So I Played a Herbert Today at GC

[maz_master]

Originally posted by vidnotlaw I just want to make sure that I am not being misunderstood: For me... sizzle does not equal buzz. I can't stand a buzzy sound. Sizzle is hard to explain. I would have to have a Herbert and another amp side by side and you would have to hear what I was calling sizzle. It's 'bite' and slaps you in the face. The only clip that I have heard on these forums (at least that come to mind righ tnow) that sounded like it had some great sizzle to it was a clip of a Splawn Quick Rod. Man that amps sounds like it just SMACKS you right in the face!! The Diezel sounded like it has a very compressed high end to me. Like a blanket over it. Other than that is was a SPECTACULAR amp!!! Take care, Vid

Does this recording lack "sizzle", by your definition? (Skip to about 15:10 to get channel 3 unscooped.)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6439601805213666365&q=herbert

[maz_master]

Originally posted by Rufus Leaking Those were my findings with the Herbert as well and why I sold it after just a few weeks. To my ears the amp lacks upper mid presence.... plenty of nice tight low end and smooth high end, but it lacked body. I kept turning up the presence, mids, treble and it still always felt like something was missing to me. Great amp and extremely well made though!

What speakers/cabs were you using? What PUPs? Maybe you guys just like bright amps and/or play dark PUPs?

Once again, does this amp (from 15:10 to end) sound like it lacks "body" and the proper amount and kind of high end? It sounds freakin' amazing to me. Of course, I play Strats too, so maybe that's the difference.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6439601805213666365&q=herbert

[Rufus Leaking]

Originally posted by maz_master What speakers/cabs were you using? What PUPs? Maybe you guys just like bright amps and/or play dark PUPs? Once again, does this amp (from 15:10 to end) sound like it lacks "body" and the proper amount and kind of high end? It sounds freakin' amazing to me. Of course, I play Strats too, so maybe that's the difference. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6439601805213666365&q=herbert

The clips of the Herbert sounded great to me too, which is why I bought the amp. That Marc Seal vid is great and Fly Angus's clip on the Diezel site is one of my all time favorite amp clips. In person it was a different story for me - it just didn't cut it.

I'm sure it comes down to an individual style thing... obviously it works for a lot of people, not so for others... just like all amps out there.

If. once you play it for yourself you find it's the end-all for you.. that's awesome! but don't make it sound like anyone who doesn't like the Herbert is inexperienced or has tin ears... we all have different styles, different needs etc..

BYW - add Ty Tabor to the list of those who slay with a Recto..

[Bumble]

Originally posted by vidnotlaw I just want to make sure that I am not being misunderstood: For me... sizzle does not equal buzz. I can't stand a buzzy sound. Sizzle is hard to explain. I would have to have a Herbert and another amp side by side and you would have to hear what I was calling sizzle. It's 'bite' and slaps you in the face. The only clip that I have heard on these forums (at least that come to mind righ tnow) that sounded like it had some great sizzle to it was a clip of a Splawn Quick Rod. Man that amps sounds like it just SMACKS you right in the face!! The Diezel sounded like it has a very compressed high end to me. Like a blanket over it. Other than that is was a SPECTACULAR amp!!! Take care, Vid

I know what you're on about, and yes I do hear that special magic in the Splawn Quick Rod. Only amps that come close are some modded 2203/2204's imho, like the FJA modded clip posted recently. I think what we are talking about is an effect of overtone complexity in the mids/highs department.

[maz_master]

Originally posted by Rufus Leaking The clips of the Herbert sounded great to me too, which is why I bought the amp. That Marc Seal vid is great and Fly Angus's clip on the Diezel site is one of my all time favorite amp clips. In person it was a different story for me - it just didn't cut it. I'm sure it comes down to an individual style thing... obviously it works for a lot of people, not so for others... just like all amps out there. If. once you play it for yourself you find it's the end-all for you.. that's awesome! but don't make it sound like anyone who doesn't like the Herbert is inexperienced or has tin ears... we all have different styles, different needs etc.. BYW - add Ty Tabor to the list of those who slay with a Recto..

Well, fair enough. Actually, I believe I initially jumped into this thread when people started bashing Diezel build quality without providing any concrete examples.

God, I hope I don't plug into one now and not like it!!!

[vidnotlaw]

Originally posted by maz_master What speakers/cabs were you using? What PUPs? Maybe you guys just like bright amps and/or play dark PUPs? Once again, does this amp (from 15:10 to end) sound like it lacks "body" and the proper amount and kind of high end? It sounds freakin' amazing to me. Of course, I play Strats too, so maybe that's the difference. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6439601805213666365&q=herbert

Yes, that specific spot (as well as most of the video) that your talking about (about 15:10 Minutes in) sounds good, but still lacks 'bite'! It sounds amazingly smooth and tight, but still lacks 'bite'. That guy is a great player too.

Just my opinion... which should mean nothing to other peoples ears! If other people like that then I have no problem with that. As I said it sounds great, but for me it lacks a little 'bite/sizzle'.

I had tried several different guitar/pickup cabinet combinations with the Herbert I had. But my main guitar(s) use Seymour Duncans (Jb/Jazz), and that is was I mainly using.

As I stated before, and I think we can agree, THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS HOW IT SOUNDS TO YOU!! If that amps make you want to 'rock out ' more and you love the sound of it, that is great. It doesn't mean it will have that affect on everybody though.

Take care,

Vid

[Rufus Leaking]

Originally posted by maz_master Well, fair enough. Actually, I believe I initially jumped into this thread when people started bashing Diezel build quality without providing any concrete examples. God, I hope I don't plug into one now and not like it!!!

I'm sure you'll love it... but just to give The Game some back up here, you really should look into Mako (who he was comparing Diezel to) and their build philosophy... no PCB mounted sockets here;

http://www.makoamplification.com/about_philosophy.html

[vidnotlaw]

Originally posted by Rufus Leaking I'm sure you'll love it... but just to give The Game some back up here, you really should look into Mako (who he was comparing Diezel to) and their build philosophy... no PCB mounted sockets here; http://www.makoamplification.com/about_philosophy.html

I would LOVE to hear a Mako Custom 100 in person!! I have been dying to hear one for a long time now! How do you think the follwoing 3 amps would compare:

VHT UL
Splawn Quick Rod
Mako Custom 100

I would love to sit with those three amps for a couple of days and tweak 'em. Actaully I already own the VHT, so I would just need the Splawn and the Mako!!

Take care,

Vid

[maz_master]

Originally posted by vidnotlaw Yes, that specific spot (as well as most of the video) that your talking about (about 15:10 Minutes in) sounds good, but still lacks 'bite'! It sounds amazingly smooth and tight, but still lacks 'bite'. That guy is a great player too. Just my opinion... which should mean nothing to other peoples ears! If other people like that then I have no problem with that. As I said it sounds great, but for me it lacks a little 'bite/sizzle'. I had tried several different guitar/pickup cabinet combinations with the Herbert I had. But my main guitar(s) use Seymour Duncans (Jb/Jazz), and that is was I mainly using. As I stated before, and I think we can agree, THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS HOW IT SOUNDS TO YOU!! If that amps make you want to 'rock out ' more and you love the sound of it, that is great. It doesn't mean it will have that affect on everybody though. Take care, Vid

Well, I completely understand now. This is totally and completely a personal preference issue! I don't think that lead tone lacks anything. It's one of several "perfect" lead tone flavors, for my tastes. If it sounds anything like that with my rig, I'll have to change my trousers after each use!

But, nobody can argue with the fact that you just don't like it. We're both referencing the same clip but hearing it completely differently. And, that's cool. That's what makes the world go round!

So, I guess all I'm saying in regards to Rectos is that I could not get those kinds of tones out of them and I haven't heard others get those kinds of tones out of them.

[maz_master]

Originally posted by Rufus Leaking I'm sure you'll love it... but just to give The Game some back up here, you really should look into Mako (who he was comparing Diezel to) and their build philosophy... no PCB mounted sockets here; http://www.makoamplification.com/about_philosophy.html

I'm pretty familiar with Mako. I had one on order a couple years ago and chatted with Andrew Solner quite a bit. But, I canned my order when he kept slipping the delivery date out several months at a time. I can wait a few months for this boutique stuff, but not over a year! And, then I actually heard some clips and was not overly impressed. It didn't sound like it was described at all. HOWEVER, his build quality is outrageous! Absolutely impeccable and indestructible!

As for build quality in general, I currently own the following stuff (the FD2s have been replaced by 3 OCDs) and have been through much before that, so I've seen a LOT of PTP and high quality PCB. When you're carting this stuff around a lot to gigs, that build quality really makes a difference! But, if it doesn't sound goood to you, then it's worthless...that's for sure!

[thegame]

Originally posted by maz_master Well, fair enough. Actually, I believe I initially jumped into this thread when people started bashing Diezel build quality without providing any concrete examples. God, I hope I don't plug into one now and not like it!!!

Quote me where I "bashed" Diezel build quality....

[thegame]

Originally posted by maz_master I'm pretty familiar with Mako. I had one on order a couple years ago and chatted with Andrew Solner quite a bit. HOWEVER, his build quality is outrageous! Absolutely impeccable and indestructible!

So you ordered a Mako but ultimately never got one? Have you seen one in person then?

From your description of the Mako, are you admitting the build quality of Mako is somewhat higher than Diezel?

[Snider]

Originally posted by Rufus Leaking Those were my findings with the Herbert as well and why I sold it after just a few weeks. To my ears the amp lacks upper mid presence.... plenty of nice tight low end and smooth high end, but it lacked body. I kept turning up the presence, mids, treble and it still always felt like something was missing to me. Great amp and extremely well made though!

Totally agree. The full frequency is not there. It took me three tries over more than a year and I was a huge advocate but in the end- no cut, little vibe.

If the amp was as good or better than channel 3 of the VH4 you would see more pro's using them. The Herbert is a good amp and has some amazing features and I would go as far to say it is the most versatile bedroom amp ever made as that is what I think it's amazing at, but in a band setting the Einstein and even better Channel 3 of the VH4 are far beyond Herbie. Ch 3 in VH4-That is a great tone to me.

[thegame]

Originally posted by Wizard of Ozz +1 That and downtuned to A flat 7 string numetal slop. They really can do much more.

Curious; are all bands who tune down very low crap in your opinion?

What about Nevermore or Cannibal Corpse? Like them or not, they both tune down super low (B flat) yet both bands have some of the tightest guitarists in metal EVER.

[thegame]

Originally posted by Snider Totally agree. The full frequency is not there. It took me three tries over more than a year and I was a huge advocate but in the end- no cut, little vibe. If the amp was as good or better than channel 3 of the VH4 you would see more pro's using them. The Herbert is a good amp and has some amazing features and I would go as far to say it is the most versatile bedroom amp ever made as that is what I think it's amazing at, but in a band setting the Einstein and even better Channel 3 of the VH4 are far beyond Herbie. Ch 3 in VH4-That is a great tone to me.

I havn't even started to comment on the SOUND of the Herbert so far in this thread but I'll say I agree 100% with you on that.

[maz_master]

Originally posted by thegame Quote me where I "bashed" Diezel build quality....

You compared it to Mesa.

[thegame]

Originally posted by maz_master I haven't heard any pro players get good tone from a Recto. That amp has brainwashed a whole generation of young players into thinking good tone is gained out fuzzy mush.

Hate the band, but Reb Beach from winger got a great Recto sound on the "Pull" CD.

Also Chris Haskett (sp?) from Henry Rollins band had amazing tones from his Rack-ti-fiers. Check out Woodstock 94. His tone crushed Metallica's!!!

[thegame]

Originally posted by maz_master You compared it to Mesa.

Show me. Quote to your hearts content.

[thegame]

Originally posted by Rufus Leaking I'm sure you'll love it... but just to give The Game some back up here, you really should look into Mako (who he was comparing Diezel to) and their build philosophy... no PCB mounted sockets here; http://www.makoamplification.com/about_philosophy.html

Thank you. At the risk of offending the Diezel lovers out there again, I'll say the Herbert has GREAT build quality.....

....but if you examine the Mako philosophy you'll realize that Mako's quality is even GREATER!

Honestly, I am begging the Diezel lovers to show me how that statement is slanderous to Diezel???

I don't get it?

[maz_master]

Originally posted by thegame So you ordered a Mako but ultimately never got one? Have you seen one in person then? From your description of the Mako, are you admitting the build quality of Mako is somewhat higher than Diezel?

Only saw pics and descriptions of the Mako and Herbert. Without knowing more detail regarding the mounting structure and thickness of the Herbert PCB (to support PCB-mounted power tubes), it's hard to compare the two. They can easily be equally hardy. Build quality is more than PTP layout and chassis-mounted tubes.

For example, my first Shiva was built like a tank and generally used all of the techniques recognized as contributing to low failure rate in the field. However, the power tubes used extremely high plate voltages for EL34s/6L6s (around 520V) and were biased at near the max idle plate dissipation (Class AB should not run much beyond 60-70%). Yet, when I found other design problems in the amp (discussed below), Reinhold admitted to me that the hot bias and high voltage resulted in a lot of failures in the field. So, on future Shivas (one of which I owned), they reduced both (which also affected the tone, IMO). You can't see plate voltages and idle currents in a picture, so how can you compare that parameter?

Another example of poor quality on the early Shivas was the low relay coil current-limiting resistor which resulted in burned out channel and boost switching relay coils. Can't see that in a picture either.

Another example of poor quality on the early Shivas was the excessively low resistance of the current limiting resistors in series with the LEDs in the footswitch. They eventually caused the LEDs to burn out or become intermittent, thus opening the circuit and causing channel switching oscillation during gigs!!! This happened to me at two packed gigs! Bogner had no clue why this was happening. They initially denied it completely but after I spent the better part of a weekend finding that problem and offering them a circuit (which required simultaneous equations to solve) which properly sized the current limiting resistors for both the boost and gain LEDs, Reinhold called me at home, thanked me for finding the problem and then finally admitted they were seeing a lot of these failures in the field. First of all, the LEDs should not be in the switching path, but if they are, they should be properly limited for current! Bogner did neither. Can't see that kind of thing in a picture either.

So, it's impossible to simply look at pics of the Herbert and Mako and predict which will be more reliable on the road! There's just too much else going on with component values and circuit architecture. An improperly sized resistor in a PTP MIL-SPEC layout will fail just as readily as one in a cheap PCB circuit! Yes, there are some general things to look for in a pic (like chassis-mounted power tubes, pots, switches, jacks, etc), but it only tells part of the story.

But, knowing the reps of both Andrew and Peter, I'd bet my next paycheck that both products are equally road-worthy.

[J.B.]

Originally posted by maz_master Only saw pics and descriptions of the Mako and Herbert. Without knowing more detail regarding the mounting structure and thickness of the Herbert PCB (to support PCB-mounted power tubes), it's hard to compare the two. They can easily be equally hardy. Build quality is more than PTP layout and chassis-mounted tubes. For example, my first Shiva was built like a tank and generally used all of the techniques recognized as contributing to low failure rate in the field. However, the power tubes used extremely high plate voltages for EL34s/6L6s (around 520V) and were biased at near the max idle plate dissipation (Class AB should not run much beyond 60-70%). Yet, when I found other design problems in the amp (discussed below), Reinhold admitted to me that the hot bias and high voltage resulted in a lot of failures in the field. So, on future Shivas (one of which I owned), they reduced both (which also affected the tone, IMO). You can't see plate voltages and idle currents in a picture, so how can you compare that parameter? Another example of poor quality on the early Shivas was the low relay coil current-limiting resistor which resulted in burned out channel and boost switching relay coils. Can't see that in a picture either. Another example of poor quality on the early Shivas was the excessively low resistance of the current limiting resistors in series with the LEDs in the footswitch. They eventually caused the LEDs to burn out or become intermittent, thus opening the circuit and causing channel switching oscillation during gigs!!! This happened to me at two packed gigs! Bogner had no clue why this was happening. They initially denied it completely but after I spent the better part of a weekend finding that problem and offering them a circuit (which required simultaneous equations to solve) which properly sized the current limiting resistors for both the boost and gain LEDs, Reinhold called me at home, thanked me for finding the problem and then finally admitted they were seeing a lot of these failures in the field. First of all, the LEDs should not be in the switching path, but if they are, they should be properly limited for current! Bogner did neither. Can't see that kind of thing in a picture either. So, it's impossible to simply look at pics of the Herbert and Mako and predict which will be more reliable on the road! There's just too much else going on with component values and circuit architecture. An improperly sized resistor in a PTP MIL-SPEC layout will fail just as readily as one in a cheap PCB circuit! Yes, there are some general things to look for in a pic (like chassis-mounted power tubes, pots, switches, jacks, etc), but it only tells part of the story. But, knowing the reps of both Andrew and Peter, I'd bet my next paycheck that both products are equally road-worthy.

Wow, excellent post.

[maz_master]

Originally posted by Snider Totally agree. The full frequency is not there. It took me three tries over more than a year and I was a huge advocate but in the end- no cut, little vibe. If the amp was as good or better than channel 3 of the VH4 you would see more pro's using them. The Herbert is a good amp and has some amazing features and I would go as far to say it is the most versatile bedroom amp ever made as that is what I think it's amazing at, but in a band setting the Einstein and even better Channel 3 of the VH4 are far beyond Herbie. Ch 3 in VH4-That is a great tone to me.

Yeah, but you like the Two-Rock stuff better than the Fuchs, which I can't understand at all, except for personal preference differences. I just listened to some Custom Reverb Signature clips and they sound really, really bad, IMO, not even remotely close in tonal quality to the Fuchs. So, maybe you're hearing the same kind of things with the Herbert versus the Einstein/VH4.

[J.B.]

And isn't Mako going to boards now anyway?

[Evoken13]

Interesting to know that a GC had a DIEZEL in stock.....
kind of a rotten fate IMHO....

Anyway, I think the Diezel Herbert is the best amp i've played for heavy music hands down. We rented one from Ultra Sound/NYC to record guitar tracks for our last album & I thought it was absolutely SICK. The only beef I had (and a very small one at that)was the 3rd channel did not seem too much different gain wise than channel 2 maxed out. Maybe a bit edgier (kinda like the VHT UL w/edge button engaged for leads)but that could've very well been because it was the 1st version of the head (we're talking early '04). The clean channel was excellent for a high gain amp; took effects beautifully. Overall it was very well built and weighed about a 1/2 ton.

I have a VHT Pittbull UL right now as well as own/extensively played alot of other amps: Mesa Dual & Triple Rec; Marshall JCM800, Peavey XXX & 5150, Ampeg VH140CH (best SS head ever), & a VH4.....the VHT comes the closest but still.....as much as I love that head I gotta say the Herbert owns.

It really is all a matter of it being worth the 4G's....In my book it is worth a decent price but unfortunately I cannot afford it & will be stuck renting it once more come time I need it again unless I win the lottery.

[thegame]

Originally posted by steve10358 Chassis flex? Have you even PLAYED a diezel?? It's got thick ass aluminum w/ reinforced ends... not to mention the 1/4" of faceplate on both sides- there is ZERO chassis flex. And I am still waiting for what you didnt like about the build quality of the Diezel. You still havent given an example of a failure, or even a design flaw.

Have I played a Diezel amp? I've bought, played, jammed with, recorded, and sold a Diezel amp for your information. Here's the deal; I'm not saying the Diezel chassis is particularly weak, I'm saying that when moderate force is applied to the middle of it (in the back) the chassis moves in and out a bit. Mine did, thats for {censored}ing sure. What does that have to do with the operation of the amp? Nothing! But here's the point; lets say you (or a roadie who doesn't give a {censored}) drops it and it lands on a hard surface of some sort, like stairs or the edge of a cabinet. That spot is going to dent and push the componets around inside!

The point of bringing Mako and Wizard into the equation regarding build quality is that you'd have to pound on the chassis with a {censored}ing hammer to make the slightest indentation on the chassis of those amps.

A friend of mine accidently dropped his Wizard down a 13 stair flight of stairs and that amp bounced 3 or 4 times on the way down and landed hard on concrete. The wooden headshell was damaged but the chassis was unscathed. Afterwords when plugged in the Wizard performed perfectly. Would a Diezel still work after being put through that? Maybe, maybe not, but I think the chances of a Diezel working perfectly after such an accident (or other blatant abuse) would be less than that of a Wizard or Mako.