Members Allerian Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 But if you don't get off to the sheer sounds of things like running engines, dishwashers, construction noises, boiling water, explosions, radio static, the buzz of voices and feet in a large, echoey mall, the reverb of an overdriven boombox in a large aluminum-sided shed, the sound you get dragging an old heavy metal file cabinet over a concrete floor.....maybe the noise thing is not your cuppa. Very good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members girevik Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 One of my favorite DC noise musicians is TL0741. His main instrument is a Fenix modular analog system, which he supplements in live performance with a CD player or two. He's always amazed me with his ability to make music on synth without a keyboard. http://www.myspace.com/tl0741 I used to be in a band with this guy: http://www.outdegree.com/ This was my favorite DC noise band, until one of them moved to NYC:http://www.mikroknytes.com/ See previous post for the Baltimore folks. PS. Not all noise performances are a statement of some kind for or against anything. Sometimes, it's just art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Re-Member Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 While I can't speak on behalf of any other noise based artists, I personally have much admiration for the Dada movement. I used to perform with a song called "Disco Dada" which was just one cheesy bassline and a disco beat looped for about 15 minutes. My vocalist and I would take turns playing improv over it using synth, samples and a radio routed through effects, plus we would take turns doing vocals off the top of our head. Damn near everyone in the audience would leave or throw things at us, but at the very least it was an honest tribute to Dada.P.S. for you noise guys...Has there been any mention of the DADA movement as a manifesto inspiration for the work you do?All this talk has reminded me of Tristan Tzara and his theatre work.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 But if you don't get off to the sheer sounds of things like running engines, dishwashers, construction noises, boiling water, explosions, radio static, the buzz of voices and feet in a large, echoey mall, the reverb of an overdriven boombox in a large aluminum-sided shed, the sound you get dragging an old heavy metal file cabinet over a concrete floor.....maybe the noise thing is not your cuppa. Excellent point. And this is probably the source of my distaste for the genre. I'm hypersensitive to sonic environments...I feel nauseous when a loud siren drives by. I feel crippled when I hear construction. This, also, serves my strengths as a theatre sound designer. When I create sound cues, I do it with painful precision. I work out of impulse. Sound does certain things to my body and if I'm building an "ugly" sound (like the ones I've described above), I let me body react violently against it....then I know I've accomplished something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greaseenvelope Posted November 27, 2007 Author Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 Thoroughly loving this no bull{censored} thread. You guys are way meaner than all the "dark harsh walls" artists on the noise board. I have to say, this kind of behavior is kind of where my stereotype of noise evolved from. Primarily the "fans" who will mosh and dance and I think "pretend" to get into what they're hearing. And then you'll see them at the bar talking about how profoundly beautiful the noise is and that it moved them to tears because it was so "honest" and "gorgeous". What if I told you the people weren't pretending. That they actually felt that way about the experience they were having. And that they couldn't care less what others think about it. The overwhelming kinetic sensation I get from listening to good, focused noise, well-mixed dn'b, or hyper-complex math/prog is the same, and often I must react to it. Sorry if that means you think I'm lame. I'd rather have people freaking out than everyone sitting around looking stoic, although those shows are ok too. In well-balanced noise shows there will be acts that will bring a little of both. The order shouldn't just be a calculation of "who's the headliner" but what will bring a flow of events to an evening. You guys who think all noise acts are just "blastyblastyblasty" are wrong, and often booking at these shows involves drone, free improv, or other music acts who are too weird to play with anyone else (for example the Beefheart inspired Fat Worm of Error). I'm having a old-time-meets-Fahey style banjo player at a show I'm doing in feb for the previously mentioned instrument builder Peter Blasser, along with other juxtapositions of electronic and instrumental acts. I love how every thread I make lately relating my own musical life to you folks results in a thread about whether noise is a valid pursuit or not. This being a moot question, as I and others are already pursuing it and arguably have been since the days of early electronic music. And we will continue to do so. A lot of noise may be boring, too loud, and moronically confrontational, but it's where I fit in at the moment doing what I do, so thats what I call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mytee2.0 Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 One of my favorite DC noise musicians is TL0741. His main instrument is a Fenix modular analog system, which he supplements in live performance with a CD player or two. He's always amazed me with his ability to make music on synth without a keyboard. http://www.myspace.com/tl0741 I used to be in a band with this guy: http://www.outdegree.com/ This was my favorite DC noise band, until one of them moved to NYC: http://www.mikroknytes.com/See previous post for the Baltimore folks. PS. Not all noise performances are a statement of some kind for or against anything. Sometimes, it's just art. any links to shows or anything remotely related to noise and experimental weirdness in the northern virginia, DC metro area?I really want to check this stuff out in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greaseenvelope Posted November 27, 2007 Author Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 Don't misrepresent me as ignorant and unyielding just because I don't like the way your static sonatas sound. If you read more carefully, I was actually talking about this sentence here: The "musicians" are adjusting parameters with little to no predictable outcome. This statement is untrue. And as I clearly stated, you or anyone else hating noise is totally cool with me. As to the scoring argument, I would say that yes indeed if you had the gear that Hans Grusel's Krankenkabinet uses and access to their scores you could probably play their pieces 200 years from now. But if you didn't have any audio recordings to compare with I'm sure it would deviate as much as it does for instance with classical musicians playing older music. The idea that noise might develop a body of known tunes and works like in classical music is admittedly laughable. Although HGKK and those like them certainly might. ps Akliner the artist Bran(..)Pos I mentioned is actually employed in your field. He does sound and acts in theater productions throughout the Bay Area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greaseenvelope Posted November 27, 2007 Author Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 And maybe some of the "noise artists" are into making anti-art statements. Ok, it's a free country, etc., but that's a tired old angle, a one-point dogma sort of statement which once you've seen, you've seen'em all. But if you don't get off to the sheer sounds of things like running engines, dishwashers, construction noises, boiling water, explosions, radio static, the buzz of voices and feet in a large, echoey mall, the reverb of an overdriven boombox in a large aluminum-sided shed, the sound you get dragging an old heavy metal file cabinet over a concrete floor.....maybe the noise thing is not your cuppa. Calling the genre "Noise" has an ironical edge to it, anyway. The terms implies at least in many usages an unwanted, unpleasant thing, like "pain" or "nausea". So the genre name operates in itself as sort of a gatekeeper to the experience of the performances, setting up audience expectations according to their predilections and how the term "noise" connotes to each listener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Meatball Fulton Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 It helps, if you are inclined to at least try to approach listening to noise material, if you already have a liking for genres like dark ambient, industrial, etc. I came into "noise" from Zappa, Beefheart, "free jazz" and 20th century "classical" music (John Cage, Varese, musique concrete, etc.). Probably because I'm wicked ancient I don't like Merzbow either, BTW. It's often hard for me to figure out whether a noise "artist" is just doing totally random stuff or there is some actual thought behind it. With Merzbow, I really don't hear anything but noise (literally). Some years ago Wynton Marsalis hosted a radio series about jazz and one week he discussed free jazz. Surprisingly he was very even-handed about it. He pointed out that many people accept (saxophonist) John Coltrane's late period music because he had already come up through bebop and modal playing. Yet the very similar sounding Albert Ayler was often ridiculed because there was no reference point, no one had ever heard him play straight ahead. So Wynton posed the obvious question: if you didn't know about Coltrane's earlier music would it be as easy to reject his later music as Ayler's was? Funny thing, in comparison to Merzbow even Albert Ayler sounds pretty normal :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 If you read more carefully, I was actually talking about this sentence here:This statement is untrue. And as I clearly stated, you or anyone else hating noise is totally cool with me. As to the scoring argument, I would say that yes indeed if you had the gear that Hans Grusel's Krankenkabinet uses and access to their scores you could probably play their pieces 200 years from now. But if you didn't have any audio recordings to compare with I'm sure it would deviate as much as it does for instance with classical musicians playing older music. The idea that noise might develop a body of known tunes and works like in classical music is admittedly laughable. Although HGKK and those like them certainly might.ps Akliner the artist Bran(..)Pos I mentioned is actually employed in your field. He does sound and acts in theater productions throughout the Bay Area. THIS statement is untrue. URtext editions of music scores are derived from the same manuscripts the composers penned. I own many of them. If you would read later in this thread, I have shown that I am not hostile to the art, but through conventional logic I am not prepared to call it music (but why would you want to call it music?) Seriously...I think the some of the manifesto foundation of the noise genre is fascinating. I'm going to investigate it more. But when somebody says something like "I can't play the guitar, so I make a different form of music"...I hear: "I am unable to play music. Instead, I will make noise with these instruments and then laugh in your pathetic face for not understanding the genius of my music" It's laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members girevik Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 any links to shows or anything remotely related to noise and experimental weirdness in the northern virginia, DC metro area? I really want to check this stuff out in person. Some of my usual sources for DC area shows: Electric Possible Monthly Concert series at GWU: http://www.panicresearch.com/electric_poss.html Clavius Productions (Scott books more than just noise - good stuff either way): http://611florida.alkem.org/ Another DC-based artist I forgot to mention - they don't do noise 100% of the time, but they do it a lot (and are very good on guitar and cello): http://www.myspace.com/janelandanthony And yet another one - almost all their noise comes from acoustic sources: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZboxok7KCA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greaseenvelope Posted November 27, 2007 Author Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 THIS statement is untrue. URtext editions of music scores are derived from the same manuscripts the composers penned. I own many of them. I'm done arguing with you. However, I have a question for my own education. I seem to remember something about Beethoven improvising on the organ for long periods of time using only one sheet of music. Are you meaning to tell me anyone could replicate that music nowadays with that one? I have a very interesting book called improvisation by Darek Bailey. In it he speaks with several classical historians who seem to suggest that certain playing idioms were lost in time, or can perhaps best be explained as some kind of improvisation. This kind of thing is what I was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members girevik Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 Improvisation is not organized music??? I disagree with that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 Improvisation is not organized music???I disagree with that one. I'm not trying to be overly combative, and I'm very interested in learning more about an art form in which I will freely admit I'm not educated. I'm sorry if you find my challenges repellant, although I am having a great time discussing it with other noise enthusiasts in this thread. Yes, musical improvisation is indeed music! Improvisation is the medium used by many musicians to generate the ideas they will ultimately score. My point is that even if the notes are never written down, they have the potential to be. If somebody were scribing Beethoven's every improvisation, they would fit in the very same format and methodology of his classic masterpieces. He was playing in TIME; he was playing identifiable TONES. Hence, the organization of SOUND in TIME...music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members girevik Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 Well, I can at least say that if and when you do meet Neil Feather, you'll find he welcomes dialogue and even a little debate - he's a sweet guy who won't hurt you even though he occasionally looks like a Hell's Angel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 Well, I can at least say that if and when you do meet Neil Feather, you'll find he welcomes dialogue and even a little debate - he's a sweet guy who won't hurt you even though he occasionally looks like a Hell's Angel. I hope I get that opportunity. I'm not able to listen now, but his instrument inventions seem to be pretty neat. I'm quite taken by the "Nondo". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yoozer Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 That's my breaking point in terms of noise. Tried it, didn't like it, but I'm happy for you that you got on a documentary. "This one goes to eleven" can not be repeated enough . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members droolmaster0 Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 I'm always amused by people who try to define what music is not. If this bowl of soup makes noise, and I manipulate it to my liking, then it's music. Everyone else be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwD05XA2YQThat's my breaking point in terms of noise. Tried it, didn't like it, but I'm happy for you that you got on a documentary. "This one goes to eleven" can not be repeated enough . Oh yah...me likee much that Autechre video. It's drum n' bass format, mostly drum with extended breaks, all run through lord knows how many processes and edits. What's not to like:pnat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 I'm always amused by people who try to define what music is not. If this bowl of soup makes noise, and I manipulate it to my liking, then it's music. Everyone else be damned. I understand that point of view, but I also celebrate music's deep historical roots and the people that have worked to define the common language we use to make music. As with many things in the avant-garde, if you cannot defend your creations, then you have no voice in the greater conversation. You have no place in the advancement and exploration of the arts. It sounds stuffy and academic, but that's my background and training. As far as I'm concerned, you music first understand and be fluent in the rules of a form before you break them. I even offered a historical nod to Dadaism to help support their cause and only one person acknowledged it. Oh well. I'm currently in the process of writing a 30 page paper about breaking the rules of musical theatre to accomodate rock music as a valid presence on the stage. I'm in full-throttle academic mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mytee2.0 Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 As with many things in the avant-garde, if you cannot defend your creations, then you have no voice in the greater conversation. You have no place in the advancement and exploration of the arts. this quote is just too silly for me. "you have no voice in the greater conversation."OH NOES!!! THE IN CROWD WONT LIKE MY NOISE ART CREATION!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members r33k Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 Is this music? It certainly doesn't fit your definition of organized sound in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 I agree with Akliner. Music has form, noise does not. However, that doesn't deny that noise can be art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1150A Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 I WANT to like this stuff, but I don't. At least not yet.. One band I recently saw was a band called "Geronimo." I don't know if this is what you would classify noise/experimental, but thats what I had though of when I heard them. I like them, but at the same time I hated them.http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=41918323 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted November 27, 2007 Members Share Posted November 27, 2007 this quote is just too silly for me. "you have no voice in the greater conversation." OH NOES!!! THE IN CROWD WONT LIKE MY NOISE ART CREATION!!! Again, that's fine that you feel that way. I suspect you've never had to write an academic article about your artistic work. Or that you've ever mounted a performance or an exhibit that was up for scrutiny by critics that later mischaracterized your creation to such an extreme that you felt absolutely compelled to respond to it.I have had to do both of those things.I know that you guys think I sound like a snotty asshole, but HONESTLY art making is my academic study. I really love new ideas and new work, but I know that I need my (theatre) work funded in some way. If I cannot defend my work clearly, articulately, and with a strong grounding in performance history I will not get the grants I need.That's where I'm coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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