Obama healthcare... whats the fuss?

[Jules-RM]

Government has a history of everything it touches turning to {censored}, I don't have any faith in them to do the right thing ever, I guarantee there was some back room, under the table money exchanging hands even in this healthcare fiasco. Government is of the dollar, by the dollar, and for the dollar. People are not part of the equation, and haven't been for over a century.

+1. It's all about FUNDING. Once you realize how gov't really works, then you start getting REALLY scared.

I'm worried they are going to look at end of life care and say "Well, 90% of health care expense occurs in the last year of life, if you are dying anyway just die. Stop being so greedy you dying person!".

"Gee Jules, you've had Cancer twice and you're only 36. You dad died of cancer when he was 76. So we've got at least 40 years of expense because you keep getting cancer. And BTW you didn't vote the way you should in the last election either. Here's a nice little pill. Take it and everything will be better."

Ok, now I'm scaring myself.

[ben_allison]

i think it is shameful for the government to educate people to expect free stuff from money earned by others.

 

 

Stop using the roads, stop hiding behind the protection of the US military, and don't even think about checking out Charlotte's Web from the local library.

[Kid_A]

Zoidberg, HOMEOWNER!

[Jules-RM]

Will all the chicks look like this in the future? At least they don't get old and fat.

 

[ben_allison]

 

I'm worried they are going to look at end of life care and say "Well, 90% of health care expense occurs in the last year of life, if you are dying anyway just die. Stop being so greedy you dying person!". "Gee Jules, you've had Cancer twice and you're only 36. You dad died of cancer when he was 76. So we've got at least 40 years of expense because you keep getting cancer. And BTW you didn't vote the way you should in the last election either. Here's a nice little pill. Take it and everything will be better.":

 

 

Dude, seriously? If anything, that sounds like a BUSINESS decision. As in, bigger bottom line for a capitalist system.

 

In a roundabout way, that's already happening in your country, because the corporations are fighting to deprive citizens care, and taking them to court to try and prove they're not actually sick.

 

For real, what countries with socialized health care are euthanizing patients against their will?

 

Just promise me you'll stop reading 1984, kthankbi.

[lp_junkie]

That division is so clean it's fairy tale, and I'm not a believer that markets regulate themselves for the good of the country. That's another fairy tale. Funny how we pretty much agree on Intellectual Property Rights, but not on this issue. I'm pretty fiscally conservative, but if we let the Republicans have their way with healthcare, it would have been put on the backburner for more war.

 

 

I don't like any politicians, I think they are all bottom feeding scum, only doing what serves their personal interests and pocketbooks.

 

I think there is a way to provide universal healthcare, but the government is not known for being fiscally responsible. I am disillusioned with the prospect of any good ever coming out of Washington, D.C. you can't legislate equality and civility.

 

The only real difference between Republicans and Democrats is this- Republicans spend on wars and messing up other countries, Democrats spend on failed social programs and messing up this country. Either way doesn't work for everyday Joe, who gets screwed no matter who is in power.

[Jules-RM]

Sorry, this is a better picture. That one makes her look a little fat.

 

[cryptosonic]

As long as we keep debating the relative merits and dangers of what most agree is a flawed law we are distracted from the real issue: We need comprehensive and separate reforms for both the insurance industry and the medical industry.

[SlowStick]

Stop using the roads, stop hiding behind the protection of the US military, and don't even think about checking out Charlotte's Web from the local library.

 

 

your logic is like this in my mind. since the government provides roads, has a military, and a library it should also buy my food, change my baby's diaper, close my garage door when i forget too, provide me my car, give me a job, etc etc etc. i think the Constitution spells out the purpose for taxes.

[ben_allison]

I don't like any politicians, I think they are all bottom feeding scum, only doing what serves their personal interests.

 

 

Every last one of them.

 

I don't like electricians either. Greedy buggers. Or kindergarden teachers... don't even get me started on them.

 

Groundless, emotionally based generalities grind intelligent conversations to halt.

[Jules-RM]

Just promise me you'll stop reading 1984, kthankbi.

 

 

I've read it twice so far.

 

It's all about LOGAN'S RUN now.

[ben_allison]

 

your logic is like this in my mind. since the government provides roads, has a military, and a library it should also buy my food, change my baby's diaper, close my garage door when i forget too, provide me my car, give me a job, etc etc etc. i think the Constitution spells out the purpose for taxes.

 

 

No. You said you thought it was wrong to give people things for free. Namely, healthcare paid for with taxes.

 

My point is that you are

[lp_junkie]

Every last one of them. I don't like electricians either. Greedy buggers. Or kindergarden teachers... don't even get me started on them. Groundless, emotionally based generalities grind intelligent conversations to halt.

 

 

I will say that some go to Washington with good intentions, but the culture of corruption that pervades politics either beats them into submission or get's them defeated in the next election.

 

Politics should not be a career, it should be a low paid public servant position, a Congressmen should not get paid more than the infantryman who actually risks his life to meet the goals set forth by our government and "secure the blessing of liberty for the people". The tail of the dragon should never make more than the teeth.

 

For politicians you should serve your term and constituents and then pass the torch, not create a family dynasty.

[ben_allison]

I will say that some go to Washington with good intentions, but the culture of corruption that pervades politics either beats them into submission or get's them defeated in the next election. Politics should not be a career, it should be a low paid public servant position, a Congressmen should not get paid more than the infantryman who actually risks his life to meet the goals set forth by our government and "secure the blessing of liberty for the people". The tail of the dragon should never make more than the teeth. For politicians you should serve your term and constituents and then pass the torch, not create a family dynasty.

 

 

This is the best thing you've said all thread. I think that would be an interesting experiment.

[SlowStick]

No. You said you thought it was wrong to give people things for free. Namely, healthcare paid for with taxes. My point is that you are

[ben_allison]

 

it is wrong. i was trying to point out the idea that these entitlements must stop somewhere.

 

 

You're saying healthcare, where all contribute so no one looses out, is WRONG?

 

Dude, go back and read Acts 2. Even the model of the church is a socialist one. Everyone helps, so people are taken care of.

 

You feel that these "entitlements" INCLUDE library books and fixing potholes, but NOT making sure an impoverished baby with a heart murmur gets looked after?

 

Where is Christ in that, my friend?

 

And I suppose it is mere coincidence that the USA's non-social healthcare is ranked 37th, while every country above it has a socialized program?

 

Must be coincidence.

[AnderMocs]

I was in the Guard and went to New Orleans, I agree if you build where it floods or hurricanes hit then sucks for you and it's your problem. Same thing with business, you can't run it responsibly and go bankrupt, too bad not a government problem. The bailouts were the stupidest thing our government has done, AIG will never repay the money. GM took the money and still filed for bankruptcy, now it's pretty much Government owned.

 

 

New Orleans was the result of poor infrastructure failing. Agreed, it was probably a bad idea to build a city there, but you can't just expect a city to pick up and move. It's been there since the 1700s. And the US response to Hurricane Katrina was ridiculously {censored}ed up.

 

I agree that the GM bailout was absolutely {censored}ing ridiculous and pissed me off far more than the bank bailout. GM built dog {censored} cars that no one wanted and they went bankrupt. That is how free enterprise works. They jumped on the bailout bandwagon and we should be ashamed that our government went along with it.

[lp_junkie]

Ben, not everyone is a Christian, we also fought a war to make sure Church and State were separate among other issues.

Christ is nowhere in any of my dealings or thoughts, the thought of a society where some work hard and have a good life but have to subsidize those that are lazy and do not contribute to society is repulsive. I am not talking about working class people that are struggling, I am talking about the welfare class who's only goal is to get more free stuff from the government.

Some people are out to take advantage of any situation, and the less they have to do to profit the better they have it.

In order to benefit you should contribute.

[MadMax808]

 

your logic is like this in my mind. since the government provides roads, has a military, and a library it should also buy my food, change my baby's diaper, close my garage door when i forget too, provide me my car, give me a job, etc etc etc. i think the Constitution spells out the purpose for taxes.

 

 

I don't understand how you got from roads, military, and the library to food, diapers, and garage doors...

 

The government should be providing [or, at least, help provide] services for you [roadwork, security, education respectively] rather than goods [food, diapers, cars], in my opinion.

[ben_allison]

Ben, not everyone is a Christian, we also fought a war to make sure Church and State were separate among other issues.

 

 

The post wasn't addressed to you. It was directed toward a Christian. I'm exploiting a massive fissure in his world view.

[lp_junkie]

Cool, I see what you are saying. And it's a good argument.

[ben_allison]

Cool, I see what you are saying. And it's a good argument.

Haha. Yeah. Threads like this get confusing fast. Who said what? Was that directed at me? Are you pissed or just being playfully sarcastic... etc.

So far so good! Give it 10 pages though!

[Jules-RM]

Anderer - it's called a VAT.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax#United_States

 

"House Speaker Nancy Pelosi stated in October 2009 that a new, national VAT was "on the table" to help the federal government garner needed revenues."

 

It's unconstitutional to require individuals to buy health insurance, but they still did it.

[MadMax808]

Anderer - it's called a VAT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax#United_States "House Speaker Nancy Pelosi stated in October 2009 that a new, national VAT was "on the table" to help the federal government garner needed revenues." It's unconstitutional to require individuals to buy health insurance, but they still did it.

Don't many countries use a VAT system? I assume that seems to be working alright.

[AnderMocs]

Anderer - it's called a VAT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_added_tax#United_States "House Speaker Nancy Pelosi stated in October 2009 that a new, national VAT was "on the table" to help the federal government garner needed revenues."

 

 

wtf, is wikipedia down for everyone else? I can get to the main page, but articles don't work.

 

I found something about it, from what I understand, it seems like shady way to get around the constitution. like most other legislation these days. really does suck though.