Guys who play live: How loud do you play?

[hugbot]

I had a gig last week where the band soundchecking before us were up for like a million goddamn years having trouble with levels and feedback and such. So asked the soundguy if we could try using the amps emulated output direct to DI? He was adamant that it would sound bad, but I wanted to try just to see what it was like for myself.

 

It was pretty good, everything going through the monitors, the absolute bare minimum coming from the amps master volume on stage. Real full sounding both out front and on stage. Expecially since the DI simulates a close micced 4x12 cab, while the actual amp is a 1x12 combo.

 

I'm tempted to just try going the POD straight to board route, except I think you need some stage volume, especially because singers hate having the monitor mix be full of guitar.

[JDE]

These days I play pretty quietly most of the time. I'd love to play really loud like I did when I was in bands in my teens and stuff, but it gets to a point where it makes it hard for me to hear properly and is really distracting. I mainly use a pair of Pro Jrs with the volumes between 4 and 6 on both. I still think that's too loud.

[smallsnd/bigsnd]

 

I don't know about this. I've worked with great soundguys and terrible ones, and frankly if a soundguy is so jaded that it's impossible to build a working relationship with him, then he's a bad sound guy. I always arrive at a gig fresh and courteous, and willing to work with everyone who's there to put on a good show. And for what it's worth, even if his mix was terrible I'll still thank him at the end of the night. I don't think it's fair to assume I'm a jumped up wannabe rockstar when I know what I want to help me be a confident performer.

 

 

+1

[Cirrus]

Hi Smallsound/Bigsound!

You've reminded me that I want to know what a {censored} overdrive sounds like with an AC30. I bet soundmen would love that one! Might need to get saving...

[ambient]

I don't know about this. I've worked with great soundguys and terrible ones, and frankly if a soundguy is so jaded that it's impossible to build a working relationship with him, then he's a bad sound guy. I always arrive at a gig fresh and courteous, and willing to work with everyone who's there to put on a good show. And for what it's worth, even if his mix was terrible I'll still thank him at the end of the night. I don't think it's fair to assume I'm a jumped up wannabe rockstar when I know what I want to help me be a confident performer.

 

 

I didn't you specifically, though definitely something resembling the majority of guys playing originals in bars. Walking in like their stuff is the most important thing happening and talking to the guy running sound as if he works for them.

 

"if a soundguy is so jaded that it's impossible to build a working relationship with him, then he's a bad sound guy. "

 

I agree with this. But again, that's not what I was saying. I'm saying most bands don't know how to build a working relationship with a sound guy.

 

Rightly or wrongly; the 'jumped up wannabe rockstar' archetype is so common that as many/most soundmen (or tech/backstage guys when dealing with 'the talent') are concerned, you're a rude-arrogant-{censored}wit-who-doesn't-know-{censored} until proven otherwise. Consciously or not, people will always do their best work when they like/respect those involved and are passionate about what they're doing.

 

Monitors are one thing, but critisizing his FOH mix is a quick way to get on a their bad side. Unless you're the one paying him.

[imbuedblue]

Playing loud is fun, but I never really get to. I play through an AC30 for outdoor gigs and larger rooms, and a Deluxe Reverb for the smaller clubs. One band has a singing drummer with a light touch who does not want to hear himself through a monitor, so the stage volume is usually tame on those gigs. We run vocals and the kick through the PA and try to get a good balance out front with everything else. Smaller amps tend to work better for getting some tone at these volumes.

My other band is a synthpop duo. We usually run our own sound, and I set my guitar amp for a good mix out front without it going through the PA. We have drum machines, synths, and vocals all running through a board on stage. On bigger gigs with a sound guy, we run the drum machines and synths through the board, run stereo outs to the sound guy, and let him take care of the vocals and guitar.

[smallsnd/bigsnd]

Hi Smallsound/Bigsound! You've reminded me that I want to know what a {censored} overdrive sounds like with an AC30. I bet soundmen would love that one! Might need to get saving...

hey! you can call me brian. i don't think i've heard that combo yet actually! don't think they'd care if it was turned down...

on topic though, i think the main issue with live guitars is the sheer amount of high end. taming the treble somewhat makes it MUCH easier for the FOH to get a good sound from a louder amp.

[NITEFLY182]

One of my bands plays shows where I crank 100 watt heads and only vocals and kick go in the house. My indie rock band often plays more controlled shows and Im often miserable on stage as I can only hear the drums and barely myself. I make do though.

[Cirrus]

Monitors are one thing, but critisizing his FOH mix is a quick way to get on a their bad side. Unless you're the one paying him.

 

I agree, and I don't ever criticise soundmen to their face. It achieves nothing. That's why I'm doing it here!

[NITEFLY182]

I've seen good and bad bands and good and bad soundmen. The bad examples of both often in my experience come with bad attitudes, which is I guess a way to hide their own insecurities. I've been talking about my ideal, "This is perfect for me" situation, I do work with soundmen, making compromises. I've got the attenuator to prove it! But my observation, based on my own gigging experience, often in the same venue just with different soundmen, is that the good ones can work with what the band gives them, and it's often the ones that start dictating terms to the band that still end up having trouble getting a monitor or front of house mix that helps the band sound good. The soundman on Friday's gig was a textbook example of this. We set up as usual, did a quick play to check things were ok for us while he (slowly) set mics up. Then we shut up, and wait for his instructions re; soundcheck. He took 40 minutes to set up the drum mix, while we stood by patiently but increasingly worried. Then time to get bass sounds... "Can you turn the amp down?" "Sure, no problem". He spent several minutes from there EQ'ing the bass. How does he know how to EQ it before he's heard us? How does he know whether a trebly or bassy sound is fine, which midrange frequencies work with the drums and guitar... still I kept my mouth shut. I clicked my attenuator a notch further down than usual in anticipation of getting the same treatment. "Ok, guitarist" * strums a chord " "TURN IT DOWN" * Turns it right down * "A bit more..." * clicks attenuator to max, half power switch on, amp is a distant hiss * "Thanks, now play a song" We played a song and I just couldn't hear myself at all, and neither could the other guys. The drummer looked over at me with doe eyes and a sad face. Still I had faith though. Surely with my amp this low, the front of house could really do some heavy lifting and disperse my sound through the room! I waited 'til the last verse, and walked off the stage to see what the soundman had done with all the control we'd given him. {censored}ing clown shoes had still managed to bury the vocal in a wash of bassy feedback with drums that were way too loud, bass tone that made no sense for the song... and the only guitar I could hear at all was a whisper from the stage. And you know what? He still couldn't give us a monitor mix that was intelligible either. Yep, this guy was a clown, but compare that to the last time we played the room with a different guy from the same company. We set up like we usually do, he breezed through sound check in 5 minutes, and the sound was much much better on and off stage. haha Look what you've made me do, this has turned into a cool story bro post! I agree, and I don't ever criticise soundmen to their face. It achieves nothing. That's why I'm doing it here!

 

If you want an engineer that knows or cares about your songs and how you want them to sound in perfect fairy tale land, then hire someone and pay them as an employee of the band. A house engineer's job is to know the venue and get a workable sound out of the band at a volume that works for the venue. It doesn't matter to them if the bass tone sounds like your record. Honestly, it doesn't matter to anyone what the bass sounds like as long as its there and the bass player doesn't {censored} up.

[Ryan.]

i try to keep a quiet stage level

[tronus]

I've recently started playing my 90 watt Mark V through a 4x12 Marshall cab (a generic one) at band practice with this new band... The other guitar player started it... I'm just using his extra 4x12... I don't know which end is up any more... I want one!

[goodhonk]

 

i try to keep a quiet stage level

 

 

[video=youtube;4q_WQ1J-pL0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q_WQ1J-pL0

[Cirrus]

It doesn't matter to them if the bass tone sounds like your record. Honestly, it doesn't matter to anyone what the bass sounds like as long as its there and the bass player doesn't {censored} up.

 

I think that's a {censored}ty attitude to be honest. Ok, it doesn't matter to you. But maybe if the people who have some control over it cared more, less live shows would have {censored} sound. I don't understand the attitude that caring is too high and mighty for lowly, {censored}ty unknown bands of the kind most of us are in.

 

I don't think a good engineer should automatically and magically mix us the way I want, but I do think we as musical ensembles should be clear in our intention so that when we're playing, it's obvious to the soundguy what makes sense for the music. If they don't want to serve the music, why are they doing sound? It's not like the pay makes it worthwhile!

[JoJo68]

Dimed my 120 watt matamp at our gig last sat. ( the way I prefer to play ) The soundman, didn't say {censored}. Sounded killer ( and felt killer too, so I'm told )

[oinkbanana]

I don't think a good engineer should automatically and magically mix us the way I want, but I do think we as musical ensembles should be clear in our intention so that when we're playing, it's obvious to the soundguy what makes sense for the music. If they don't want to serve the music, why are they doing sound? It's not like the pay makes it worthwhile!

it all comes down to who's paying the mixing engineer.

the house engineer serves the house.

bringing and paying your own will give you one that serves you.

you can also use it to negotiate a better rate from the venue since they don't have to pay their guy for that night.

[theboywho]

There are 7 of us, so by default we are pretty loud. We usually set up and play to a level where it sounds good on stage and then if the vocals can't match it through the monitors turn down. Usually the sound guys we have had have been pretty good, although there have been a couple of exceptions. We like the vocals on a similarish level to the other instruments, with a lot of FX which our vocalist has from a pedal, sometimes we find tbey have pushed the vocals above everything else and left them pretty dry though.

I think for what we do the music needs to be at least at a certain volume, lots of drones and mantric phrases which if they aren't loud enough lose effect and sound weak. It's nice for people to not be able to talk over you too.

 

I've worked as a sound guy in smaller venues, up to about 150-200 people, I prefer the approach of the amps doing most of the work, with a little push from the PA when needed. If the band is good they should know what they want it to sound like and usually can get it right from stage.

[six acre lake]

Second'd

[christianatl]

STOP TRYING TO BE LIKE ME.

[NITEFLY182]

I think that's a {censored}ty attitude to be honest. Ok, it doesn't matter to you. But maybe if the people who have some control over it cared more, less live shows would have {censored} sound. I don't understand the attitude that caring is too high and mighty for lowly, {censored}ty unknown bands of the kind most of us are in. I don't think a good engineer should automatically and magically mix us the way I want, but I do think we as musical ensembles should be clear in our intention so that when we're playing, it's obvious to the soundguy what makes sense for the music. If they don't want to serve the music, why are they doing sound? It's not like the pay makes it worthwhile!

 

Its a realistic attitude for musicians who are not successful financially. When you reach the point where you have your own sound engineers on tour (and not trying to bring your friend into the venue to mix for you) then all the minor details beyond getting the levels even can be relevant. Until that point its a nuisance to make a big deal about those things and makes you look foolish. Any time I see a local band fussing about the mix its way more amateur than if they relied on their skills to put on a good show without worrying that they didn't have enough 2k in the guitar tone coming through the monitor.

[oinkbanana]

STOP TRYING TO BE LIKE ME.

am I like you too?

 

 

because sometimes when the audience thinks your orange stack is too loud and as loud as it's gonna get,

just step on the volume pedal to roll in as second stack, to get even more air moving

[Moustache_Bash]

Not criticizing, but why roadcases for the cabs rather than the heads?

[oinkbanana]

head cases are not live in, and are on the side.

[Cirrus]

Any time I see a local band fussing about the mix its way more amateur than if they relied on their skills to put on a good show without worrying that they didn't have enough 2k in the guitar tone coming through the monitor.

 

I think this post is a good example of how you can be talking about one thing on a theoretical/ idealistic level, and someone takes it literally and to its logical extreme.

 

In practice I've never got into details for my monitor mix other than "Can I have a bit more/ less X" And even then I've got a huge tolerance for not being able to hear my vocals. If the engineer can't get me what I need quickly, my inclination is just to say "That's better, thanks." And I've not ever even vocalised an opinion to the sound guy on a Front of House mix, ever. Nothing would be achieved by that. Nor have I ever seen a single other band ever say anything about that.

 

That doesn't mean I'm not thinking about these things, and I'm perfectly capable of judging whether a sound guy is good or {censored} in the privacy of my own mind. I take a little offense that because I'm expressing that I care what my band sounds like out front you're saying that a; I'm an idiot for doing so because no one cares and b; it's likely hurting my ability to put on a good show. Those are bizarre generalities and I don't really see why you've brought them to the discussion.

 

If your band doesn't care what the soundguy does that's fine, it's your music, your style, your ethos. It doesn't make you superior.

[t_e_l_e]

band/people on stage are responsible for the stage sound

soundguy makes the sound for the audience and hopefully knows the venue (sound characteristics, reflection behaviour...)

 

both need the help of each other.

 

without the soundguy there will be no vocals (or anything what needs to be) in the monitors, so the stage sound will suck. if you play without vocals you might not need the sound guy for stage sound...

 

with a terrible (too loud or interfering) stage sound, the sound guy can't do anything to make the mix for the audience better

 

its make both (band, soundguy) live easier if stage sound can be separated from the mix from the audience

it becomes much easier to do so, the larger the venue gets, open air especially is great

in small clubs its much harder to do, even impossible

 

therefore its essential that everybody involved understands the role of each other, everybody knows the things what he is responsible for and how they interwork with the others and there is a base to work together.

 

if the band don't know how to achieve a good workable stage sound they are doomed

either the stage volume is too low and they can't hear each other/themselfs and never the comfortable feeling for the playing will come up and you will play like {censored}e

or you are too loud and interfere too much with the sound guy and he can't rescue a good sound for the audience.

in both cases the audience will hear a bad sounding band and the band on stage is the only responsible for it

 

yeah there are bad sound guys, but what makes it worse is giving a bad sound guy bad instructions.

giving a bad sound guy good instructions in the right the direction can make things better

 

so bands know your sh*t and how to communicate it...

 

i'm still learning to know my sh*t...