Members GigMan Posted July 15, 2012 Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 Going thru the Presets on my Yamaha MoX8 - some great stuff here but I just noticed that some presets are NOT at full volume... what is that all about Like "Natural Wurli" - which is a pretty decent Wurlitzer emulation w/vibrato (at least I think it's decent - I'm not a purist or anything...) - but the Preset volume was only 70 instead of the full 127 MIDI volume not value - - annoying... yet another reason why my love/hate relationship w/this machine sways more toward the HATE than the LOVE sometimes! It seems the only way to adjust it and keep it that way is to create my own "preset" of the same damn patch - only w/the higher volume level... and then I have to overwrite existing User Presets to do it - is that right? Yamaha is kind enough to fill the User Preset slots with sounds - - but the problem is, some of those sounds are pretty good, so now I have to pick and choose which ones to overwrite... !? - aggravating. I wish they'd just give you a completely BLANK bank of memory to fill up w/User created patches - - it would be a lot simpler, no? So how do I get all of MY User created Voices or Performances into one spot, while keeping the decent ones Yamaha created - - all in another spot, but right next to each other... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mikelpanky Posted July 15, 2012 Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 User banks should just be filled up with other presets. It is a bit annoying, I totally agree, especially in a live setting. I'm going to set up a midi file that plays back a single note at full velocity and then meter the output in the computer and level out all my live patches so that they're the same volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members keybdwizrd Posted July 15, 2012 Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 I have an MOX6 - I am not 100% sure, but I think the sounds in the User Banks are copies of ones in the Presets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mikelpanky Posted July 15, 2012 Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 That is to say, existing presets from the PRE banks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members keybdwizrd Posted July 15, 2012 Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 That is to say, existing presets from the PRE banks. Yes, I just found it on page 24 in the manual: "The User Banks contain the Voices you have edited and stored. By default, these are comprised of Preset voices." So, I have assumed that I can overwrite the User Banks because the sounds can be found somewhere in the ROM banks anyway. I haven't verified this, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted July 15, 2012 Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 So how do I get all of MY User created Voices or Performances into one spot, while keeping the decent ones Yamaha created - - all in another spot, but right next to each other... ? In MASTER mode, you can put any combination of Preset Voices, User Voices, and Performances right next to each other, in any order you want. Master Mode is basically nothing but pointers -- i.e. Mac "aliases" or Windows "shortcuts" -- to the actual sounds stored elsewhere. Except that Masters can also include MIDI zone data for controlling external gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 As has been mentioned, they basically did that. All the USER Voice slots are conceptually blank, in that they are all copies of voices that are elsewhere in the PRESET banks, so you can over-write those without worrying about losing anything. That's not true of PERFORMANCES though (which are, basically, combinations of Voices, sometimes with arpeggiations). If you find a particular Performance combination of theirs useful, you should avoid over-writing it. In MASTER mode, you can put any combination of Preset Voices, User Voices, and Performances right next to each other, in any order you want. Master Mode is basically nothing but pointers -- i.e. Mac "aliases" or Windows "shortcuts" -- to the actual sounds stored elsewhere. Except that Masters can also include MIDI zone data for controlling external gear. Good info - thx to all... I'll overwrite Voices w/my "edited" versions of the ones I like - knowing that the "overwritten" ones still exist in Presets elsewhere - it's the "Performances" that are original & that I have to pick and choose which ones to overwrite (so as not to blow away the good ones) - thx Scott, I think you'd mentioned that before, as well as the Master mode info - - I think I'll get the hang of, or "master" the Voice & Performance areas of the MoX8 before treading into the "Master" waters - - but maybe Master mode would make life a lot easier, maybe I'm looking at it wrong. I'm still not clear on why Voice presets are at all different volume/output levels on the MoX8 - stupid set up, I think. And once again - if I find a Voice I really like but the Output is NOT at 127 and I want it to be - - I can't change it right in the Preset, that's a fixed value, right? The only way to save that change (making it 127) is NOT to the Preset itself, but instead I have to edit that Preset to create my own User Voice based on that Voice, even just to make that one little change of bumping Output all the way up to 127... ?? It seems useless to me to have Voices that are not at full volume. Let the "user" (me) adjust them down if necessary - not make them bump them UP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members evildragon Posted July 15, 2012 Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 There's a very good reason why a program shouldn't be at full volume - depending on how many notes you play (+under sustain pedal), you can overload the audio output into clipping. Which is not nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members keybdwizrd Posted July 15, 2012 Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 For what it's worth, I had a Korg M3 for quite a while, and the volume discrepancy between presets with the M3 borders on ridiculous. The good news, however, is that the factory presets in the M3 can be over-written, so you can go through and edit them as you wish and save them in the same location. I switched from the M3 to the MOX6 largely because of the preset library - I generally prefer the Motif sounds, and the presets blend together well. With the MOX, I have a User bank that contains my favorite and most used sounds, all tweaked for my liking. Mostly I will just edit the effects and EQ. Concerning the volume variations, I haven't noticed a lot of these. Ones like you have found are probably just mistakes. It is often evident that these keyboards are designed by engineers who are not players. That said, when playing live I have preferred Motifs due to their ability to access patches with a single button press. This makes it easy to use five different sounds on one keyboard while covering a Genesis tune, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 For what it's worth, I had a Korg M3 for quite a while, and the volume discrepancy between presets with the M3 borders on ridiculous. The good news, however, is that the factory presets in the M3 can be over-written, so you can go through and edit them as you wish and save them in the same location. I switched from the M3 to the MOX6 largely because of the preset library - I generally prefer the Motif sounds, and the presets blend together well. With the MOX, I have a User bank that contains my favorite and most used sounds, all tweaked for my liking. Mostly I will just edit the effects and EQ. Concerning the volume variations, I haven't noticed a lot of these. Ones like you have found are probably just mistakes. It is often evident that these keyboards are designed by engineers who are not players. That said, when playing live I have preferred Motifs due to their ability to access patches with a single button press. This makes it easy to use five different sounds on one keyboard while covering a Genesis tune, for example. Ha - funny you mention that Michael, that you switched from a Korg M3 to a Yamaha MoX8... my other new kybd. (purchased at same time as the Yam. MoX8) - is a Korg M3 - - I haven't yet begun to address those output discrepancies on the M3 - still just figuring out which sounds I like on there - - "Session Brass" is pretty cool for horn section stuff, like tonite I'm doing a Concert in the Park (as many towns have in summer time here in NJ) - - amongst the selections we'll do are "10th Ave. Freezeout" (by Bruce), "Vehicle" (Ides of March) & Soul Man (Sam & Dave, Blues. Bros.) - -I'll use Session Brass for the horn hits on all those. Btw, on the MoX8 I found "Full Concert Grand" Voice to be at 90 or some other ridiculously low Output level... also found "Natural Wurli" at 70 I think - - hopefully, just "mistakes" as you say but they do NOT seem random. Perhaps EvilDragon is right, that the engineers left Output levels lower than full so that the audio output isn't overloaded to clipping (on the MoX8) - but couldn't I just back down the Master Volume fader to reduce that anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted July 15, 2012 Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 I thought most of the MOX sounds were at 100, I didn't realize there was so much variation. But it does make sense to not have everything at 127. Imagine you do a 4-way split/layer... say, some combination of strings + EP + organ + brass... and it's all perfect except you want to make the EP louder. Well, with everything at 127, there would be no way to make the EP louder. So instead of adjusting one volume up, you'd have to adjust the other three volumes down! Probably going back and forth multiple times to get the balance right. By making them less than 100, each voice can be adjusted up OR down when you start blending it with other voices. Two way control is far preferable to one way control. There is rarely a downside to having the voices at 100 instead of 127, apart from needing to turn the gain up a little on your mixer. I think it's smart design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 15, 2012 I thought most of the MOX sounds were at 100, I didn't realize there was so much variation. But it does make sense to not have everything at 127. Imagine you do a 4-way split/layer... say, some combination of strings + EP + organ + brass... and it's all perfect except you want to make the EP louder. Well, with everything at 127, there would be no way to make the EP louder. So instead of adjusting one volume up, you'd have to adjust the other three volumes down! Probably going back and forth multiple times to get the balance right. By making them less than 100, each voice can be adjusted up OR down when you start blending it with other voices. Two way control is far preferable to one way control. There is rarely a downside to having the voices at 100 instead of 127, apart from needing to turn the gain up a little on your mixer. I think it's smart design. hmm... I guess that makes sense - I'm just still aggravated over the fact that when I do bump up the volumes to 127 on the MoX8, I have to save it to a completely different User Voice, instead of right in the Preset, like Korg allows you. I guess the flip side of that is that in Korg's method of doing things, I could accidentally blow away a Preset that I really like on my M3 - whereas in Yamaha's setup on my MoX8, I can NEVER blow away/delete the Presets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JeffLearman Posted July 16, 2012 Members Share Posted July 16, 2012 I want most presets to be set at 100, and some higher or lower because they're inherently louder or quieter (due to filtering, resonance, envelopes, etc). 100 because it's loud enough for typical work, but with plenty of room to boost when needed, and headroom for when layering with other sounds. I admit there are also times when I've cranked the master volume and am running my monitor at full tilt, and I need just a bit more to cut through, so it's nice to be able to reach for the patch volume and boost that (while minding I'm not clipping anywhere, of course). When that happens, either the stage levels are too high (hopefully, just momentarily), or because I had the trim set too low on my mixer for the keyboard's channel (oops, my bad). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nobeatnik Posted July 17, 2012 Members Share Posted July 17, 2012 And once again - if I find a Voice I really like but the Output is NOT at 127 and I want it to be - - I can't change it right in the Preset, that's a fixed value, right? No, you can tweak any parameter you want in a preset voice, but the changes will be lost if you switch to another voice/mode or turn the keyboard off--you need to save into a USR slot if you want to preserve the changes. And yes it's a bit strange to have USR slots occupied by copies of the presets, but I bet it's a limitation of the OS; it probably can't handle empty slots without data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted July 18, 2012 Members Share Posted July 18, 2012 And yes it's a bit strange to have USR slots occupied by copies of the presets, but I bet it's a limitation of the OS; it probably can't handle empty slots without data. They could have just put the same "initialized patch" in each of them, or Grand Piano 001 (or whatever it's called). I think they were trying to strike a balance between people who want to know that they have safe spots to store things in, and people who think it's disappointing to go through patches and see a bunch of "nothing." So it's psychology, I think, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JeffLearman Posted July 18, 2012 Members Share Posted July 18, 2012 Is there any reason not to just use the USR copies of the presets, rather than the presets? The keyboards I've used have only had editable slots, which were seeded at the factory, and if you changed them, you lost the original factory preset (until you did a complete reset). Having the original presets always there certainly isn't a bad thing, but I'd want to be in the habit of always using the modifiable copies, so I can change something and save it back where I got it in the first place. The UI may make the presets easier to find, but if not, then just go with the USR slots and forget the presets ever existed (unless you goof one and need to start over). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnotherScott Posted July 18, 2012 Members Share Posted July 18, 2012 Is there any reason not to just use the USR copies of the presets, rather than the presets?. There are more Preset Locations than there are User locations. 1024 preset voices (plus drums and GM) 384 user locations, pre-filled with some of the first 1024 voices (but you can make them any 384 you want, or your own versions of those 384) There are also 256 user locations for "performances" which can contain anywhere from 1 to 4 voices (whether preset or user). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerrythek Posted July 18, 2012 Members Share Posted July 18, 2012 EvilDragon is correct - you have to account for the average number of voices a given sound is going to played with - using a single note to normalize volume is certainly NOT the way to do it. Keyboard sounds with likely sustain pedal do end up being played with a lot of notes sounding. So be sure to raise the level testing it with hard hits of full chords - the usual octave in the LH 4-note chord is the RH will work. For solo brass/woodwinds/synths etc, in other words monophonic voices you obviously don't have to test it this way, but consider more than one note just to be sure. I know at Korg that the sounds are not designed by "engineers" and the musical people who do them do consider the real-world playing of them. Then the product goes through a QC check to be sure that sounds are basically leveled considering the common usage. Do what you want, but consider these points before you find out that you've overdone the level. Changing the level of a single Program may also affect its balance in a Combi/Multi/Performance so watch out for that as well. Jerry(worked for many synth companies) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 19, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 EvilDragon is correct - you have to account for the average number of voices a given sound is going to played with - using a single note to normalize volume is certainly NOT the way to do it. Keyboard sounds with likely sustain pedal do end up being played with a lot of notes sounding. So be sure to raise the level testing it with hard hits of full chords - the usual octave in the LH 4-note chord is the RH will work. For solo brass/woodwinds/synths etc, in other words monophonic voices you obviously don't have to test it this way, but consider more than one note just to be sure. I know at Korg that the sounds are not designed by "engineers" and the musical people who do them do consider the real-world playing of them. Then the product goes through a QC check to be sure that sounds are basically leveled considering the common usage. Do what you want, but consider these points before you find out that you've overdone the level. Changing the level of a single Program may also affect its balance in a Combi/Multi/Performance so watch out for that as well. Jerry (worked for many synth companies) hmm... good points to consider, jerrythek and EvilDragon - - Jerry - you used to work for Korg, right? ...so does this mean I should NOT bump my "Full Concert Grand" Voice on the MoX8 up to 127? - - - leave it at 100 instead... or somewhere in between - 115 maybe? - - also, the Rhodes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 19, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 Is there any reason not to just use the USR copies of the presets, rather than the presets? The UI may make the presets easier to find, but if not, then just go with the USR slots and forget the presets ever existed (unless you goof one and need to start over). I think that is exactly what I'll wind up doing, Jeff - - esp. after editing Output volumes, bumping up somewhat - though maybe not completely up to 127, as was pointed out - I could max out or distort... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Athan Billias Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 The preset in the MOX ARE balanced for volume using both meters and real human ears. There are many gain stages in a MOX voice, but it appears you are referring to the overall global Voice level parameter. The only reason that parameter exists is exactly to balance the volume of all the Voices to a similar level. After all the Voices are selected , one of the last steps in the voicing process is to go through the entire Voice set and use that global voice level to balance the volume of the different voices. The first A Piano is set as a reference in a studio as 0 DB or nominal volume and then all the others are checked against that. Most of the Voices you mentioned use Insert effects for distortion which provide a tremendous amount of gain. So be careful because if you set that Wurlitzer or Distorted Guitar voice to 127 and then switch to the acoustic piano , the piano will be too soft and it is already at 127. As someone pointed out, you can't play just one note either as multiple notes can overload the output stages. Hope the explanation helps as a lot of work goes into the voicing to make it as useful as possible in a wide variety of situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Athan Billias Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 Jerry, hope Hawaii is nice ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Athan Billias Posted July 19, 2012 Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 "But it does make sense to not have everything at 127. Imagine you do a 4-way split/layer... say, some combination of strings + EP + organ + brass... and it's all perfect except you want to make the EP louder. " Actually in a MOX Performance (4 Voices split/layered) or a MIX (16 Part Multi timbral) every Part has a separate level, pan FX send, and offsets for filter cutoff , resonance, filter attack , decay , sustain , release, FEG depth and amplitude attack, decay , sustain and release as week as separate modulation routing. Basically you can completely change the Voice to fit it's use in the Performance or Mix without editing and storing the original preset Voice. If that is not enough, Ina MIX Voice you can edit every parameter of a Voice (or writet a completely new Voice from scratch if you want) and store it with the Mix for that song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted July 19, 2012 Author Members Share Posted July 19, 2012 Thx for all the info Athan - much appreciated. Now the key question for you: If I create a 4 Voice Performance on the MoX8, or even 3 (Bass in left hand, E. Piano and Organ layered over each other in right hand, for example) - - how do I control volume levels? I don't mean how do I set it up at home - I mean when I'm live on a gig and the acoustics in the room are different than my house, or than the last room I played... I want to be able to adjust ea. layers' volume (output?) individually on the spot as I need to. Can I? The S90ES I used to have had the faders which were very helpful in this scenario & unfortunately the MoX8 does not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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