Members GigMan Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Ok, I know there's a Kurzweil rep. who checks in here once in a while - can't remember who it is... I'm seriously jonesing to be plunking down my hard-earned caishish for a new gigging board of the Kurzweil (PC3X), Roland (RD700GX or 300GX) or Yamaha (S90ES) variety - even though it's the worst time since I'm taking the family to the Grand Canyon and points beyond this summer, but I digress... It'll be my 1st fully weighted kybd. purchase since my 1995 acquisition of a spankin' brand new Ensoniq KS32! (I did get the Roland FP2 88key semi-weighted dig. piano a few yrs. back as a lightweight portable 'board for cktl. hrs. but it just doesn't cut the mustard as a full-fledged gig 'board...) Anyway, I'm really impressed by the sound demos I've heard online of the Kurz PC3X - just waiting 'til I can compare it side-by-side in person w/the Roland offerings (RD700GX and 300GX) and perhaps the old stalwart Yamaha S90ES. I see on Roland's specs that they publish the amount of ROM waves in the RD700GX & 300GX: RD700GX has 256mb wav ROM RD300GX has 128mb wav ROM ...and Yamaha's shows specs for the S90ES: S90ES has 228mb wav ROM ...but Kurzweil doesn't seem to show the amount of ROM anywhere in their PC3X specs Anyone? Beuller? Anyone? Not that a few mb's of waveforms makes or breaks it - just curious, you know. I pretty much want to know every intimate detail of whatever 'board I wind up with. I may even buy it dinner afterward as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 What I read is that Kurzweil publishes their memory in a totally different fashion. They actually publish the compressed amount of Wave ROM they have, while the Big 3 always have a disclaimer after their wave capacity that says "when converted to linear 16-bit" or something like that.That's why the PC3X reportedly has 64Mb of compressed ROM, but once it's uncompressed, it could easily match or surpass those you mention. Hard to tell.Have you looked into the Fantom G8? It's more in the price range of the PC3X. Also, there's the M3 and the Motifs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Gigman, we may be in the same boat. Only I think you want more of a workstation, though. Have they finished blowing out the PC2x? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 What I read is that Kurzweil publishes their memory in a totally different fashion. They actually publish the compressed amount of Wave ROM they have, while the Big 3 always have a disclaimer after their wave capacity that says "when converted to linear 16-bit" or something like that. That's why the PC3X reportedly has 64Mb of compressed ROM, but once it's uncompressed, it could easily match or surpass those you mention. Hard to tell. Have you looked into the Fantom G8? It's more in the price range of the PC3X. Also, there's the M3 and the Motifs... Where are you reading the 64mb of "compressed" ROM - I don't see it anywhere on the Kurz. website... Re: Fantom G8 or Korg M3 G8 is too big - according to the Roland's specs - it weighs over 74lbs! Way too heavy for a gigging machine. Same w/the Motif XS8 - it's HUGE! 28.6kg - which is over 63lbs. As far as the Korg M3 - Korg makes great synths (I had an M1 and currently own a Triton Le) but their acoustic piano sounds make you want to blow chunks (they're horrible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Gigman, we may be in the same boat. Only I think you want more of a workstation, though. Have they finished blowing out the PC2x? Workstation? Not really - what I need is an 88key stage piano w/killer acoustic piano sounds, great EP's, nice organs, sweet strings, other misc. kybd. sounds (Clav, harpsi., CP70, etc...) as well as some decent synth-type sounds. It needs to be in the 50-55lb. range (or less) and needs to be easily navigable (the screen/display) on a dark stage and easy to change patches on the fly (which I'd be doing until I could get all the custom setups and combinations happnening). I can live w/out sequencing, though I do find it's nice that they added it on the Kurz. PC3X. I don't need the drum accompaniment, though having it on the Roland RD700GX or 300GX wouldn't be the worst thing in the world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Gigman, we may be in the same boat. Only I think you want more of a workstation, though. Have they finished blowing out the PC2x? Don't know but I've waited so long to upgrade my weighted-action keyboard that this point I'm willing to spend the $$ for the top-o-the-line & hope that I get many years' worth of use/enjoyment/financial return from it... rather than save money and go for last year's (or many years ago's) model. I just want to make sure that what I get is the best choice for me and what I do, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orangefunk Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Have had the GX for a few weeks now... here are my impressions: + awesome action and feel... best ever on a keyboard IMHO+ superb Superior Grand and even Ultimate Piano (this is amazing with some editing) sounds+ good selection of other rompler-esque sounds+ great fx+ inspirational+ mp3 playback+ phrase sample playback (really great... assigns the bottom keys to phrase just like Ableton Live) - new Expressive Grand is a mystery.. it sounds awful... though some people love it...- Supernatural Rhodes is also a but of a mystery to me... serviceable though.. fx are nice on it..- terrible built in rhythms.. if an old preset drum machine from the 80s can have 5 good rhyhtms why can't a piano that has 200 preset beats have 5 decent ones.. I also have the SRX-12 in atm, but it needs editing to match the new keyboard feel I think... Overall, its the best keyboard I have owned... I have a rhodes, Moog Voyager, CX3 and a Promega 3... they haven't even been turned on in the last few weeks... very inspirational instrument... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 ofunk - Good to hear your impressions... when you decided to take the plunge for the RD700GX, had you tried out or considered the other contenders: Yam. S90ES, Kurz. PC3X, or even the lighter-weight Roland RD300GX - or did you not agonize over every little detail (like I do) and just go on gut instinct (and maybe published specs) instead? Just curious what drove you to your final purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Have had the GX for a few weeks now... here are my impressions:+ awesome action and feel... best ever on a keyboard IMHO+ superb Superior Grand and even Ultimate Piano (this is amazing with some editing) sounds+ good selection of other rompler-esque sounds+ great fx+ inspirational+ mp3 playback+ phrase sample playback (really great... assigns the bottom keys to phrase just like Ableton Live)- new Expressive Grand is a mystery.. it sounds awful... though some people love it...- Supernatural Rhodes is also a but of a mystery to me... serviceable though.. fx are nice on it..- terrible built in rhythms.. if an old preset drum machine from the 80s can have 5 good rhyhtms why can't a piano that has 200 preset beats have 5 decent ones..I also have the SRX-12 in atm, but it needs editing to match the new keyboard feel I think...Overall, its the best keyboard I have owned... I have a rhodes, Moog Voyager, CX3 and a Promega 3... they haven't even been turned on in the last few weeks... very inspirational instrument... Tell me more about the EP sounds. Also, have you used the piano editor where you can fully customized the piano tone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orangefunk Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 ofunk - Good to hear your impressions... when you decided to take the plunge for the RD700GX, had you tried out or considered the other contenders: Yam. S90ES, Kurz. PC3X, or even the lighter-weight Roland RD300GX - or did you not agonize over every little detail (like I do) and just go on gut instinct (and maybe published specs) instead? Just curious what drove you to your final purchase. I had pretty much thought about the RD700GX just by the way the instrument looked and functioned... I bought it not being able to demo it as I had one of the first in the UK and the shop ordered it specially... when I first heard the Expressive Grand I thought "yuk..." then the Epianos I thought "erm..." But then I got to hear the Superior and Ultimate pianos and they matched perfectly with gorgeous action... I mean it really is that great... you can actually press a key down slowly and feel the escapement (the mid point where the resistence of the key is at its strongest) just give way... you can also press a key very slowly and no piano sound is heard (which is a great feature)... I knew I didn't want a Yamaha because I've had the P120 and heard the P140 as well as Motif ES and they grate on me... I have a Promega 3 but the Roland tops that... its that great... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orangefunk Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Tell me more about the EP sounds. Also, have you used the piano editor where you can fully customized the piano tone? Piano editor is great.. you can make the Ultimate Piano sound like a CP80 with balls... you got hammer noise, string resonance, EQ per patch, layering, etc... you can really go to town on it... brilliant... I wish I could record an mp3 and show you what it can really sound like but my computer is not hooked up to my music stuff atm. Epiano is disappointing... for sure if the AR-X board is the same as this they won't sell many of em... sure you can edit it but it sounds like a rather bland generic epiano sound no matter (a bit of a cross between the P80 and P120)... theres something not quite right with it.. no percussive edge in the mid to lower range where it matters... but then again I am a rhodes afficiando so I'm probably hard to please... even the SRX board isn't doing it for me yet.. (close but no cigar) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Thanks. I think the 700GX might be worth it for Piano Editor alone. I could always get my EPs from a Motif rack (cheap). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Piano editor is great.. you can make the Ultimate Piano sound like a CP80 with balls... you got hammer noise, string resonance, EQ per patch, layering, etc... you can really go to town on it... brilliant...I wish I could record an mp3 and show you what it can really sound like but my computer is not hooked up to my music stuff atm.Epiano is disappointing... for sure if the AR-X board is the same as this they won't sell many of em... sure you can edit it but it sounds like a rather bland generic epiano sound no matter (a bit of a cross between the P80 and P120)... theres something not quite right with it.. no percussive edge in the mid to lower range where it matters... but then again I am a rhodes afficiando so I'm probably hard to please... even the SRX board isn't doing it for me yet.. (close but no cigar) That's cool - I don't plan on doing a whole lot of editing, though... which is why the Kurz. PC3X has great appeal for me at this point: the thing sounds great from the online demos I've heard, which are stock sounds right out of the box - plus there's a very wide variety of "bread+butter" sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eric Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 I'm a longtime S90 user and also owned an S90ES for a little while. I do love these keyboards, due to many reasons: great action with aftertouch, nice piano sounds, deep synth editing capability, great ROMpler sounds, PLG expansion (really like the analog board) and the awesome Master mode. I'm very acclimated to the S90 as I've been using it for 5+ years and have it highly tweaked for my gigging needs. As such, it is like a comfortable pair of shoes and has become an extension of me in a way. With that said, I am writing a review on the RD-700GX, so I've had one of those in my hot little hands for about 3 weeks now and played a bunch of gigs and rehearsals on it. My comments are similar to O'Funk's and the jury is still out on whether I could embrace it as the end-all be-all replacement for my S90. What really ROCKS on the 700GX is the way the keys feel (Ivory Feel) and the action with Escapement. It is really unique for both of these reasons. It is also quite a bit easier to use than the S90/Motif series. Setting up splits, layers is very intuitive and the edit capabilities are not too buried. I love the piano designer tweaking and can make any of the internal sounds jump out in a mix using that with EQ. It is very fun to tweak up a piano and layer in the lush GX strings or pads. It is one of those things where you can get lost (in a good way), just dialing in sounds and having fun playing them. I don't find the 700GX synth side to be quite as deep as the S90, but it can do quite a bit. For GigMan, I'd say you would be fine with any of the choices you named. I've played them all and they each have strong suits. What is most important to you? Regards,Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miket156 Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Gary: A couple of things to consider. Starting with the price. You can get an S90 ES for about $1850 or $1895 on a straight up deal. Its lighter and slightly smaller than the PC3x, and possibly the Roland (I haven't seen that yet). Both the PC3x and the Roland are a lot more money than the S90ES. The S90ES has a very good piano sound with half pedaling capability. The rest of the sound set is from the Motif ES and are all very good. Eric's comments on the S90ES, as well as the Roland are spot on. Also, Orange Funk has been playing his G for a few weeks now and I think he's being honest in his evaluation. As far as a great piano sound and action, I'd say at this point, Roland has taken a nice step forward. The editing capability of their new board is a big improvement over other systems. I think where Roland falls short is with the other sounds. That has been their fatal flaw for a number of their RD series pianos. The Kurweil looks real interesting, but again, the price on it is a LOT of money, and you don't need the sequencer. As Eric said, any of them would work well, but if it were me, as cheap (and poor) I would get the S90ES. Do you have a store that handles all of them so you can try them out? Mike T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 I'm a longtime S90 user and also owned an S90ES for a little while. I do love these keyboards, due to many reasons: great action with aftertouch, nice piano sounds, deep synth editing capability, great ROMpler sounds, PLG expansion (really like the analog board) and the awesome Master mode. I'm very acclimated to the S90 as I've been using it for 5+ years and have it highly tweaked for my gigging needs. As such, it is like a comfortable pair of shoes and has become an extension of me in a way.With that said, I am writing a review on the RD-700GX, so I've had one of those in my hot little hands for about 3 weeks now and played a bunch of gigs and rehearsals on it. My comments are similar to O'Funk's and the jury is still out on whether I could embrace it as the end-all be-all replacement for my S90. What really ROCKS on the 700GX is the way the keys feel (Ivory Feel) and the action with Escapement. It is really unique for both of these reasons. It is also quite a bit easier to use than the S90/Motif series. Setting up splits, layers is very intuitive and the edit capabilities are not too buried. I love the piano designer tweaking and can make any of the internal sounds jump out in a mix using that with EQ. It is very fun to tweak up a piano and layer in the lush GX strings or pads. It is one of those things where you can get lost (in a good way), just dialing in sounds and having fun playing them. I don't find the 700GX synth side to be quite as deep as the S90, but it can do quite a bit. For GigMan, I'd say you would be fine with any of the choices you named. I've played them all and they each have strong suits. What is most important to you?Regards,Eric Awesome post. As a Motif owner I appreciate the comparison. Couple of questions: 1. What made you keep the S90 over the S90ES? 2. I know the S90/ES is loaded with the S700 piano sample that the Motifs lack. Do you find the S700 is a vast improvement over the PowerGrand, Dark Grand, Jazz Grand piano samples on the Motif soundset? Do you primarily use the S700 sample? 3. (now I sound like a broken record) How would you rate the Rhodes/Wurli samples of the RD700GX against the classic patches in the S90/Motif like: VintageCase and WurliAmped. 4. Would you qualify the accoustic piano samples on the RD700GX as noticably "BETTER" than those on your S90? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orangefunk Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 3. (now I sound like a broken record) How would you rate the Rhodes/Wurli samples of the RD700GX against the classic patches in the S90/Motif like: VintageCase and WurliAmped. I'd say Motif is better... though the switching is more obvious on the Motif of course.. I am experimenting with layering the SRX Rhodes with the Supernatural rhodes and theres some nice hybrid things going on... I think I may have to EQ them a little to get rid of the chorus effect.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 I'd say Motif is better... though the switching is more obvious on the Motif of course..I am experimenting with layering the SRX Rhodes with the Supernatural rhodes and theres some nice hybrid things going on... I think I may have to EQ them a little to get rid of the chorus effect.... Thanks. I think I need to spend some time with a RD700GX (Baltimore GC doesn't have one in) and determine how much I like the pianos. As I said, I can always get the Motif Rack for EPs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eric Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Awesome post. As a Motif owner I appreciate the comparison.Couple of questions:1. What made you keep the S90 over the S90ES?2. I know the S90/ES is loaded with the S700 piano sample that the Motifs lack. Do you find the S700 is a vast improvement over the PowerGrand, Dark Grand, Jazz Grand piano samples on the Motif soundset? Do you primarily use the S700 sample?3. (now I sound like a broken record) How would you rate the Rhodes/Wurli samples of the RD700GX against the classic patches in the S90/Motif like: VintageCase and WurliAmped.4. Would you qualify the accoustic piano samples on the RD700GX as noticably "BETTER" than those on your S90? I bought a "fire sale" S90ES and kept it around for about a month. While it has some better sounds and features, they are very incremental and it was not worth my time to totally reprogram 5 years worth of performances from the S90 to the S90ES. Also, another deal-breaker was the additional 5" of width on the S90ES and inability to fit in my high-dollar flight case. If I had decided to keep it, I would have been not happy with buying another case. So I sold it for a handsome profit. Getting to your other questions... 2. I know the S90/ES is loaded with the S700 piano sample that the Motifs lack. Do you find the S700 is a vast improvement over the PowerGrand, Dark Grand, Jazz Grand piano samples on the Motif soundset? Do you primarily use the S700 sample?I use the S700 in a tweaked format and like it a little better than the stock Motif pianos. It is not a night and day thing, just a little more expressive to me. 3. (now I sound like a broken record) How would you rate the Rhodes/Wurli samples of the RD700GX against the classic patches in the S90/Motif like: VintageCase and WurliAmped.The S90 Rhodes are pretty rocking, like the Vintage '74 and Sweetness sounds. Those are classic, timeless sounds that are great right out of the box. The 700GX has some great sounds as well that get better with some tweaking. It is not too hard to get comparable EPs on the 700GX. I have not dug into the 700GX Wurly very much, but it does have been velocity switching for sure! I have faith that the 700GX EP section has a lot of depth and decent core sounds. I actually have used my Electro's Wurly sound since 2002 and I favor it over any other Wurly sounds I've played in anything other than the real thing. It is that good. 4. Would you qualify the accoustic piano samples on the RD700GX as noticably "BETTER" than those on your S90?Yes, they are much more expressive and connected to that great action. I still like the S90, but the 700GX is a step ahead, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 :blah:profound wisdom:blah: Thanks, Eric! I feel really good about this. I've been thinking about it a lot lately. In all super-seriouness, I appreciate your answering my questions. I'm mostly concerned about the pianos. I think the 700GX will probably be a good fit for me. If I'm not pleased by the stock or SRX/ARX EP offerings, I'll pick up a rack unit. I feel really good about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinHines Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 ...but Kurzweil doesn't seem to show the amount of ROM anywhere in their PC3X specs Kurzweil hasn't (and probably won't) publish the Waveform ROM numbers and the reason is obvious -- their numbers are lower than the competition. It's not like Kurzweil can't release some type of "linear equivalent ROM" number like the other companies. Kurzweil wants to focus the customer on how the keyboard actually sounds, rather than get caught up in a numbers game. It's not a bad strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Gary: A couple of things to consider. Starting with the price. You can get an S90 ES for about $1850 or $1895 on a straight up deal. Its lighter and slightly smaller than the PC3x, and possibly the Roland (I haven't seen that yet). Both the PC3x and the Roland are a lot more money than the S90ES. The S90ES has a very good piano sound with half pedaling capability. The rest of the sound set is from the Motif ES and are all very good. Eric's comments on the S90ES, as well as the Roland are spot on. Also, Orange Funk has been playing his G for a few weeks now and I think he's being honest in his evaluation. As far as a great piano sound and action, I'd say at this point, Roland has taken a nice step forward. The editing capability of their new board is a big improvement over other systems. I think where Roland falls short is with the other sounds. That has been their fatal flaw for a number of their RD series pianos. The Kurweil looks real interesting, but again, the price on it is a LOT of money, and you don't need the sequencer. As Eric said, any of them would work well, but if it were me, as cheap (and poor) I would get the S90ES. Do you have a store that handles all of them so you can try them out? Mike T. Good post, Mike - but as I posted previously, I'm not going to go for the lowest-priced keyboard (Yam. S90ES at this point) just because it's lowest-priced... ie, I'll pay more for a different unit (RD700GX or PC3X) if it seems like a better fit for me. For example, I love the sound of Kurzweil strings - and I think I will probably deem them far superior than the Yammie or Roland strings, but you never know... However, if I can get a Yam. S90ES for under $1,900 the question becomes much more of a reality - ie, how much am I willing to spend once I hear all 3 and deem them all pretty good, very very close in quality and features. If I didn't already have a big summer vacation planned I'd probably not even think twice about a >3K price point but even as I'm writing this I'm thinking of my wife's reaction to such a monster purchase & thinking that maybe I should take advantage of the $100 rebate Yam. has going now on the S90ES... Another thing that keeps nagging at me is that there seems to be a huge user base of S90/S90ES users, which is to my advantage if I got one and where trying to learn the damn thing. I wouldn't have the same resources w/the Kurz. PC3X or the Roland RD700GX. Eric, you dog - how is it that you come to have an RD700GX to review? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eric Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 Eric, you dog - how is it that you come to have an RD700GX to review? I've been doing freelance review for KB Mag the past year or two. Most have been smaller items like FX pedals and stands, so I was pleased when the 700GX landed on my doorstep. Speaking of string sounds, there are some new ones in the GX that are very compelling and lush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Todzilla Posted May 16, 2008 Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 These were the only two criteria I used a year ago to make this same decision. I chose the RD300SX and am very pleased I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted May 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 16, 2008 good criteria, indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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