Members GigMan Posted June 27, 2012 Members Share Posted June 27, 2012 So I'm starting to find I dig a lot of the sounds in my new Yamaha MoX8 - which makes sense since I did like a lot of the ones in my old S90ES... still haven't gigged w/it - using my old Roland RD300GX for now, sometimes complimented on the top tier w/my new Korg M3, which is a blast (but that's a topic for a whole other thread)... But I still can't figure out how to adjust the Balance of Layered sounds on the MoX8. Yes, I have tried RTFM - "Layers" is in the manual but "Balance" is not... What I mean is - how do I make one of the knobs allow me to bring in or out the "top layer" to my taste - say, if it's organ over piano or Rhodes... or strings over piano, etc - - on the fly... NOT to preset it's balance ahead of time and have it always be that SAME balance when I call up the Performance... I do like the action on the MoX8, the portability, even the 64 note poly doesn't seem to bother me (yet) - - but the whole lack of faders and complicated approach to Balance of Layers could be the deal-breaker... Anyone? Bueller? Anyone? If this isn't doable - to the point where the "live" adjustment can be made at any time - then this keyboard isn't going to be with me long... I'll look at the Kurzweil offerings (PC3K7 or PC3 LE7 - LE also has only knobs, no faders - but Kurzweil dude Dave Weiser tells me that one is dedicated to the Balance function in any split ). Or I'll reinvestigate the option of controlling a Yam. Motif XS Rack w/a Casio PX3. Thx in advance for the flood of replies - both sincere & "you're an idiot, Balance of Layers is EASY it's like this: ____________" - - which I know that will come from my plea for help here... Also - not interested in using an iPad just to Balance the Layers... although I did just find out that I'll be getting one at work... still - seems ludicrous that you have to drag a $500 tablet along just to perform that function (layer balance) for the MoX8. I SUPPOSE maybe I could deal w/having to set up a volume pedal and use it for bringing in strings & other layers - - also seems a bit ridiculous that it can't be done easily on the MoX8 kybd. itself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted June 27, 2012 Members Share Posted June 27, 2012 There are easy answers and hard answers, with different trade-offs. Easy: You can save the Performance so that the top left tone-adjust knob is a dedicated volume for ONE part of the layer (your choice of which one). This gives you the same functionality you described with the pedal scenario, i.e. to keep one sound fixed and have a variable volume control to bring in strings or whatever other layer you want. If this is sufficient, as you thought the volume pedal might be, than this is easy. The short-coming to this (or the pedal approach) is that it only gives you on-the-fly access to one of the two layered sounds... but it is often enough, for the kinds of purposes you decide. (And actually, if you occasionally need the knob to control the alternate sound, it only takes a small number of button presses to switch its function from one layered sound to the other.) To do this, EDIT the PERFORMANCE you have created (i.e. the patch with the two layered sounds). On the PART EDIT screen, make sure the PART with the VOICE you want the knob to control (let's say strings) is selected for editing. Now go to the button on the top left that lets you select what the tone-adjust knobs do, and select the third row (TONE 3). Notice that Knob A is labeled Volume. Save the patch. That's it. The fact that you saved the patch while Knob A was assigned to Volume while the Strings part of the layer was selected for editing means that, when you recall that patch, Knob A will control the Volume of the Strings layer. It actually makes perfect sense once you know it... it's just not obvious, nor specifically described in the manual. I don't have the MOX in front of me at the moment, that was from memory, so I hope it's right... it's definitely very close. If you want simultaneous, independent control of both layers, there are, I believe, three options. (1) You can add a volume pedal, and set the patch up so that the Knob varies the volume of one of your two layered sounds and the Pedal controls the other. (2) You can use the iPad app. (3) You can create your layer in SONG mode (instead of the default PERFORMANCE mode for layers), and through a few convoluted steps I don't have time to detail here, set it so that Knob A controls the volume of one sound and Knob B controls the volume of the other. Options 2 and 3 have the additional advantage of not being limited to controlling two layered sounds... they can give you independent volume controls for up to 4 split and/or layered sounds. Yes, Yamaha should have made this easier, and it is one of the bigger flaws of the MOX, that you have to jump through hoops to get the 4 knobs to control the volumes of 4 sounds. seems ludicrous that you have to drag a $500 tablet along just to perform that function Once you have the iPad, you may find that it is a handy thing to drag along for all kinds of other purposes. You can manage song lists and call up charts/lyrics with apps like Set List Maker or DeepDish GigBook. You can play samples with BS-16i (and can trigger them from the MOX). There are clonewheel organs and VA synths you can trigger from the MOX as well. And check out the MIDIBridge program which allows you to run more than one MIDI app at a time, or run them in the background while you have some other app in front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Meatball Fulton Posted June 27, 2012 Members Share Posted June 27, 2012 On other Motifs, the sliders control layer levels in Performance mode but those are gone on the MOX. According to the manual you have to go into Edit mode to make the Volume knob active, see p.34 of the Owner's Manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 1, 2012 AnotherScott - your trick worked perfectly, thx so much!... As you pointed out, it only controls Volume of 1 layer but I can live w/that for now - ie, control volume of Strings over Piano sound or volume of Organ over Rhodes... etc. This trick only seems to work for Performances that I set up myself - I don't think it will work on any of the stock Voice patches that are already there (Piano & Strings, etc...) I still find the Yamaha interface confusing but am starting to catch on slowly & perhaps the MoX8 is a little less convoluted than the S90ES was. I'm getting the hang of Layers, will try Splits as well - just saving them to the USR1 bank for now - - where there's already existing patches that I have to overwrite - - hopefully if any those existing patches are good they exist elsewhere... ?? Aside from the Transpose button and the nice lightweight form factor - I don't think the MoX8 is set up as a "Live Performance" board at it claims to be - - if I want to try a different organ layered over piano or Rhodes, in the middle of a gig - - I can't, I have to set it up at home 1st... I think the Kurzweil PC3 LE7 would make that much easier to do on the fly - that was my alternate choice if I hadn't popped for the MoX8 but I really wanted to stay w/the Motif sound set and ultra light weight in an 88 key machine. Still getting the hang of the MoX8 but I'm thinking I'll keep it and make the best of it's limitations - I do love the super light weight and the full 88's! Any of you S90ES owners or former owners out there know EXACTLY where I'm coming from... I can definitely hear notes drop out when holding down pedal and using a Piano & Strings patch though (the strings cut out after a while) - the S90ES had the 128 notes of poly - hardly ever had note dropouts... I'll just have to adjust my playing & adjust how long (or little) I hold down sustain, learn to hold it just long enough before the note dropout happens... - bit of a bummer but it's a compromise I'll have to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted July 2, 2012 Members Share Posted July 2, 2012 I can definitely hear notes drop out when holding down pedal and using a Piano & Strings patch though (the strings cut out after a while) The PIANO+STRINGS VOICE is a tough one on polyphony. As I mentioned, Voices can have up to 8 elements... but normally, not that many play at once. For example, on the flute sound, the high velocity overblown element doesn't sound simultaneously with the low velocity pure tone element... the instrument only plays one or the other, depending on how hard you hit the key. But the PIANO+STRINGS Voice is triggering numerous elements at the same time (obviously, since you are hearing piano and string at the same time). Even if the piano sound was a simple one element sound and the string sound was a simple one element sound, the fact that you're triggering two elements at once immediately cuts the polyphony down from 64 to 32. If either of those sounds happens to include more than one simultaneously sounding element, the polyphony would be cut down even more. This is not something I've looked into extensively, but that's my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 2, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 2, 2012 yes, I think you're right - I'm getting the "Voice" called Piano and Strings mixed up w/a "Performance" - - funny, though - on my old S90ES I had the Piano & Strings voice and was able to adjust the balance of the levels with the faders... maybe it was actually a performance? Anyway - the other thing I realized, which IS a big drawback on the MoX8 is that I can only control 1 Layer w/that "volume" knob trick - - if it was a gig where I'm doing left hand bass and I want to have layers in my right hand of two different sounds, I'm screwed. That's the one thing that's great about the Roland RD300GX - it has 3 faders, each 1 is dedicated for bass split and the two layers in right hand (piano & strings, organ and Rhodes, etc...) - I love using the RD300GX for gigs where I need that flexibility 'cause I can instantly adjust volumes of left hand bass and right hand layers on the fly. Unfortunately the RD300GX doesn't quite the killer piano sound to cut thru a band mix & is very limited in synth sounds - which is why on most gigs I always used the S90ES... & now would use the MoX8 (though I haven't had it on a gig yet, have been using the RD30GX instead...) or maybe it will be the Kurzweil PC3xx - - if I bring the MoX8 back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted July 2, 2012 Members Share Posted July 2, 2012 Anyway - the other thing I realized, which IS a big drawback on the MoX8 is that I can only control 1 Layer w/that "volume" knob trick - - if it was a gig where I'm doing left hand bass and I want to have layers in my right hand of two different sounds, I'm screwed. Right. Go back to my earlier message on this page for guidance on getting past that obstacle. Look at the paragraph that begins, "If you want simultaneous, independent control of both layers, there are, I believe, three options." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 3, 2012 Options 2 and 3 have the additional advantage of not being limited to controlling two layered sounds... they can give you independent volume controls for up to 4 split and/or layered sounds. Yes, Yamaha should have made this easier, and it is one of the bigger flaws of the MOX, that you have to jump through hoops to get the 4 knobs to control the volumes of 4 sounds. Darn right they should've made it easier! - - it's really just absurd to have to drag a volume pedal or an iPad out w/me (yes, I have one & I know it's also good for other stuff- - but that's totally not the point) or to expect to have to spend time reprogramming each Performance, just to get it to the point where I can adjust relative volumes of multiple layers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 Btw - The END of the story is this: I went back to the store and tried out the Kurzweil offerings one mo' time - PC3K and PC3 LE... I LOVED the sounds - I think they stand up to the Yamaha Motif sound set w/no problem and in some cases surpass it... but I did NOT like the "instant-spring back" action on them. The only way to get the weighted action on the current lineup of Kurzweils is to get the 88 key models which are too heavy - 54 lbs.! - - the 76 key models have piano "box" style keys but have this "springback" action I just didn't like... shame. I think the older Kurzweil "PC3" model w/76 keys had a semi weighted action more along the lines of the MoX8, maybe a little lighter - that I could've lived with. But these instant "springback" keybeds on the Kurzweil PC3K7 or PC3 LE7 just don't do it for me. So I'll stick w/the MoX8 and it's cool sounds, light weight, very playable key bed, small form factor - and just try to get used to the interface & work my around the limitations I find in it, as best I can! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted July 9, 2012 Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 I think the older Kurzweil "PC3" model w/76 keys had a semi weighted action more along the lines of the MoX8, maybe a little lighter - that I could've lived with. But these instant "springback" keybeds on the Kurzweil PC3K7 or PC3 LE7 just don't do it for me. No. the PC3 had the same keybed as the PC3LE/PC3K. And I feel the same away about them as you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 No. the PC3 had the same keybed as the PC3LE/PC3K. And I feel the same away about them as you do. aye - it's the Fatar TP8 action, as per the Kurzweil web site: http://kurzweil.com/product/pc3k7/specs/ The 88 key Kurzweil PC3K8 and the 88 key Kurz. PC3 LE8 both have nice weighted actions with "piano style" keys & the K7 & the LE7 and LE6 also have the box-style "piano format" keys but with this weird TP8 action with instant "springback" mechanism, as I like to call it... But I just now noticed the picture on the Kurz. website that shows the PC3K6 actually has a different key bed, the Fatar TP9: http://kurzweil.com/product/pc3k6/specs/ - which has the "synth style" keys, not the boxy piano-style. Has anyone tried this - the action on the Kurz. PC3K6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted July 9, 2012 Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 Has anyone tried this - the action on the Kurz. PC3K6 Yes... the PC3K6 has a very nice synth action. I like it better than the one on the MOX6, but it's not a weighted action like the MOX8 (or the 88 key Kurzweils), and it is terrible for playing piano. Nice action for organ and synth, though. The PC361 is the same (but not the PC3LE6). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yes... the PC3K6 has a very nice synth action. I like it better than the one on the MOX6, but it's not a weighted action like the MOX8 (or the 88 key Kurzweils), and it is terrible for playing piano. Nice action for organ and synth, though. The PC361 is the same (but not the PC3LE6). Scott - how does the PC3K6 action compare to the Korg M3 - ever compared them side by side in a store? I find my M3 (61 keys) to be really playable, for a semi-weighted synth action. I found the Korg M50 to be not so great - which is why, when I bought one a couple years back, I had it for a few days and returned it & just decided to stick w/my trusty ole' Korg Triton Le... which had an even-worse, horrendous action but great sounds! I just found the M50 to be NOT that big of an improvement, action-wise. ...which is why, when I recently/finally upgraded from the Korg Triton Le, (same day I bought the Yamaha MoX8 to replace the Yam. S90ES) I went right for the Korg M3 as its successor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted July 9, 2012 Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 Scott - how does the PC3K6 action compare to the Korg M3 Pretty similar, I'd say. The Korg throw is a little deeper, the Kurz a little shallower, some people might prefer one or the other, but they're in the same ballpark. That's based on playing a PC361 and a Kronos-61, which use the same keybeds as the models you mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Meatball Fulton Posted July 9, 2012 Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 The real problem with the MOX is that Yamaha ditched the sliders which on the previous model (MO) could control layer volumes in Performance and Voice mode directly. I'm not sure why they did this beyond reducing the size of the instrument (the MO was the same size as other Motif models). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MickeyKeys Posted July 10, 2012 Members Share Posted July 10, 2012 No. the PC3 had the same keybed as the PC3LE/PC3K. And I feel the same away about them as you do. As do I. It's the one minor beef (aside from my still high degree of Kurz illiteracy ) that I have about owning a PC3(76). One of the Kurz-specific forums mentioned a user-installable spring kit for that keybed that worked wonders - supposedly - on the action. http://www.syntaur.com/PC3KC.html Been watching the site for a while now, though, and the kit still shows "out of stock". If they or someone else could put that kit together again I wouldn't be able to pull the trigger fast enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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