected. The critics only have an emotional argument calling this "stealing." The irony is that many of these same critics are "cloning" existing circuits that others made before them and many of them choose not to disclose this fact.

[voerking]

clone whatever you want, for yourself, BUT you cant sell somebody elses circuit for profit.

exactly. i love the intellectual curiosity aspect of DIY, but when it becomes an 'i can make you a clone for cheaper ' kinda thing, i don't approve - unless it's an out-of-production, unavailable product.

[FuzzShifter]

As long as Pres. Bush doesn't object to cloning pedals, for your own amusement, it should be OK. But, he's a dumb{censored}, and so are most of the people trying to protect their nine-component + controls pedal designs.

[SharkMinusBear]

How many posts until someone mentions the forbidden forum or "him"?

 

 

do you speak of "he who must not be named"?

[New Trail]

do you speak of " he who must not be named"?

 

 

Chris Greene?

[IvIark]

Anything's fair game for cloning if it's for yourself. If you do it to sell the end results and call your new booster a "Wonderful Erection" and give it a nursery paint job then you're asking for trouble though.