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OT: anyone want to talk about Australia's gun laws?


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Quote Originally Posted by ChrisFFTA

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And some say you are judged by the company you keep.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate


The saddest thing is that a topic that should unite a country, looks like it will just drive it further apart

 

You're more likely to die at your own hand than at the hands of another according to that. With a firearm death rate of 10.2 per 100,000, 3.7 were homicides, 6.1 suicides, and 0.2 accidental or unintentional. That's considerably less than the countries that rank higher on the list; most of which are homicides.


Compare auto fatalities with firearms sometime. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_safety If we extrapolate from that 10.2 per 100,000 figure, and based on a 300 million population, that's approximately 30k people per year, from ALL firearms related deaths, and approximately 11,000 intentional, non-self inflicted homicides per year out of a population of 300 million people. If the discussion is revolving around gun murders, I personally think that suicides shouldn't be considered - if you really want to off yourself, and a gun isn't handy, you'll find another way to do it - pills, carbon dioxide poisoning, a knife, jumping from a high location, etc. But even if we count every gun death, it's still 25% fewer than traffic fatalities - and no one seems to be calling for cars to be outlawed. Toss in drinking and driving - and again, while there are plenty of calls for increased enforcement of existing drunk driving laws, and even occasional calls for stricter penalties for those who drink and drive, no one seems to be calling for alcohol to be outlawed again.


Personal responsibility and accountability are, IMHO, the key to both. Sure, you have a right to own a firearm as long as you're not a convicted felon or a former mental patient, but if you do something stupid with it, I'm all for throwing the book at you. Same thing with drinking, and even drugs for that matter. Drink all you want... but if you get in a car afterwards and kill a family of six, then IMO, you should get the same type of sentence as a person convicted of 2nd degree murder.

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Quote Originally Posted by Jisatsu

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You forgot pump action weapons and lever action weapons. And you also banned like 90% of all bolt action weapons with your 6 round max. What kind of sentencing are you suggesting for people who refuse to turn in firearms? What kind of compensation would I receive for turning in my firearms? Fair market value? Original price I paid? Do you think uncle sam wants to drop that many millions of dollars on gun turn ins? A good percentage of americans would be jobless as well. Are you going to pay their unemployment?


Just curious.


Here's something a little better for you.


1. Restrict ownership of scary type weapons. (by definition all weapons are an "assault" type weapon) People are upset about NFA, SBR, and suppressor laws, but we work with them and are okay with them generally. $200 tax stamp to own an AR-15? Fine, another $200 to own an AK? Perfect. Uncle sam gets money, I get to own a scary weapon.


2. Revise and enforce the FFL form 4473. (here it is so you know what gun owners have to claim when they purchase a new firearm http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf )


3. Have paper work to submit for private sales. Washington state has a voluntary ONLY form you can fill out for handguns, but it doesn't apply to rifles. Do not tax or charge private sales, it's bad enough we have to do this with automobiles, why should a person be fined and taxed on something that already has been fined and taxed? Just seems like a senseless tax.


4. Ammo is already taxed, leave it alone. If you want restitution for shooting victims, why don't you take it from the felons that commited the crimes, or their families. Don't punish the (very) many for the actions of the few.


5. Insurance on firearms would be fantastic. Most insurance companies won't touch it because they are afraid of having to pay out for accidental discharges and what not. I'd love to insure every one of my firearms.


6. Mandatory written test. Followed by a practical application demonstration. I'd be very okay with this. Especially on concealed carry licenses.


7. Mandatory locking devices for all firearms. Enforcement of this rule.

 


I certainly don't have all the answers, maybe very few really. I'm thinking more big picture at this point. True reform will be done with people who have a better legal mind than I, and are better versed with the various weapons that are available (maybe you?).


I'll look at a few of your suggestions that I can actually answer, or have an opinion of (remember, my list was if I was supreme dictator, not someone like Congress or Obama that has to actually answer to other people).


7. Mandatory locking devices for all firearms. Enforcement of this rule. I would agree, excellent idea/law. Read a story just last week of a man who accidentally killed his little 3 year old trying to sell a gun to a dealer (sale didn't happen) and he put his gun back in a glove compartment and it went off accidentally from being jarred, and killed his little boy. I can't fathom the grief his living with every day, for the rest of his life.


6. Mandatory written test. Followed by a practical application demonstration. I'd be very okay with this. Especially on concealed carry licenses. Absolutely, it has to happen. Just like a driver license. Hell, I had to show proof of ID the other day to buy some Alkaseltzer cold medicine. Why? People abusing it. Now there are laws prohibiting the sale to minors, or to anyone in bulk. Also, Along with this test, I believe a pyschiatric test needs to be administered as well. Not sure how it would be done, but the mentally ill should not be allowed to buy guns. The current gun show loophole doesn't prohibit this, and it should.


5. Insurance on firearms would be fantastic. Most insurance companies won't touch it because they are afraid of having to pay out for accidental discharges and what not. I'd love to insure every one of my firearms. Excellent! We're on the same page here. I'm sure someone will make money on this at the end. You don't see car insurance companies going out of business very often. And you don't see people not buying cars anymore either.


4. Ammo is already taxed, leave it alone. If you want restitution for shooting victims, why don't you take it from the felons that commited the crimes, or their families. Don't punish the (very) many for the actions of the few. How much tax is currently placed on ammo? I bet it's not nearly high enough. Are you talking state sales tax (which isn't in every state) or a federal tax? We tax the hell out of cigarettes for good reason, there are no health benefits to smoking, and it cause a huge burden on health care. So does gun shots. It doesn't always have to be a crime either. Thousand of gun owners are injured every year by themselves, accidentally. They might, or might not have health insurance to heal their wounds. But all citizens will indirectly pick up those costs. And how does a madman like Adam Lazar pay for his crimes when he kills himself with absolutely no assets? Columbine? Etc., etc.


3. Have paper work to submit for private sales. Washington state has a voluntary ONLY form you can fill out for handguns, but it doesn't apply to rifles. Do not tax or charge private sales, it's bad enough we have to do this with automobiles, why should a person be fined and taxed on something that already has been fined and taxed? Just seems like a senseless tax. I don't agree with this at all. Way too easy for people who can't buy guns legally, to buy them this way. I don't care if this is a pain in the ass. If you sell a gun, it has to be to a registered dealer for resale. Part of the pain in the ass you have to deal with now, being a gun owner.


2. Revise and enforce the FFL form 4473. (here it is so you know what gun owners have to claim when they purchase a new firearm http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf ) Who should revise this form, Congress? I'll take a look at this later and see what's involved. I know the document to buy a car/lease or buy a house is a huge headache, but there's a good reason for it. And if you want to buy suddenly a lot of fertilizer, ala McVeigh, there are very tight controls on this too. Gun owners shouldn't be excluded either. Maybe reduce forms, with better ones, is that what you're suggesting?


1. Restrict ownership of scary type weapons. (by definition all weapons are an "assault" type weapon) People are upset about NFA, SBR, and suppressor laws, but we work with them and are okay with them generally. $200 tax stamp to own an AR-15? Fine, another $200 to own an AK? Perfect. Uncle sam gets money, I get to own a scary weapon. Sorry I don't think $200 is going to deter someone who wants to kills people for whatever reason. And while you might say all weapons are assault weapons, you're being disingenuous here, we know in society that for discussion purposes, assault weapons are those that can fire hundreds of rounds of bullets in a very short time, like in Newtown. Or Aurora, or...list goes on.


Remember, my list, which is not being endorsed by anyone, I would not allow these type of "scary" weapons. And yes you're being punished unfairly, I recognize that. But that is now the price you pay for having too lax laws these years. If I could bring back those innocent 20 children, and 6 adults from Newtown, and take away your precious guns, I would do it in a heartbeat. Most Americans would these days. We're fed up.

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Quote Originally Posted by IRG

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You have almost zero chance of defending yourself from someone who really wants to kill you. If you truly believe this, I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Great article on ABC News I watched the other night, that featured a bunch of people, some with gun experience, some with none (and some had a lot) and then they were all given training in self defense. And without fail, every single one of them (with a gun strapped on to their waist) when confronted with a surprise shooter, were "killed" every single time. Diane Sawyer did the interview. I was genuinely surprised, as were the gun enthusiasts in the bunch. I'll see if I can find it. Bottom line is, in the VAST majority of situations, your gun, will not save you. And most likely, it will be turned against you/your family. You're much better off getting a dog and/or alarm if you are afraid of a home invasion.


And your guns do pose a threat if they're stolen by thieves, and then used against innocent people.

 

I work in EMS and I know response times to a breaking and entering vary from 2 mnutes to well over 15 depending on call volume and where a unit is at during the time the call is dispatched. 2 minutes is a looooong time for a criminal to do whatever it is they intend on doing. I leave my wife and kid to go work a 24 hour shift in another county. I don't feel safe leaving them with nothing more than an ADT alarm while I am gone so I bought my wife a 9mm and taught her how to use it. I don't believe anyone who would break into a home while someone is there would have any intentions other than to cause harm. Not trying to sound all Billy Badass here and I don't know if you have kids or not, but if anyone comes in my house uninvited while my family and I are home I will do what I need to do to keep them protected. Does that mean the first thing I wanna do is shoot them? No, but I would rather have a gun and not need it than need one and not have it.


Banning guns won't solve anything. We need to fix a ton of problems in this country and gun control should be at the bottom of the list. Americans in general are lazy sensitive bitches who feel they are entitled to things they don't deserve. If something offends them instead of being tolerant and accepting they whine because someone damaged their fragile sensibilities.

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Quote Originally Posted by IRG

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I certainly don't have all the answers, maybe very few really. I'm thinking more big picture at this point. True reform will be done with people who have a better legal mind than I, and are better versed with the various weapons that are available (maybe you?).


I'll look at a few of your suggestions that I can actually answer, or have an opinion of (remember, my list was if I was supreme dictator, not someone like Congress or Obama that has to actually answer to other people).


7. Mandatory locking devices for all firearms. Enforcement of this rule. I would agree, excellent idea/law. Read a story just last week of a man who accidentally killed his little 3 year old trying to sell a gun to a dealer (sale didn't happen) and he put his gun back in a glove compartment and it went off accidentally from being jarred, and killed his little boy. I can't fathom the grief his living with every day, for the rest of his life.


6. Mandatory written test. Followed by a practical application demonstration. I'd be very okay with this. Especially on concealed carry licenses. Absolutely, it has to happen. Just like a driver license. Hell, I had to show proof of ID the other day to buy some Alkaseltzer cold medicine. Why? People abusing it. Now there are laws prohibiting the sale to minors, or to anyone in bulk. Also, Along with this test, I believe a pyschiatric test needs to be administered as well. Not sure how it would be done, but the mentally ill should not be allowed to buy guns. The current gun show loophole doesn't prohibit this, and it should.


5. Insurance on firearms would be fantastic. Most insurance companies won't touch it because they are afraid of having to pay out for accidental discharges and what not. I'd love to insure every one of my firearms. Excellent! We're on the same page here. I'm sure someone will make money on this at the end. You don't see car insurance companies going out of business very often. And you don't see people not buying cars anymore either.


4. Ammo is already taxed, leave it alone. If you want restitution for shooting victims, why don't you take it from the felons that commited the crimes, or their families. Don't punish the (very) many for the actions of the few. How much tax is currently placed on ammo? I bet it's not nearly high enough. Are you talking state sales tax (which isn't in every state) or a federal tax? We tax the hell out of cigarettes for good reason, there are no health benefits to smoking, and it cause a huge burden on health care. So does gun shots. It doesn't always have to be a crime either. Thousand of gun owners are injured every year by themselves, accidentally. They might, or might not have health insurance to heal their wounds. But all citizens will indirectly pick up those costs. And how does a madman like Adam Lazar pay for his crimes when he kills himself with absolutely no assets? Columbine? Etc., etc.


3. Have paper work to submit for private sales. Washington state has a voluntary ONLY form you can fill out for handguns, but it doesn't apply to rifles. Do not tax or charge private sales, it's bad enough we have to do this with automobiles, why should a person be fined and taxed on something that already has been fined and taxed? Just seems like a senseless tax. I don't agree with this at all. Way too easy for people who can't buy guns legally, to buy them this way. I don't care if this is a pain in the ass. If you sell a gun, it has to be to a registered dealer for resale. Part of the pain in the ass you have to deal with now, being a gun owner.


2. Revise and enforce the FFL form 4473. (here it is so you know what gun owners have to claim when they purchase a new firearm http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf ) Who should revise this form, Congress? I'll take a look at this later and see what's involved. I know the document to buy a car/lease or buy a house is a huge headache, but there's a good reason for it. And if you want to buy suddenly a lot of fertilizer, ala McVeigh, there are very tight controls on this too. Gun owners shouldn't be excluded either. Maybe reduce forms, with better ones, is that what you're suggesting?


1. Restrict ownership of scary type weapons. (by definition all weapons are an "assault" type weapon) People are upset about NFA, SBR, and suppressor laws, but we work with them and are okay with them generally. $200 tax stamp to own an AR-15? Fine, another $200 to own an AK? Perfect. Uncle sam gets money, I get to own a scary weapon. Sorry I don't think $200 is going to deter someone who wants to kills people for whatever reason. And while you might say all weapons are assault weapons, you're being disingenuous here, we know in society that for discussion purposes, assault weapons are those that can fire hundreds of rounds of bullets in a very short time, like in Newtown. Or Aurora, or...list goes on.


Remember, my list, which is not being endorsed by anyone, I would not allow these type of "scary" weapons. And yes you're being punished unfairly, I recognize that. But that is now the price you pay for having too lax laws these years. If I could bring back those innocent 20 children, and 6 adults from Newtown, and take away your precious guns, I would do it in a heartbeat. Most Americans would these days. We're fed up.

 

We do this now. Its called Medicaid.
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Quote Originally Posted by IRG

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I certainly don't have all the answers, maybe very few really. I'm thinking more big picture at this point. True reform will be done with people who have a better legal mind than I, and are better versed with the various weapons that are available (maybe you?).


I'll look at a few of your suggestions that I can actually answer, or have an opinion of (remember, my list was if I was supreme dictator, not someone like Congress or Obama that has to actually answer to other people).


7. Mandatory locking devices for all firearms. Enforcement of this rule. I would agree, excellent idea/law. Read a story just last week of a man who accidentally killed his little 3 year old trying to sell a gun to a dealer (sale didn't happen) and he put his gun back in a glove compartment and it went off accidentally from being jarred, and killed his little boy. I can't fathom the grief his living with every day, for the rest of his life.


6. Mandatory written test. Followed by a practical application demonstration. I'd be very okay with this. Especially on concealed carry licenses. Absolutely, it has to happen. Just like a driver license. Hell, I had to show proof of ID the other day to buy some Alkaseltzer cold medicine. Why? People abusing it. Now there are laws prohibiting the sale to minors, or to anyone in bulk. Also, Along with this test, I believe a pyschiatric test needs to be administered as well. Not sure how it would be done, but the mentally ill should not be allowed to buy guns. The current gun show loophole doesn't prohibit this, and it should.


5. Insurance on firearms would be fantastic. Most insurance companies won't touch it because they are afraid of having to pay out for accidental discharges and what not. I'd love to insure every one of my firearms. Excellent! We're on the same page here. I'm sure someone will make money on this at the end. You don't see car insurance companies going out of business very often. And you don't see people not buying cars anymore either.


4. Ammo is already taxed, leave it alone. If you want restitution for shooting victims, why don't you take it from the felons that commited the crimes, or their families. Don't punish the (very) many for the actions of the few. How much tax is currently placed on ammo? I bet it's not nearly high enough. Are you talking state sales tax (which isn't in every state) or a federal tax? We tax the hell out of cigarettes for good reason, there are no health benefits to smoking, and it cause a huge burden on health care. So does gun shots. It doesn't always have to be a crime either. Thousand of gun owners are injured every year by themselves, accidentally. They might, or might not have health insurance to heal their wounds. But all citizens will indirectly pick up those costs. And how does a madman like Adam Lazar pay for his crimes when he kills himself with absolutely no assets? Columbine? Etc., etc.


3. Have paper work to submit for private sales. Washington state has a voluntary ONLY form you can fill out for handguns, but it doesn't apply to rifles. Do not tax or charge private sales, it's bad enough we have to do this with automobiles, why should a person be fined and taxed on something that already has been fined and taxed? Just seems like a senseless tax. I don't agree with this at all. Way too easy for people who can't buy guns legally, to buy them this way. I don't care if this is a pain in the ass. If you sell a gun, it has to be to a registered dealer for resale. Part of the pain in the ass you have to deal with now, being a gun owner.


2. Revise and enforce the FFL form 4473. (here it is so you know what gun owners have to claim when they purchase a new firearm http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf ) Who should revise this form, Congress? I'll take a look at this later and see what's involved. I know the document to buy a car/lease or buy a house is a huge headache, but there's a good reason for it. And if you want to buy suddenly a lot of fertilizer, ala McVeigh, there are very tight controls on this too. Gun owners shouldn't be excluded either. Maybe reduce forms, with better ones, is that what you're suggesting?


1. Restrict ownership of scary type weapons. (by definition all weapons are an "assault" type weapon) People are upset about NFA, SBR, and suppressor laws, but we work with them and are okay with them generally. $200 tax stamp to own an AR-15? Fine, another $200 to own an AK? Perfect. Uncle sam gets money, I get to own a scary weapon. Sorry I don't think $200 is going to deter someone who wants to kills people for whatever reason. And while you might say all weapons are assault weapons, you're being disingenuous here, we know in society that for discussion purposes, assault weapons are those that can fire hundreds of rounds of bullets in a very short time, like in Newtown. Or Aurora, or...list goes on.


Remember, my list, which is not being endorsed by anyone, I would not allow these type of "scary" weapons. And yes you're being punished unfairly, I recognize that. But that is now the price you pay for having too lax laws these years. If I could bring back those innocent 20 children, and 6 adults from Newtown, and take away your precious guns, I would do it in a heartbeat. Most Americans would these days. We're fed up.

 

Ammo is taxed pretty heavily in my state, and the federal government also taxes it. WA state is very expensive to live in, and it just seems ridiculous to add more taxes. As far as who pays for it? Well obviously the family, or whoever else is legally liable for his mischief. It works for everyone else victimized in other ways, correct? There are legal routes in place currently for restitution.


As for the paper work route. I agree that there needs to be private sales registered. I don't believe you should be re-taxed on the same item. Should you pay a tax and go through a dealer every time you sell lamp shades on craigslist? Nope. But I do agree private sales need to be tightened up. There should be mandatory forms to fill out for both parties, and they should be submitted to local governmet licensing agencies. When this happens, that government agency can do the checks on the sale. If it's not kosher, then we know who to go after at that point (seller or buyer).


Form 4473 is pretty black or white with it's questions. Basically it asks you to answer questions like "are you a felon? are you running from the law? have you been diagnosed with a mental illness?" Anyone can just put yes on that form and purchase a firearm if the NICS check comes back clear. The problem is the NICS check doesn't really go deep enough into your background. The 5 day wait is a joke, and due to HIPAA law, it's almost impossible to verify if someone has a mental health issue. People who violate this form need stiffer penalties, and there needs to be better enforcement of this form and requirement.


What you don't know about the Tax stamp process for NFA, SBR, and Suppressor sales is that it's usually a 6-9month background check process. The ATF conducts a pretty exacting background check in this case.


If you are so fed up, then why don't you blame the shooter? He was not a legal gun owner. He didn't purchase any firearms under the system. If he had tried, he would have been denied. He stole them. Just based on that merit alone, he was a criminal. Then add in the horrible horrible acts he did, it's tradgic. He didn't buy a gun at a gun store. He didn't take advantage of private firearms sales. He didn't even use a fully automatic weapon. He used a pistol, which he was unable to purchase legally. Be upset with criminals. Not with legal and responsible gun owners. Legal gun owners didn't do this.


I deal with criminals daily, and I've worked in all custody security levels from super max down to work camps. The ones who commit violent crimes, especially with firearms, are not normal people. They don't go into gun stores and buy guns legally. In most cases they can't because they usually have other crimes on their records before they move up into violent crimes. You don't see innocent people legally buying guns then shooting up places.



The last AWB (assault weapons ban) was pioneered by a man who was shot with a little 6 shot revolver. It wasn't an AK or an AR, or a machinegun, it wasn't a bazooka, it wasn't a glock pistol with 600 bullets in it's 'clip.' It was a little .22lr revolver. The one gun that wasn't restricted after the AWB. I'm sure he felt much safer.

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Quote Originally Posted by conky

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I work in EMS and I know response times to a breaking and entering vary from 2 mnutes to well over 15 depending on call volume and where a unit is at during the time the call is dispatched. 2 minutes is a looooong time for a criminal to do whatever it is they intend on doing.

 

Depending on the time of day, it can be 20 minutes or more for us to see a sheriff's deputy arrive after a life or death emergency call to 911... and that's what I was told by THEM.


The SCOTUS has decided that while law enforcement has a obligation to protect the public, it isn't obligated to protect or defend any individual, or guarantee any individual's protection or safety. IOW, don't blame the police and don't try to sue them if they don't arrive until it is too late to do anything but take a report, or investigate your murder. In light of that, and because 20 minutes is indeed a long time, I don't expect the police to protect me - my self-defense is my own responsibility. And my right.

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Quote Originally Posted by Phil O'Keefe

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Depending on the time of day, it can be 20 minutes or more for us to see a sheriff's deputy arrive after a life or death emergency call to 911... and that's what I was told by THEM.


The SCOTUS has decided that while law enforcement has a obligation to protect the public, it isn't obligated to protect or defend any individual, or guarantee any individual's protection or safety. IOW, don't blame the police and don't try to sue them if they don't arrive until it is too late to do anything but take a report, or investigate your murder. In light of that, and because 20 minutes is indeed a long time, I don't expect the police to protect me - my self-defense is my own responsibility. And my right.

 

Yeah, they can take longer than that but 2 - 15 is the usual response time in my county. It is like that with us. We had a cardiac arrest near the county line and when we received the call we were in the truck and still took over 15 minutes to get there. We have 2 deputies to work the county and two officers to work the city. They can't be everywhere at once.
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Quote Originally Posted by conky

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I work in EMS and I know response times to a breaking and entering vary from 2 mnutes to well over 15 depending on call volume and where a unit is at during the time the call is dispatched. 2 minutes is a looooong time for a criminal to do whatever it is they intend on doing. I leave my wife and kid to go work a 24 hour shift in another county. I don't feel safe leaving them with nothing more than an ADT alarm while I am gone so I bought my wife a 9mm and taught her how to use it. I don't believe anyone who would break into a home while someone is there would have any intentions other than to cause harm. Not trying to sound all Billy Badass here and I don't know if you have kids or not, I DO, THREE but if anyone comes in my house uninvited while my family and I are home I will do what I need to do to keep them protected. Does that mean the first thing I wanna do is shoot them? No, but I would rather have a gun and not need it than need one and not have it. That's a typical response from gun owners, and for those who tend to live in fear, understandable. But the statistics are not in your favor, unfortunately. Hopefully none of us will be faced with being in this situation, with or without a gun.


Banning guns won't solve anything. Yes it will. We need to fix a ton of problems in this country and gun control should be at the bottom of the list. TELL THAT TO THE PARENTS OF NEWTOWN, Americans in general are lazy sensitive bitches who feel they are entitled to things they don't deserve. SOME ARE, SURE. BUT NOT MOST. YOU NEED TO MEET BETTER PEOPLE If something offends them instead of being tolerant and accepting they whine because someone damaged their fragile sensibilities.

 

We're better off sticking with pedals I think.
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Quote Originally Posted by Jisatsu

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Ammo is taxed pretty heavily in my state, and the federal government also taxes it. WA state is very expensive to live in, and it just seems ridiculous to add more taxes. Not more, just higher amount. Make it exhorbitant, as in most can't afford it. As far as who pays for it? Well obviously the family, or whoever else is legally liable for his mischief. Or Murder. It works for everyone else victimized in other ways, correct? There are legal routes in place currently for restitution. GREAT. So this 20 year old, who owns nothing and lives with his mother (whom he's killed by the way) - who's left? His father? The kid wasn't a minor. Sell his mother's home? I'm sure the 26 families would rather have their kids back, then be able to divide the huge sum of the sale of 1 house, after lawyer's take their cut.


As for the paper work route. I agree that there needs to be private sales registered. I don't believe you should be re-taxed on the same item. Fine. Maybe no tax to the seller, just the new buyer. Should you pay a tax and go through a dealer every time you sell lamp shades on craigslist? Nope. When was the last time a lamp shade killed someone? But I do agree private sales need to be tightened up. There should be mandatory forms to fill out for both parties, and they should be submitted to local governmet licensing agencies. When this happens, that government agency can do the checks on the sale. If it's not kosher, then we know who to go after at that point (seller or buyer). Agree.


Form 4473 is pretty black or white with it's questions. Basically it asks you to answer questions like "are you a felon? are you running from the law? have you been diagnosed with a mental illness?" Anyone can just put yes on that form and purchase a firearm if the NICS check comes back clear. The problem is the NICS check doesn't really go deep enough into your background. The 5 day wait is a joke, and due to HIPAA law, it's almost impossible to verify if someone has a mental health issue. People who violate this form need stiffer penalties, and there needs to be better enforcement of this form and requirement. 5 Days does seem way too short. What seems "reasonable" then, maybe a month or so?


What you don't know about the Tax stamp process for NFA, SBR, and Suppressor sales is that it's usually a 6-9month background check process. The ATF conducts a pretty exacting background check in this case.


If you are so fed up, then why don't you blame the shooter? He was not a legal gun owner. He didn't purchase any firearms under the system. If he had tried, he would have been denied. He stole them. Did he steal them? His mom went shooting with him apparently. Maybe he just "borrowed them" after he killed her. We'll never know I guess. Just based on that merit alone, he was a criminal. He had no criminal record at all until then. Doesn't make it any better/different, just a fact. He clearly had some deep dark mental health issues. I heard his mom was going to commit him - not sure if this has been verified or not. I'm not sure why on earth you would have guns in the house, especially an AR15 if you thought your son was a danger. But that's another issue too - guns and mental illness are not a good combination Then add in the horrible horrible acts he did, it's tradgic. He didn't buy a gun at a gun store. He didn't take advantage of private firearms sales. He didn't even use a fully automatic weapon. He used a pistol, which he was unable to purchase legally. Was it a pistol he used, or the AR15? I thought the later. End result was still awful. Be upset with criminals. Not with legal and responsible gun owners. Legal gun owners didn't do this. I never said they did. Hard to be fully upset with someone who clearly did such an irrational thing. Sure I'm upset with him. I'm also upset his mother gave him way too easy access to weapons knowing he "wasn't right".


I deal with criminals daily, and I've worked in all custody security levels from super max down to work camps. The ones who commit violent crimes, especially with firearms, are not normal people. They don't go into gun stores and buy guns legally. In most cases they can't because they usually have other crimes on their records before they move up into violent crimes. You don't see innocent people legally buying guns then shooting up places. True, but you do see legal owners making bad choices with guns sometimes. So where do these criminals get their guns from then? They come from somewhere. Santa doesn't bring them. Trace the money. NRA is a shill for gun manufacturers, they make millions together. They don't want to see the sales of guns being burdensome. Tell me where all of these illegal guns come from - I'd like a better picture.



The last AWB (assault weapons ban) was pioneered by a man who was shot with a little 6 shot revolver. It wasn't an AK or an AR, or a machinegun, it wasn't a bazooka, it wasn't a glock pistol with 600 bullets in it's 'clip.' It was a little .22lr revolver. The one gun that wasn't restricted after the AWB. I'm sure he felt much safer.

 

Good definition of irony. Still killed by a gun though, and not a lampshade biggrin.gif
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I DO, THREE


Then you know how protective us parents are.


That's a typical response from gun owners, and for those who tend to live in fear, understandable. But the statistics are not in your favor, unfortunately. Hopefully none of us will be faced with being in this situation, with or without a gun.


I am a gun owner. I grew up with them and learned how to respect and operate them. Have you read any stats on gun related crime in areas where there is a higher percentage of the population is carrying (concealed or open carry) a firearm? Gun related crimes are significantly lower.


Yes it will.


No it won't. So you band guns. Violent crime will still happen. Instead of shooting someone, they will use a baseball bat, pipe, a 2x4 or something to assault and probably kill someone. What are you going to do then? Ban baseball indoor plumbing and lumber? Criminals will still engage in criminal activity. That is the big problem. Leave guns alone and focus on fixing this. Stiffer penalties for violent crime, mental healthcare reform, ect.


TELL THAT TO THE PARENTS OF NEWTOWN


If I had a chance to talk to any of them I'm sure there would be other things to talk about besides gun control.


SOME ARE, SURE. BUT NOT MOST. YOU NEED TO MEET BETTER PEOPLE


Get a job working directly with the public. You will realize that there are way more people who are like this.


 

Quote Originally Posted by IRG

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We're better off sticking with pedals I think.

 

I think so too.
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Quote Originally Posted by conky

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I DO, THREE


Then you know how protective us parents are.


That's a typical response from gun owners, and for those who tend to live in fear, understandable. But the statistics are not in your favor, unfortunately. Hopefully none of us will be faced with being in this situation, with or without a gun.


I am a gun owner. I grew up with them and learned how to respect and operate them. Have you read any stats on gun related crime in areas where there is a higher percentage of the population is carrying (concealed or open carry) a firearm? Gun related crimes are significantly lower.


Yes it will.


No it won't. So you band guns. Violent crime will still happen. Instead of shooting someone, they will use a baseball bat, pipe, a 2x4 or something to assault and probably kill someone. What are you going to do then? Ban baseball indoor plumbing and lumber? Criminals will still engage in criminal activity. That is the big problem. Leave guns alone and focus on fixing this. Stiffer penalties for violent crime, mental healthcare reform, ect.


TELL THAT TO THE PARENTS OF NEWTOWN


If I had a chance to talk to any of them I'm sure there would be other things to talk about besides gun control.


SOME ARE, SURE. BUT NOT MOST. YOU NEED TO MEET BETTER PEOPLE


Get a job working directly with the public. You will realize that there are way more people who are like this.




I think so too.

 

Then let's stick to that. smile.gif
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Quote Originally Posted by IRG

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Then let's stick to that. smile.gif

 

Also, it's unfortunate the people you meet, it's still a small % of people you meet overall that are in this country. I get to meet a more "upstanding" segment of the population. They can be a pain in the ass at times, but their intentions on making society better, are almost always prevalent.
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Quote Originally Posted by The Lou-Dog

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Guns being illegal in Australia also means that people in low level crime do not have access to guns because to buy them Illegally would be far too expensive.


You don't see low level drug dealers and gang members shooting each other in Australia idn_smilie.gif

 


All good points. We have such an abundance of guns, the supply is more than the demand for the most part.


I think one thing most of us can agree on, is that crimes (violent) that include guns especially, should have very long prison terms. But whether that's truly a deterrent, I dunno. Death penalty hasn't really worked so...

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Quote Originally Posted by IRG

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I don't know about Australia's gun laws, I'm sure they're stricter than here, and I hope they are. I don't care what anyone thinks about my opinion on gun laws here in the US, but when I see this clip below, and every other tribute for these beautiful innocent children, rest assured I'm not going to be easy on gun enthusiasts any longer. I hate the NRA, and people who support them right now. I know many gun owners who are also upset with them, and rightly so.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/23/us/con...ace/index.html


Here's what I would do if given unlimited authority.


1. I would not ban the 2nd amendment (though I might be tempted, I know there are many good gun owners out there)

2. I would ban all assault type weapons, semi automatic rifles, machine guns, etc. Shotguns, single shot rifles would be excluded. Hand guns would be subject to a very strict licensing done by the FBI, and would need to be reviewed every so often.

2.5 No grandfather for these type of guns either. Turn them in, or go to jail. You should be reimbursed for turning in your guns though.

3. I would ban all clips for any weapon over 6 shots.

4. Any crime committed with a gun, would take that person to jail for a minimum of 10 years. Repeat offenders for life.

5. Any gun that is to be sold, whether new or used, must be done through an authorized dealer

6. Insurance must be maintained for every gun owner, like owning a car. Every gun must have insurance on an annual basis

7. Ammunition must also be taxed. Tax from ammunition is to be used to repay gun shooting victims fund

8. Schools that need/want to have armed guards, must be paid with from a tax of gun owners, on the sale of any legally purchased gun.

9. A mental health requirement must be met when purchasing a new/used gun. Every time.

9.5 If a person has had a mental health issue, their license to own a gun should be suspended, minimum 5 years.

10.. I'm sure there's more, but this is what I've been thinking about for the past week.


Note, I know there's a lot of peaceful gun owners out there. But there are a lot of gun owners, who have legally or illegally purchased guns that just do bad things with these guns, and the right to own guns, is less important to me, than the thousands of victims who've lost their life for no other reason than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's time to change our attitude on violence, and reducing the number and type of guns is an excellent place to start.

 

It's taken me well over a decade to move in this direction, from pretty much completely the opposite site of the spectrum, but now I'm pretty much with you. With these rules you can still defend your home/business with a shotgun or hunt with a rifle. People that "need" a handgun can still get one (and some people legitimately do). I just don't understand a situation where more than that is necessary. Yes guns are fun, firing them is a gas, but I no longer believe that that is a good enough reason to own a semi-auto anything. I know it would take a long time, but for everything else that's grandfathered in, the growing scarcity would ultimately create a price increase that would start putting them out of reach. This is the type of regulation that the SC has signaled it would uphold, whereas blanket bans it will strike down. No other right is absolute, not even the right to free speech.


The rest of the arguments against seem like strawmen to me: sure you can kill people with many things but guns are the quickest and easiest because, because they were designed to be the quickest/easiest. Explosives take training and forethought. And good luck taking on a platoon of 19 year olds who are pretty much cyborg warriors at this point--if you're worried about tyranny. And citywide gun bans will never be effective, when you can just drive ten minutes out of town to make a purchase.


I respect the opinions of those that disagree, but this is were I've landed. Peace.

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Quote Originally Posted by Jhideout

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Do you have any clue how many times daily a gun prevents a murder or rape or home invasion? Guns save lives all of the time...the media has an agenda so nobody ever hears about on the news.

 

Do you need a semi automatic gun though? Eliminating those guns is a priority, and a buy back/felony ownership path seems to be the best answer I have seen For that idn_smilie.gif
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Quote Originally Posted by conky

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We do this now. Its called Medicaid.

 

{censored}, that $5 a paycheck is really killing you huh? The cost to help stop the next plague to ravage the poor which will then be passed on through all citizens is keeping you from that cup of coffee fancy drink you want. Fine, send me your portion of that tax and when you get more financially secure let me know.
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Quote Originally Posted by Jhideout

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Do you have any clue how many times daily a gun prevents a murder or rape or home invasion? Guns save lives all of the time...the media has an agenda so nobody ever hears about on the news.

 

I don't know. I'm from Spain and live in Japan, and both countries have never needed armed guys at the schools, or an arsenal at home to get firearm violence waaaay lower than in the USA.


Don't you even consider 10-15.000 deaths a year a problem?

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Quote Originally Posted by soapbladder

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The rest of the arguments against seem like strawmen to me: sure you can kill people with many things but guns are the quickest and easiest because, because they were designed to be the quickest/easiest. Explosives take training and forethought.

 

Firearms may be quick and easy, but history has shown that explosives are the most effective- just ask Tim McVeigh or Mohamed Atta. When I was 12, my friends and I made pipe bombs from instructions in an Army field manual. The size of these bombs was limited only by our unwillingness to make anything bigger. Now with the internet, the information is easier than ever to find. Don't kid yourself- anyone who really wants to kill a lot of people will find a way. In a weird way, access to firearms may save lives- the Sandy Hook shooter engaged in planning for his killing- if he didn't have access to guns, he might have built a truck bomb and killed even more people.


 

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