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Dan Krisher RUS

Three New Jupiter 80 Videos from Dan Krisher (Roland US)

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Here are three new Jupiter 80 videos I did on the following topics. I hope they are helpful to new owners of the JP-80. These are also up on http://www.youtube.com/user/RUSProductSupport

 

1) Editing & Creating Analog Synth Sounds:

(Discusses the SuperNATURAL analog synth engine.)

 

2) 256 Registrations & Thousands of Live Sets:

(This is a short summary of how data is organized in the Jupiter 80.)

 

3) Saving SuperNATURAL Acoustic Tones:

(Sort of a soft rebuttal about some of the info presented in the recent SOS review.)

 

The above are unofficial videos I do on my own. To see lots of great, "official" video tutorials on the JP-80, go to the "Jupiter 80 Tutorial Series" also found here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/RUSProductSupport

 

If you want to get more info on what I do please friend me on: http://www.facebook.com/DanKrisher or go to Facebook and "Like" Roland US where I am also an administrator and post regularly there: http://www.facebook.com/RolandCorpUS

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Hmm, I watched your Editing & Creating Analog Synth Sounds video and I don't think it "Discusses the SuperNATURAL analog synth engine". I was expecting to see and hear the possibilities of the synth engine, not how one can scroll among the presets. To me a useless video, just talk and verly little examples of the sounds. Next time use a small mixer, plug your mic and the JP80 into it to allow the JP80 sounds to be recorded directly and not using the mic of the videocam.

 

The more I see of the JP80, the more confused I get. The hierarchy of the presets and patches on the JP80 makes the JX10 seem like a dream (and that one is bad).

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The more I see of the JP80, the more confused I get. The hierarchy of the presets and patches on the JP80 makes the JX10 seem like a dream (and that one is bad).

 

Well, I found I had to wrap my head around a new architecture, which threw me at first. Part of dealing with the Jupiter-80 is to forget what you already thought you knew about synthesis, because it sure seems to me the Jupiter-80 was designed more of less from the ground up rather than being a repackaging.

 

Here's the short form as I understand it, I'm sure Dan Krisher will correct me if I'm wrong. The basic element is a Tone, which consists of three Partials (essentially mini-synths with waveform selection, LFOs, and filtering). Layering up to four Tones creates a Live Set, which is your basic "I'm going to call up a sound and play live" kind of patch. Finally, the Registration level incorporates four Parts

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Well, I found I had to wrap my head around a new architecture, which threw me at first. Part of dealing with the Jupiter-80 is to forget what you already thought you knew about synthesis, because it sure seems to me the Jupiter-80 was designed more of less from the ground up rather than being a repackaging.

 

Here's the short form as I understand it, I'm sure Dan Krisher will correct me if I'm wrong. The basic element is a Tone, which consists of three Partials (essentially mini-synths with waveform selection, LFOs, and filtering). Layering up to four Tones creates a Live Set, which is your basic "I'm going to call up a sound and play live" kind of patch. Finally, the Registration level incorporates four Parts

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3) Saving SuperNATURAL Acoustic Tones:

http://youtu.be/6VyF1aCTF0Q

(Sort of a soft rebuttal about some of the info presented in the recent SOS review.)

 

I don't know what is to rebut there in the recent SOS review?! The reviewer clearly states that there is no (separate) user memory for edited acoustic tones. Instead, one has to save the edits within a live set. And now, you make a video about this and explain the same as the reviewer did in his text.

 

Now, since the JP80 has a percussion and solo part, the question would be, how can I assure that my favorite tone (for example the acoustic piano) will always sound the same as I want it if I use that tone for the percussion or solo part? If the live set saves the controller settings, does it means that I'll have to program the single tones over and over again within a registration when I use them for the solo/percussion part? If that is the case, than the SOS reviewer has a good point in stating that there is no separate user memory for saving changes on single tones.

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So your saying it's pretty much a "long haul synth." In that it will take a good amount of time to get used to and master?


I should hope so given the price point and the economy has synth purchases going a bit slow.

 

Well, I'm still wrapping my head around it :), so I don't feel confident yet about making predictions on how it will hold up over time. But AFAIC it's definitely a live performance synth that happens to make unique sounds and therefore, makes it useful in the studio as well. However it is NOT a workstation, so in the studio, you need to do "old school"-style recording where you record a part into a track, either via the USB audio interface, S/PDIF, or the audio outs.

 

As to Sani's point, I'm a) not surprised you can't save individual acoustic tones but have to edit them as part of a live set, and b) I wish you could. But I think it's more like the situation with conventional synths where you can't do core edits of ROM sounds, you always have to edit as part of a patch.

 

I guess I need to see if it's possible to copy individual tones so you could save a live set with the modifications you want, but then copy only the tone with the edits. There's still much for me to learn here.

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Here are three new Jupiter 80 videos I did on the following topics. I hope they are helpful to new owners of the JP-80. These are also up on
http://www.youtube.com/user/RUSProductSupport


1) Editing & Creating Analog Synth Sounds:

http://youtu.be/pesMtlsQS4A

(Discusses the SuperNATURAL analog synth engine.)

 

I've only watched the first of these videos. I have a couple of questions.

 

1) You say that the Jupiter 80 has "1900 synth tones". What are "synth tones"? Are these samples? Are any of the "synth tones" modeled waveforms (as in the Access Virus or Nord Stage 2, etc.)?

 

2) You say that the the Tone Blender is "much, much more powerful" than the morph function on a Nord. Since the Nord's morph function can control essentially every parameter on the synth, I wonder how the Tone Blender could be any more powerful. Does it allow non-linear scaling of individual parameters across the range of a control surface or something? (As a side note: the real beauty of the Nord's morph function isn't its "power", it's how incredibly easy it is to use -- go into morph assign mode and you can grab any knob on the synth (or virtual organ drawbar on the Stage) and turn it, and it assigns that parameter to the morph. From the screenshot, the JP80 looks considerably less ergonomic in this regard.)

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...I'm sure Dan Krisher will correct me if I'm wrong. The basic element is a Tone, which consists of three Partials (essentially mini-synths with waveform selection, LFOs, and filtering). Layering up to four Tones creates a Live Set, which is your basic "I'm going to call up a sound and play live" kind of patch. Finally, the Registration level incorporates four Parts

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Well actually, I need to correct myself. I just found out you can switch the Percussion Tone into being a second Solo Tone instead. So that means you can actually stack
ten
tones, not nine as stated in the manual.

 

Here is a real basic question about these tones, partials, whatever we are calling the most rudimentary structure of the synthesis in this keyboard.

 

If a tone consists of 3 partials, does each partial have its own envelope, filter, and LFO? Or are these "partials" really oscillators, and all three share the same single envelope, filter, etc.? If each has its own envelope and filter, is there any way to route multiple oscillators through the same filter and envelope, as one. (As one would do with any classic analog multi-oscillator synthesizer). Or does each oscillator always have its own filter et. al.? If the latter is the case, is there any way to set, for example, frequency and resonance simultaneously (with one knob turn) for multiple filters? Is there any way to copy and paste complete filter/envelope/LFO settings between partials in order to approximate the effect of having multiple oscillators feeding the same filter, without having to manually go into every partial page and twiddle in the exact same settings for each partial's filter?

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As to Sani's point, I'm a) not surprised you can't save individual acoustic tones but have to edit them as part of a live set, and b) I wish you could. But I think it's more like the situation with conventional synths where you can't do core edits of ROM sounds, you always have to edit as part of a patch.

 

Just to make it clear, the SOS reviewer made the point. Not me.

And your b) point is not quite clear to me. On a conventional synth you edit your sound and save it as a patch/program. The tone on the jp80 is actually a patch. It contains all the core elements of a sound, be it the supernatural acoustic piano or the synth sounds. A tone on the jp80 is not comparable to a multisample or a single oscillator setting. It's a finished ready to play sound. And if you look at the first video here (Editing and creating analog synth sounds), somewhere at the end you see that Dan performs a saving on the synth sound and the keyboard shows "Tone Write". So it seems that there is a separate possibility to write synth tones to memory, but not for acoustic ones. Dan Krisher unfortunately uses terms which are not part of the jp80 structure (there is no patch on the jp80) and it's again unnecessary confusing.

Infact, the reviewer did a more precise job in the review than Dan Krisher (Roland US) in his videos. The reviewer states clearly that you can save acoustic tones only as part of the live set and he thinks that the reason could be the fact that for the acoustic tones there are in fact very few parameters. For a lot of sounds, there is just one single parameter how you can change the sound character for certain SN acoustic tones.

 

Besides that, I'm quite confused about the overall structure of this keyboard. I know that some people just want to turn it on and play the sounds. But others also do think about what they can do with all the sounds at a later moment and depending on their specific needs or tasks.

And here we have the weird situation that in the live set where you can combine four tones (patches) each patch still has just one single insert effect. It means, no tone wheel organ simulation with an overdrive effect. I don't really need physical drawbars live on stage for the kind of music that I play, but if there is something called "supernatural" organ, I'd expect at least to have the proper effects as a choice. It's simply quite strange IMHO when a keyboard emulates a violin better than a hammond organ. There are 4 insert effects in the live set and only Roland knows why they prevent us to use them in a serial chain. Whatever they may bring up as an excuse, in my eyes they simply have not done their homework.

On the other side, the solo/percussion part is hardwired to compressor, eq and delay! Why can't the user select any three effects from the list of available effects? That would at least allow the user to create the "right" effects for the solo and/or percussion part. If I use a piano tone as part of the live setup, I may use the sympathetic resonance effect, but it doesn't have a eq. So I can't adjust the overall sound of the piano eq wise as part of the live set. If I use the piano tone as solo part, I don't have sympathetic resonance, but I have eq, comp and delay?!

 

And finally the aux effect. It's just one single reverb. Not the usual chorus/reverb combo you find on those keyboards that limit you to the use of these two types of effects.

Each of the two live sets has its own, separate aux reverb and the solo/percussion part share a third reverb. Others may disagree with me but I absolutely don't see the point in having three separate reverbs. The reverb as an aux effect is the final touch to put the whole complex sound creation into a common acoustic space. It would be logical to me to have one single reverb that is shared between all parts and you simply adjust the dry/wet mix for each single part. Why would I want to put one part into a cathedral reverb and another into a bathroom, all in the same multitimbral setup? As it's now, if you want to have the same reverb type for the whole registration, you have to edit three separate reverbs, making them sound identical. That's what I want most of the time. For more complex reverb settings, one could always use a reverb as an insert effect. There is no possibility to route all the parts into the same reverb if you want to.

 

That is one part where the jp80 fails completely from my user perspective. Not even with the manual things become clear, the posted youtube clips are rather confusing and focusing on completely wrong parts comparing the jp80 to other products or correcting "misinformation" where actually nothing is to correct, instead of explaining the basics in a way that a user can really understand what is actually there and why it is done in the way it's done. Rolands communication on that part always was very weak and I don't really expect either from Dan nor from any other Roland employee to jump in and explains things better.

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@ SN tone saving. Dan's demo was very clear...

 

I have not seen the SOS review so I will not pass any comment on that.

 

I quite like the way the Jupiter 80 works as it is wholistic to save as a live set... IE everything and the kitchen sink is saved..

 

On the old ROMplers, some could save @ PCM element level and up, so they are built around a different workflow. I like the idea of the sound being ready and top level controls for tone tweaks.

 

Equally I like the idea of a synthy modeling synth that can go beyond real in to synthetic tones. This thing apart from the VA section is not about that.. What does matter is the sound and it seems to have a really beefy sound that is growing on me..

 

Sometimes I listen to other synth demo's (no names mentioned) and regardless of the patch there is THAT sound and it is SAME SAME SAME.... no balls no delivery just bland... why bother if it does not sound dynamic...

 

:wave:

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I am by no means a Roland fan boy, but seriously how many of you have actually used one for several hours or more at least ?

 

I got to spend a good 5 hours with one the other day and the sound quality is universally superb, especially on the hybrid synthetic/modelled sound patches.

The articulation and voice phrasing is stunning to say the least, especially on things like trumpet, flugelhorn, flute, strings and hybrid combinations. The filter is markedly digital but can have some nice Oberheim like brassy honk where needed.

Beautifully constructed, with a solid feel and fantastic keybed I might add.

Having tried the Motif XS, Korg M3 and FantomG, I'd easily take this over the rest and just track played performances into a daw. Easily their best keyboard since the V-Synth by a country mile and really shouldn't be looked at as either a bog standard rompler or va, as the hybrid patches on this thing are IMHO really where it's at. And what it does it does damn well.

Just for the record my gear list is a mixed bag - Electribe EMX & ESX, Korg Prophecy, Alesis QS8.1 (with Vintage Keys and Vintage Synth Q cards), Akai MPC2500, Kurzweil K1000PX, Roland S550Rack, Roland D550 rack (with several voice cards) and a JD990 Expanded and an E-Mu UltraProteus .

My only daw and virtual instruments I use are the Reason Record Duo ( 1.5/5.0) and a 3rd party audio editor.

The only other synth I have enjoyed this much in years from an outright playing view point was the Korg Oasys ( had a deal on one this year for a steal but do not have the studio space ).

Really we would have killed for digital synths of this calibre several years ago and it is a synth as opposed to a workstation. It certainly would NOT replace anything I have (the Oasys could have replaced most of it IMHO) but it would definitely complement and enhance my sonic palette immeasurably.

 

Really quite a nice keyboard IMHO.

Superb sound.

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I am by no means a Roland fan boy, but seriously how many of you have actually used one for several hours or more at least ?


I got to spend a good 5 hours with one the other day and the sound quality is universally superb, especially on the hybrid synthetic/modelled sound patches.

The articulation and voice phrasing is stunning to say the least, especially on things like trumpet, flugelhorn, flute, strings and hybrid combinations. The filter is markedly digital but can have some nice Oberheim like brassy honk where needed.

 

We're not talking about how it sounds but what the keyboard can do and whether it delivers what a live performer may need or not. I don't need to spend any time in front of the keyboard to find out what it can and what it cannot do.

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But the question is, what is saved and where when you use a tone for the percussion/solo part? It's clear that you can save controller settings for a SN acoustic sound as part of a live set, but where are the controller settings saved if you want to use that same acoustic sound for the solo part? The solo/percussion part doesn't use live sets. Does it mean that I have to program the controller settings for the solo/percussion part as part of the registration? That would mean that you have to do the same work over and over again, whenever you create a new registration and use a tone for those two parts.




We're not talking about how it sounds but what the keyboard can do and whether it delivers what a live performer may need or not. I don't need to spend any time in front of the keyboard to find out what it can and what it cannot do.

 

 

I would personally disagree, that said you're entitled to that opinion. It is however clearly geared toward being a performance keyboard with highly nuanced expression and articulation. On that front it certainly does not disappoint. If i might just add I don't think any of the video's bar perhaps the one by Howard Jones, really doing it justice (for what it's worth).

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It is however clearly geared toward being a performance keyboard with highly nuanced expression and articulation. On that front it certainly does not disappoint.

 

I never said that the jp80 doesn't sound great. But having a highly expressive sound on the stage is not all a keyboarder needs. I have my concerns about the effect structure because that is all I get live on stage from that keyboard. In that part for example, an SN organ with rotary and overdrive is not possible. It may not be a problem for you in your studio because you may add any number of inserts afterward in your software DAW or simply use anything else from your equipment, but on stage, you get what the keyboard offers you. If it's your only keyboard, it can be quite tricky. And as an experienced keyboard user, you may find the information about things that are important to you simply in the manual. That's why I think that playing the keyboard is not really necessary to get a picture about what it can or can't do. A greatly expressive trumpet or erhu violin will not make it up for the lack of some pretty much standard effect chains which are not possible on that keyboard. At least, not for me.

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But the question is, what is saved and where when you use a tone for the percussion/solo part? It's clear that you can save controller settings for a SN acoustic sound as part of a live set, but where are the controller settings saved if you want to use that same acoustic sound for the solo part? The solo/percussion part doesn't use live sets. Does it mean that I have to program the controller settings for the solo/percussion part as part of the registration? That would mean that you have to do the same work over and over again, whenever you create a new registration and use a tone for those two parts.


 

It is a different work flow. It is not like having a workstation or hardware sampler/sequencer where you can have libraries of patches and effects to mix and match on midi channels in the sequence.

 

I am not sure what happens on the Solo Perc slots when saving as registrations for SN sounds etc however I understand why they have done it different given as Dan says, there is more to a sound than the SN and effects, the articulations and use on the keyboard factor into the structure of a registration.

 

It will be interesting if Roland incorporate this into a WorkStation with suitable workflow, if so that future product may suit you better...

 

Having said that where you can save in live sets, you have 1000's of slots. No big deal if you want some SN variations programmed and set up ready for copying to other areas as it seems to suggest you can... This seems to be what you want...

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A different workflow, yes. Inferior to those on a regular workstation, IMHO. Inability to actually NAME your USB backup right on the board, and the need to use a computer to do that is downright ridiculous. Not to mention that you can only load ONE backup from a single stick. Lame. Roland needs to learn how to do a proper file system.

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Well actually, I need to correct myself. I just found out you can switch the Percussion Tone into being a second Solo Tone instead. So that means you can actually stack
ten
tones, not nine as stated in the manual.

 

Craig, I'm looking forward to one of your fuller reviews of this keyboard, if you have the time/opportunity to write one.

 

The good news as far as I'm concerned (as someone who simply can't afford this instrument at this time) is that it signals, like the V-Synth, a return on Roland's part to making thoughtful, high-quality, well-built, professional high-end synthesizers, with design goals that solve real-world issues in need of solving for a specific audience (in this case, to sum it up simply: the ability to mix and layer a variety of tones in what some would call a "Performance" but is called more aptly here a "Live Set"). So, it's not a re-hash; it's not dumbed-down; it's well-designed. Period.

 

Let us know when you have further thoughts on the instrument, thanks! Wish I could get my hands on one, oh well; better for the pocketbook that I don't, I'm sure.

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