Obama healthcare... whats the fuss?

[arcarsenal72]

Probably true in many cases... but that isn't the whole story either. I'm far from rich, and while I don't mind paying a bit extra to try to help those in need, I can hardly afford to be forced to buy something regardless of where the costs go. If I had to pay double in order to pay for the uninsured, that would be a crushing obligation for me. And here's another aspect of it from my personal POV: I really don't trust the government to do anything affordably and efficiently. These are the same clowns - from BOTH parties - who have spent all the Social Security money over the years, who have mucked up Medicaid and who run those wonderful VA hospitals where vets are treated in such an outstanding way... and we're going to hand the keys to our health care over to them, let them create a gigantic new series of bureaucracies, and expect for the quality of care to stay the same or increase, while costs decrease or at least rise at a substantially reduced rate? Let's just say I'm extremely skeptical. However, just because I feel that way doesn't mean I'm "rich and don't want to help the poor people of the country". Again, IMO, that's an over-simplification and mis-characterization of why some (not all) people are not in favor of this law.

 

 

I definitely see your point, I just wanted to keep things as simple as possible for what is a very complicated issue. There is a whole world of opinions on why it shouldn't be, but from the majority of people I have heard discussing the topic, it boils down to that. That's fine for those who hold that POV, but I believe the we have an obligation to create a society that will provide a more even distribution of basic needs.

 

What I generally see it boiling down to is people don't like to be taxed. Of course no one wants the money they earned taken away, but at the same time taxes pay for a lot of things that benefit everyone rich and poor. For example, my dad vehemently opposes taxation, but he had heart surgery last year. The taxes he so strongly opposed go to things like medical research that saved his life. I'm just slightly frustrated by our society's inability to consider deeper layers to an issue just because it is not presented to us with blinking lights and a celebrity endorsement.

 

/rant

[AnderMocs]

Dude, just {censored}ing move up here. You can get to PA from Toronto in like, 8 hours.

it is something I really have thought about possibly doing when I'm an actual adult (i'm 18). I love toronto, most beautiful and friendly city i've ever visited. things like the ridiculous visas to tour in the states turns me off. They are getting more and more difficult to get as I understand it.

I'd want duel citizenship, not sure how hard that is to score in Canada. apparently it's a bitch coming into the states.

[ben_allison]

I didn't mean to imply that they were. Of course there's people that have hit on hard times and I don't mind helping as long as there working towards fixing the situation. It's people that take advantage of the situation and reap all the benefits without contributing that bother me.

 

 

100%. I think the difficulty is that when you try to penalize the abusers, you overlook the truly needy.

 

I think erring on the side of being too gracious, and having a few bad apples slip through, is worth it if it means extending basic provisions to, by and large, good people.

[ben_allison]

it is something I really have thought about possibly doing when I'm an actual adult (i'm 18). I love toronto, most beautiful and friendly city i've ever visited. things like the ridiculous visas to tour in the states turns me off. They are getting more and more difficult to get as I understand it. I'd want duel citizenship, not sure how hard that is to score in Canada. apparently it's a bitch coming into the states.

 

 

Marry a Canadian. That's what my wife did!

[Phil O'Keefe]

The thing i don't understand is, you are clearly a christian and America is on the whole a much more religious nation than my own. So why would you not want to help those less fortunate than yourself? Surely that is a big part of being a christian? one of the most important lessons to learn from the whole idea of christianity and one everyone can get behind, religious or not. I find it bizzare as an atheist looking over these debates, both here and in the Political forum that there is a high proportion of christians who oppose a system that at its heart is there to help those who need it most.

 

 

Do you know what country has given the most in terms of aid, to help Haiti after the earthquake?

 

We do tend to be very giving as a people, as a country... we just tend to do it / prefer to do it willingly, and without being mandated to do it. But when there is a need, Americans do tend to give, and give generously. And that tends to be applicable to Americans in general, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

[AnderMocs]

Marry a Canadian. That's what my wife did!

not a bad way to go. maybe i'll just marry one for the health care. Little road trip every time I need something done. probably still cheaper than the insurance premium. and if {censored} hits the fan, just move up there.

[Fender&EHX4ever]

100%. I think the difficulty is that when you try to penalize the abusers, you overlook the truly needy. I think erring on the side of being too gracious, and having a few bad apples slip through, is worth it if it means extending basic provisions to, by and large, good people.

 

 

Let's face it, the Republicans have never sought to be gracious with tax money, regardless of any restrictions set on freeloaders. The Republican tendency has always been to "err on the side of being too gracious" with the wealthiest in this country, and allowing them to run amok with corruption. Between the 2 choices, I'll take erring for the poor.

[lp_junkie]

Well done. But don't mistake your good fortune for some universal truth about getting out what you put in. Many good people, with strong work ethic, are dying in hospital hallways. Or worse, at home, without basic treatment or care. What is American about that?

 

 

I understand that I was extremely lucky in that I made it, I am not for denying care I am just not happy with the bill, it doesn't do enough in some areas and oversteps the governments bounds in others.

 

By no means do I think people should suffer and die, I do not support either political party, neither represent the people and will do my part financially to make sure a lot of both sides get fired in November.

[Fender&EHX4ever]

 

Do you know what country has given the most in terms of aid, to help Haiti after the earthquake? We do tend to be very giving as a people, as a country... we just tend to do it / prefer to do it willingly, and without being mandated to do it. But when there is a need, Americans do tend to give, and give generously. And that tends to be applicable to Americans in general, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

 

 

Where was Wall Street when thousands lost their homes across the country? Where are the big banks now who are holding onto every last cent when people want to buy up their properties?

 

I'm not saying there aren't generous Americans who give of their own free will; but there are just as many who don't give a damn.

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

100%. I think the difficulty is that when you try to penalize the abusers, you overlook the truly needy. I think erring on the side of being too gracious, and having a few bad apples slip through, is worth it if it means extending basic provisions to, by and large, good people.

 

 

Sometimes they do throw the baby out with the bathwater, and I would also rather see the system err on the side of helping people at the risk of a few bad apples slipping through the cracks... but Medicaid abuse and fraud is a HUGE problem in this country, and it tends to be crooked doctors and lawyers who profit from it as much as, if not more so than individuals... and yet this current bill doesn't really sufficiently address that part of the problem IMO.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Where was Wall Street when thousands lost their homes across the country? Where are the big banks now who are holding onto every last cent when people want to buy up their properties? I'm not saying there aren't generous Americans who give of their own free will; but there are just as many who don't give a damn.

Let's not confuse corporations with individuals. But even still, some corporations give quite a bit too... and yes, you're right - some others "don't give a damn". But in a truly free society, in a free market economy, those things should be published (free press) and then the citizens can reward or penalize those companies by deciding whether or not they want to do business with them.

Believe me, I was definitely not happy about bailing out Wall Street and the banks and then having them turn around and screw over homeowners and shareholders. But the banks and the politicians and Big Business are oftentimes beholden more to each other than they are to their customers and constituents.

Welcome to the world. There's not a lot the little folks like you or me can really do - regardless of who we vote into office, they are all playing the same political games.

[lp_junkie]

Wall Street is not America, more than half the investors are foreigners, who are in it for the money and power alone. The banking industry went nuts after they were deregulated making mortgage loans to unqualified individuals.

The Federal Government has it's place, but it needs to stay in it's place, why bother having State governments at all when the Big Nanny in Washington can take care of all, you can save tax dollars by getting rid of state governments then, since they obviously don't know how to take care of their own residents.

I am for people being left alone to do their own thing without interference of government. Federal Government should defend our borders, deal with international affairs, circulate currency, collect and distribute tax revenues- everything else should be left to the States.

[Marmoset King]

Do you know what country has given the most in terms of aid, to help Haiti after the earthquake? We do tend to be very giving as a people, as a country... we just tend to do it / prefer to do it willingly, and without being mandated to do it. But when there is a need, Americans do tend to give, and give generously. And that tends to be applicable to Americans in general, regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

 

 

Yes i do know which country gave the most aid to Haiti, the richest nation on Earth.

It's hardly surprising being both a close neighbour and extremely wealthy (as a nation) by comparison. Many countries gave, that the richest gave the most is hardly surprising .... that is no way a critiscism either, no one made the American public help, it was done out of compassion and should be applauded.

But it still doesn't explain why many overtly christian posters like the one i replied to earlier object so heavily to a system that is at least trying to help those less fortunate.

The NHS here works, it's not perfect, not by a long shot (no one would claim it is) and there are those that abuse the system that you'd rather not be paying for, but on the whole i'm glad that we have it. We all pay and we all benefit.

[lp_junkie]

I am not a Christian, I am a Pagan one of the basic tenets is harm none, it doesn't mean help all either.

Americans are citizens not subjects, we like our personal freedom of choice, what we don't need is our government interfering with our daily lives when there are other issues for them to deal with, like getting the deficit controlled instead of spending money they don't have.

There were other ways to get healthcare under control that did not include spending tax money.

[reverberlayed]

I think 95% of the problems in this country is due to greed. Be it money or power, it's all about greed. Sure, our country was founded on the principles that you have the ability to make as much money as you can if you put in the work and innovation. That philosophy just doesn't apply like it used to. Hard work should amount to some type of success but it doesn't always. Not everyone in this country has an equal opportunity. Sure, some people make the best of their situation and overcome what they were born in to but it's just not possible for everyone.

 

Look at Walmart, until they were put under a lot of heat the past few years, they had unfair hiring practices. Their Board of Directors was made up of all well-off white men. I'm not saying that some of those men didn't deserve to be there, but they discriminated against minorities and women. So if you aspired to be the CEO of Walmart and you were a black man you couldn't until recently. There are many ethical and racial issues that need to be dealt with in this country and until that's realized we will never see a capitalist utopia.

[Stratman Tigers]

Healthcare should be like education and police. Services funded by taxes available to everyone.

 

For the record, I'd like to state I was for complete universal healthcare.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Wall Street is not America, more than half the investors are foreigners, who are in it for the money and power alone. The banking industry went nuts after they were deregulated making mortgage loans to unqualified individuals.

 

Good point - foreign investors are a part of Wall Street too. And as far as the banking industry, weren't some of those riskier loans mandated by changes in Federal law (probably well intentioned) that were meant to help people of lower incomes to get loans / purchase homes? That didn't work out too well for those people either - although of course the banks were all "too big to fail" and got bailouts, no one bailed out the borrowers / homeowners.

[Jules-RM]

About hosing the rich -

 

When the economy takes a downturn the rich stop paying as much in taxes, because most of them are losing money if they have any invested in the stock market/or real estate. We have an INCOME tax, if the rich are losing money that's not income. We definitely know this for a fact in CA.

 

This leaves a big gaping hole in the budget. The current US deficit is SO LARGE that we can not continue carrying it - and it's so large gov't is soaking up all the loans from banks, stifling the economy and making the recession worse.

 

That leaves one thing: EVERYONE on this board will be paying higher taxes.

 

I've got 3 words for the naysayers:

 

NATIONAL SALES TAX. It's coming. You thought your state tax is bad. Buying across state lines wont work with this one.

 

I dare you to say "Nay". Go on, it'll be fun.

[Armitage]

... we like our personal freedom of choice, what we don't need is our government interfering with our daily lives ..

 

 

Yet when things go wrong, they demand to know why the government didn't take control before the crap hit the fan...

 

"I can build a house anywhere I want!"

"It's below sea level on a flood plane."

"Screw you.. hey, a flood, you're gonna help me or I'll sue. Why isn't the government spending more to help me?"

 

"I want to invest or run my company as I see fit."

"That's unsafe and unfair to investors who need some security"

"Screw you... hey, that was a bad idea, I need a government bail out from my bad ideas and investments! Why isn't the government spending more to help me?"

[ben_allison]

 

I am not a Christian, I am a Pagan one of the basic tenets is harm none, it doesn't mean help all either. Americans are citizens not subjects, we like our personal freedom of choice, what we don't need is our government interfering with our daily lives when there are other issues for them to deal with, like getting the deficit controlled instead of spending money they don't have. There were other ways to get healthcare under control that did not include spending tax money.

 

 

Well if a system similar to what the USA espouses was best (every man for himself, private enterprise), surely it wouldn't rank 37th in world.

[Armitage]

... of course the banks were all "too big to fail" and got bailouts, no one bailed out the borrowers / homeowners.

 

 

One home owner, is one homeowner.

 

One bank, is 100,000 homeowners...

[lp_junkie]

That's the problem, if government never got into the business of saving everyone it would not be an issue.

I was in the Guard and went to New Orleans, I agree if you build where it floods or hurricanes hit then sucks for you and it's your problem.

Same thing with business, you can't run it responsibly and go bankrupt, too bad not a government problem. The bailouts were the stupidest thing our government has done, AIG will never repay the money. GM took the money and still filed for bankruptcy, now it's pretty much Government owned.

Government has a history of everything it touches turning to {censored}, I don't have any faith in them to do the right thing ever, I guarantee there was some back room, under the table money exchanging hands even in this healthcare fiasco.

Government is of the dollar, by the dollar, and for the dollar. People are not part of the equation, and haven't been for over a century.

[SlowStick]

The thing i don't understand is, you are clearly a christian and America is on the whole a much more religious nation than my own. So why would you not want to help those less fortunate than yourself? Surely that is a big part of being a christian? one of the most important lessons to learn from the whole idea of christianity and one everyone can get behind, religious or not. I find it bizzare as an atheist looking over these debates, both here and in the Political forum that there is a high proportion of christians who oppose a system that at its heart is there to help those who need it most.

 

 

thank you for this post. as i say i do give to charities. it is my choice to do so. My Church donates and supports many people in need. we do so with money freely donated for the good. Many churches do so and have for hundreds of years.

 

i think it is shameful for the government to educate people to expect free stuff from money earned by others. we do believe we should submit to government however when our tax money is given to undermine the good is where we have trouble. why should we encourage abortion? making it free does so. i know people who have adopted those "problems" and they are wonderful kids. so you say free health-care helps those who need it most you include many things that we should have the choice to support or not support.

[frankiej]

Thanks for the laughs everyone.

[Fender&EHX4ever]

 

Federal Government should defend our borders, deal with international affairs, circulate currency, collect and distribute tax revenues- everything else should be left to the States.

 

 

That division is so clean it's fairy tale, and I'm not a believer that markets regulate themselves for the good of the country. That's another fairy tale.

 

Funny how we pretty much agree on Intellectual Property Rights, but not on this issue. I'm pretty fiscally conservative, but if we let the Republicans have their way with healthcare, it would have been put on the backburner for more war.