Obama healthcare... whats the fuss?

[Phil O'Keefe]

and my personal opinion on the taxation of the rich: they are the most able to pay it. If you make 500,000 dollars a year. and that gets kicked down to 400,000 through taxes, you still have plenty to live a very comfortable life. If you make $50,000 a year, and that gets kicked to down 35-40k, that's gonna hurt far more.

 

If you make $500K and it gets lowered to $400K, you're only paying 20% in taxes. But you're paying $100K in taxes...

 

If you make $50K and it gets lowered to $40K after taxes, you're still paying - you guessed it - 20%. But you're only paying $10K in taxes.

 

Who's paying a larger chunk? Based on percentages, they're paying the exact same. Based on dollars overall, the guy making $500K gross is paying more. He makes ten times as much (in dollars) and pays ten times more (in dollars) than the guy who makes $50K. But at least in theory, under the current system, the guy making $500K gross isn't in the 20% tax bracket... he's charged at a higher rate, a larger percentage, than the guy who is making $50K.

 

I would have it set up so the guy making $50K wouldn't even be taxed at all on his initial $30-40K per year, and only on whatever he made over that "baseline living" amount or whatever you wanted to call it. After that, I'm fine with charging everyone that same 20% on whatever they make. The guy making $500K a year will still be contributing far more financially to the Federal coffers than a guy making even $100K would. The guy making $50K would only be paying taxes on $10K of that, so at 20%, he'd pay $2K.

 

I don't see how that's at all unfair, but again, YMMV.

[Phil O'Keefe]

some people like me have worked hard to experience success. i started with nothing and i did not wait for anyone to pay my way. why should my 70 hour work weeks over the span of 30 years pay for those who cry for the mother government to take care of their needs. i think the progressives are winers who still feel the need to be suckled with mother's milk pouring out of the wallets of folks who don't sit on the sofa watching msnbc. the big picture is that the current folks in power want just that power. they want to "pass around the wealth", take from the hard workers and give to themselves then to the lazy hoping to garner their vote. sure i know some folks have limitations and i donate to many fine charities to help those who truly need. i also find it evil to force people to pay for the death of babies. some say slavery is America's biggest sin but i say it is abortions. many people do not want to be responsible for their own actions anymore. SS

Again, watch it with the name calling please, or I WILL move this thread to the political forum where that sort of thing is de rigueur. I won't tolerate incivility and name calling - from EITHER side - and let the thread stay open here.

[devonteran]

If you make $500K and it gets lowered to $400K, you're only paying 20% in taxes. But you're paying $100K in taxes... If you make $50K and it gets lowered to $40K after taxes, you're still paying - you guessed it - 20%. But you're only paying $10K in taxes. Who's paying a larger chunk? Based on percentages, they're paying the exact same. Based on dollars overall, the guy making $500K gross is paying more. He makes ten times as much (in dollars) and pays ten times more (in dollars) than the guy who makes $50K. But at least in theory, under the current system, the guy making $500K gross isn't in the 20% tax bracket... he's charged at a higher rate, a larger percentage, than the guy who is making $50K. I would have it set up so the guy making $50K wouldn't even be taxed at all on his initial $30-40K per year, and only on whatever he made over that "baseline living" amount or whatever you wanted to call it. After that, I'm fine with charging everyone that same 20% on whatever they make. The guy making $500K a year will still be contributing far more financially to the Federal coffers than a guy making even $100K would. The guy making $50K would only be paying taxes on $10K of that, so at 20%, he'd pay $2K. I don't see how that's at all unfair, but again, YMMV.

Phil for president!!!!!

[ben_allison]

In Canada, there's a minimum amount, but it's like only $8,000. It really should be the most basic cost of living... $25,000 maybe? But... everyone still needs to do their part... and it seems a shame to "punish" those who have the stones to go out and earn more... though, equally, they're more indebted to the country that let them earn so much.

 

It's an interesting problem.

 

I think property and sales taxes should be more responsible for the lion share of revenue, as opposed to income tax. I mean, what did we do before income tax!

[AMZ-FX]

The Top 5% of wage earners made 37.44% of the income but paid 60.63% of the taxes.

In 2008, 36.3% of tax filers paid nothing at all.

[AnderMocs]

If you make $500K and it gets lowered to $400K, you're only paying 20% in taxes. But you're paying $100K in taxes... If you make $50K and it gets lowered to $40K after taxes, you're still paying - you guessed it - 20%. But you're only paying $10K in taxes. Who's paying a larger chunk? Based on percentages, they're paying the exact same. Based on dollars overall, the guy making $500K gross is paying more. He makes ten times as much (in dollars) and pays ten times more (in dollars) than the guy who makes $50K. But at least in theory, under the current system, the guy making $500K gross isn't in the 20% tax bracket... he's charged at a higher rate, a larger percentage, than the guy who is making $50K. I would have it set up so the guy making $50K wouldn't even be taxed at all on his initial $30-40K per year, and only on whatever he made over that "baseline living" amount or whatever you wanted to call it. After that, I'm fine with charging everyone that same 20% on whatever they make. The guy making $500K a year will still be contributing far more financially to the Federal coffers than a guy making even $100K would. The guy making $50K would only be paying taxes on $10K of that, so at 20%, he'd pay $2K. I don't see how that's at all unfair, but again, YMMV.

I concede the high ground to you sir.

As far as higher sales tax, from what I understood of my high school civics class (we did some economics) sales tax are bad for the poor, since it drives up the cost of every day items. doesn't cripple the rich, but {censored}s those less well off. If it was applied to non-essentials only it would be ok. it would certainly piss off a lot people though.

and I'm pretty sure the national government is constitutionally forbidden from imposing a sales tax. the only commerce they have any control over is interstate commerce.

[lp_junkie]

The fuss is that the rich don't want to pay taxes so the lower class can have insurance. Nothing new.

 

 

That's funny, I got my money through working hard for 25 years, saving, and investing wisely. If someone else squandered the opportunity to make the right decisions in life that's not my problem. Do I think they should suffer, no but they aren't entitled to something that costs anyone else a dime.

 

You have the freedom to pursue life, liberty, and happiness but it never says you will attain them or are guaranteed them.

 

The reform should have targeted the healthcare and insurance industries, putting regs on pricing, access to care, and made healthcare a non profit industry and left the people out of it. Personal decision and responsibility of whether you get insurance or not, none of the governments business.

 

Taxes and fines on people that are already struggling is insane.

 

The bill doesn't affect me personally in any way.

[AnderMocs]

 

That's funny, I got my money through working hard for 25 years, saving, and investing wisely. If someone else squandered the opportunity to make the right decisions in life that's not my problem. Do I think they should suffer, no but they aren't entitled to something that costs anyone else a dime. You have the freedom to pursue life, liberty, and happiness but it never says you will attain them or are guaranteed them. The reform should have targeted the healthcare industry solely, putting regs on pricing, access to care, and made healthcare a non profit industry and left the people out of it. Taxes and fines on people that are already struggling is insane. The bill doesn't affect me personally in any way, but I intend to use some money to send some of them packing in November.

 

 

I really find the I worked hard argument offensive. My immediate family is quite well off. But my moms side of the family is almost all working class and on my fathers side his parents on up were all poor immigrants from Ireland/Germany. I come from a line of union welders and truck drivers. They work/worked their balls off for their entire life to provide for their families. Anyone who says they didn't work as hard as some millionaire needs a swift kick in the nuts and a slap across the face. If it wasn't for them you wouldn't get half the {censored} you buy, because they either trucked it across the country or built the train car that it was carried on.

 

Not everyone can be a millionaire. it is economically impossible. their is not that much money floating around, and if everyone was a millionaire a jug of milk would cost $10.

[Marmoset King]

some people like me have worked hard to experience success. i started with nothing and i did not wait for anyone to pay my way. why should my 70 hour work weeks over the span of 30 years pay for those who cry for the mother government to take care of their needs. i think the progressives are winers who still feel the need to be suckled with mother's milk pouring out of the wallets of folks who don't sit on the sofa watching msnbc. the big picture is that the current folks in power want just that power. they want to "pass around the wealth", take from the hard workers and give to themselves then to the lazy hoping to garner their vote. sure i know some folks have limitations and i donate to many fine charities to help those who truly need. i also find it evil to force people to pay for the death of babies. some say slavery is America's biggest sin but i say it is abortions. many people do not want to be responsible for their own actions anymore. SS

 

 

The thing i don't understand is, you are clearly a christian and America is on the whole a much more religious nation than my own. So why would you not want to help those less fortunate than yourself? Surely that is a big part of being a christian? one of the most important lessons to learn from the whole idea of christianity and one everyone can get behind, religious or not.

 

I find it bizzare as an atheist looking over these debates, both here and in the Political forum that there is a high proportion of christians who oppose a system that at its heart is there to help those who need it most.

[AnderMocs]

The thing i don't understand is, you are clearly a christian and America is on the whole a much more religious nation than my own. So why would you not want to help those less fortunate than yourself? Surely that is a big part of being a christian? one of the most important lessons to learn from the whole idea of christianity and one everyone can get behind, religious or not. I find it bizzare as an atheist looking over these debates, both here and in the Political forum that there is a high proportion of christians who oppose a system that at its heart is there to help those who need it most.

[ben_allison]

That's funny, I got my money through working hard for 25 years, saving, and investing wisely. If someone else squandered the opportunity to make the right decisions in life that's not my problem. Do I think they should suffer, no but they aren't entitled to something that costs anyone else a dime.

 

 

This is ludicrous. Your argument fails for two reasons:

 

1) It assumes hard work equals wealth, and that being wealthy is simply a choice one has to make, and the inability to earn wealth should disqualify one from the basic services (like health care).

 

2) It ignores that you already pay taxes, from which, money is used to benefit others. From road rebuilding, to paying for court mandated rehab, to welfare.

 

Your point is logically inconsistent.

[AnderMocs]

god damn it, I need to move to Canada or the UK. you people speak my {censored}ing language.

[lp_junkie]

I really find the I worked hard argument offensive. My immediate family is quite well off. But my moms side of the family is almost all working class. I come from a line of union welders and truck drivers. They work/worked their balls off for their entire life to provide for their families. Anyone who says they didn't work as hard as some millionaire needs a swift kick in the nuts and a slap across the face. If it wasn't for them you wouldn't get half the {censored} you buy, because they either trucked it across the country or built the train car that it was carried on. Not everyone can be a millionaire. it is economically impossible. their is not that much money floating around, and if everyone was a millionaire a jug of milk would cost $10.

 

 

When I moved out of my parents house 25 years ago I had a guitar, a pregnant girlfriend and $45 in cash that was it. Everything I have is from busting my ass, I did every {censored} job you can imagine until I was in a position to make things happen for my family.

Statistically I should have failed and been poor my entire life, but I didn't roll over and take it I did something about it.

 

I don't feel sorry for people, opportunity is out there you just have to take it, sometimes it means risking everything including your life but that's the price of being successful.

 

The only time people are equal is at death, because no one beats the reaper, and that's a fact.

[Fender&EHX4ever]

 

I really find the I worked hard argument offensive... They work/worked their balls off for their entire life to provide for their families. Anyone who says they didn't work as hard as some millionaire needs a swift kick in the nuts

 

 

It is offensive. I know a few millionaires, and many of them were enjoying the Florida sun at Tavistock this week while the other 99% were doing something much less glamorous all day. But God forbid they should be taxed for that.

[NoRomoFan]

 

When I moved out of my parents house 25 years ago I had a guitar, a pregnant girlfriend and $45 in cash that was it. Everything I have is from busting my ass, I did every {censored} job you can imagine until I was in a position to make things happen for my family. I don't feel sorry for people, opportunity is out there you just have to take it, sometimes it means risking everything including your life but that's the price of being successful.

 

 

I applaud you. Busted mine too and that's the reason I'm successful now as well. I didn't whine or expect handouts either but hard to tell that to the younguns here who feel 'entitled'

[ben_allison]

I find it bizzare as an atheist looking over these debates, both here and in the Political forum that there is a high proportion of christians who oppose a system that at its heart is there to help those who need it most.

 

 

FWIW, I'm a Christian and think our highest duty to man is to be charitable and ensure no one goes without. This was central to Christ's ministry.

 

In fact, often, he didn't preach unless he FIRST met a need. Feeding, restoring sight, etc.

 

IOW, he filled bellies first, and got to religion later. Making sure those with much help out those with little is at the heart of the gospel.

 

The Blble-belt brand of self-righteous and indignant Christianity makes me nauseous.

[NoRomoFan]

Indeed. The same party who says that Jesus takes care of everything also seems to think that Jesus wants to take care of those who don't want to take care of the less fortunate. It is offensive. I know a few millionaires, and many of them were enjoying the Florida sun at Tavistock this week while the other 99% were doing something much less glamorous all day. But God forbid they should be taxed for that.

 

I would think Jesus would want to help those who help themselves the most but that's just my personal opinion. Some people are less 'fortunate' because of lifestyles and bad choices they make but they can't see that because they don't see it. You have to know the truth to know what a lie is.

[ben_allison]

When I moved out of my parents house 25 years ago I had a guitar, a pregnant girlfriend and $45 in cash that was it.

 

 

Well done.

 

But don't mistake your good fortune for some universal truth about getting out what you put in.

 

Many good people, with strong work ethic, are dying in hospital hallways. Or worse, at home, without basic treatment or care.

 

What is American about that?

[AnderMocs]

FWIW, I'm a Christian and think our highest duty to man is to be charitable and ensure no one goes without. This was central to Christ's ministry. In fact, often, he didn't preach unless he FIRST met a need. Feeding, restoring sight, etc. IOW, he filled bellies first, and got to religion later. Making sure those with much help out those with little is at the heart of the gospel. The Blble-belt brand of self-righteous and indignant Christianity makes me nauseous.

 

 

THANK YOU. I have no problem with Christianity. I have a problem with the perverted bull{censored} we get in this country.

 

and lets not make this a religion thread. that is certain to get locked, and we're on the edge as it is. I'm enjoying this thread.

[Fender&EHX4ever]

 

I would think Jesus would want to help those who help themselves the most but that's just my personal opinion.

 

 

I'm pretty sure this thread has presented a fair number of examples of folks who do help themselves, and because of circumstances or bad luck, they still need some help.

 

Not everyone who benefits from the healthcare plan are freeloaders, just like not everone who makes $500K+ in this country really work all that much harder than the rest of us for it.

[NoRomoFan]

The Blble-belt brand of self-righteous and indignant Christianity makes me nauseous.

 

 

I agree. Words without actions means little. Back it up and there's no problem.

[AnderMocs]

Well done. But don't mistake your good fortune for some universal truth about getting out what you put in. Many good people, with strong work ethic, are dying in hospital hallways. Or worse, at home, without basic treatment or care. What is American about that?

 

 

again. thank you.

[ben_allison]

THANK YOU. I have no problem with Christianity. I have a problem with the perverted bull{censored} we get in this country. and lets not make this a religion thread. that is certain to get locked, and we're on the edge as it is. I'm enjoying this thread.

 

 

Cool beans. Yeah, I don't want to "go their" either... I just wanted to set the record straight. Our religious friend from a page back doesn't speak for all of us.

[ben_allison]

again. thank you.

 

Dude, just {censored}ing move up here. You can get to PA from Toronto in like, 8 hours.

 

[NoRomoFan]

 

I'm pretty sure this thread has presented a fair number of examples of folks who do help themselves, and because of circumstances or bad luck, they still need some help. Not everyone who benefits from the healthcare plan are freeloaders, just like not everone who makes $500K+ in this country really work all that much harder than the rest of us for it.

 

 

I didn't mean to imply that they were. Of course there's people that have hit on hard times and I don't mind helping as long as they're working towards fixing the situation (I was homeless for quite a bit of time when I was younger; I know adversity and what it's like to go without food and asking someone if you can work for just enough to eat and having to wash your hair in a sink at a convenience store and use the hand hair dryer to dry your hair). It's people that take advantage of the situation and reap all the benefits without contributing that bother me.