Hilary Clinton is trash...

[duncan]

I tried to touch on this in my original post. It's a good point, but I still feel like we have the right and obligation to condemn it. I'm not sure you would argue with that statement, I just wanted to clarify. If anything, I brought it up initially because it shows that it is not as easy as pressuring the judge to drop the sentence. The law is bourne from a culture that discourages equality and education. The hardest part of all tho, is defining the line between good advice and full on "westernization". I understand why people from other cultures see it as arrogant and condescending, and I'm not sure we have much right to tell a country how to run itself when our own is not exactly a paragon for governments everywhere... It's just that this comes down to basic human rights, so I would argue that we have (like I've already said) some right and obligation.

 

 

 

no you don't. nobody does outside of that circle of discourse.

 

seriously guys. go read this text and you'll understand what i'm saying:

 

 

The Archaeology of Knowledge by Michel Foucault

[FWAxeIbanez]

I'm looking at it from the perspective of the woman. She did nothing of her own doing. By any of her actions, she could not have stopped this to happen, or allowed it to. Something was forced upon her. She didn't do anything. Now she is being punished in a severe, harsh manner. I'm well aware of what their culture teaches them, but I have to disagree with you that there aren't things that are intrinsically "right", and "wrong".

 

 

It is important to note that she is not being punished for being raped. She is being punished for going out alone without a relative or gaurdian. She did in fact make a choice that was against the law (although there is evidence to suggest she was there because she was being blackmailed over some pictures) This is a law she was no doubt aware of, and a concious decision was made. I know about 20 libs just rushed to hit the "quote" button to accuse me of supporting the oppression of women, but it's important to understand this so you know how to argue on her behalf. The fact of the matter, is that she is completely guilty of breaking that law. Another fact of the matter is that the law is bull{censored} to begin with and shouldn't even exist, and I believe that a good case can be made to support that opinion. Don't let the rape become a Red Herring, because that changes the whole argument, and because it doesn't apply, makes your argument flawed at the base.

 

This really should be about attacking the law itself, and not her specific situation. Because as the law is written, she is guilty. To pressure the judge into lessening or dropping the sentence or changing the verdict, is to ask them not to enforce a law. The judges were put in place on a promise to uphold law, so this is not a winning approach. The focus should be on the fact that the law is completely in opposition of the worlds opinion of human rights and how women are viewed.

 

Unfortunately, since Hilary decided to use it as a campaign strategy, her out cry will be viewed as another Christian American practicing intolerance and trying to fight the islamic faith.

[Phishmonkey]

Just because its within the morals the the Saudi government it doesn't mean its not a violation of basic human rights. If someone was beat as a child does that mean they should not be punished for beating their own children because they thought it was the right thing to do?

 

Anyway, laws like these are based off extreme and in many cases factually incorrect interpretations of the koran. These interpretations aren't there because people thought it was the right thing to do, they are there because self serving men who wanted to keep power over their wives bought into them enough to ingrain it into the law. So, your whole point about it just being their interpretation of the "right thing" doesn't really apply. These laws started out as violations of human rights for the sake of power, just because people bought into it it doesn't mean it ever was the right thing to do from anyone's perspective

[larryguitar]

you're still not understanding the situation from another scope of perception. if you were raised to believe that a woman should be punished for getting gang raped, then these events would have fallen into the realm of "morally good". there is nothing that is intrinsically "right" or "wrong". morals are nothing more than discourse that you have been immersed in since birth, and your parents before you, and their parents before them, etc.

 

 

Absolutely.

Terrifying.

[Phishmonkey]

Unfortunately, since Hilary decided to use it as a campaign strategy, her out cry will be viewed as another Christian American practicing intolerance and trying to fight the islamic faith.

 

 

By who? Anyone who's read a page of the koran knows that none of this bull{censored} is actually supported by it. The practices of veiling and seclusion in the household are Persian customs adopted by the Arabs, who then justified it by twisting the koran to fit their opinions. In America most people probably aren't to concerned with the muslim faith, and will just see it as a crime against women. The only people here that will support the law are those tolerant enough to consider the opinion of the other side, but not intelligent enough to actually learn anything about it

 

Saudi men will probably see it as an attack against the muslim faith though, as they've had the bastardized versions of the koran shoved down their throats since birth

[17 Tubes]

you're still not understanding the situation from another scope of perception. if you were raised to believe that a woman should be punished for getting gang raped, then these events would have fallen into the realm of "morally good". there is nothing that is intrinsically "right" or "wrong". morals are nothing more than discourse that you have been immersed in since birth, and your parents before you, and their parents before them, etc.

 

 

 

 

I can;t help but feel in my heart...religion or not...society or not...that punishing a woman for having a man (Actually serveral men) forcibly stick his dick in her is wrong.

 

 

Just like I know that tieing someone down and cutting their arm off with a chain saw for no reason is wrong.

 

 

It doesn't matter what country or society you are from....their are intrinsic basic rights of the human body.

 

 

Self mutilation...fine. I can dig it.

 

 

Let a preacher tell you to take poison pill? Fine....you ate it...you deal with it.

 

 

 

 

Lashing a woman for getting raped? Don't rationalize that....just cut that right now. That's not about society or religion or anything but pure evil torture. Should be at LEAST denounced by every free and humane nation or group or person on the planet.

[FWAxeIbanez]

 

no you don't. nobody does outside of that circle of discourse. seriously guys. go read this text and you'll understand what i'm saying: The Archaeology of Knowledge by Michel Foucault

 

 

Seriously mang, I understand your point and do not agree. You can stop waiting for me to agree with you, because it's not like a magical light bulb turns on over my head after you've restated your stance 20 different ways and I finally "get it". The fact is, I "got it" from the beginning, and I even commented on your point in my original post, because I saw it was coming.

 

You aren't saying anything new, and I am never going to be ok with humanitarian violations regardless of the culture or upbringing. Whats wrong is wrong, and to stick your head in the sand and say "none of my business" is downright dangerous. I'm glad that most of the world disagrees with you.

[NeloAngelo]

im putting money down that hillary wins the election.

based on the sole fact shes still legally married to billary.

[FWAxeIbanez]

By who? ...snip... The only people here that will support the law are those tolerant enough to consider the opinion of the other side, but not intelligent enough to actually learn anything about it Saudi men will probably see it as an attack against the muslim faith though, as they've had the bastardized versions of the koran shoved down their throats since birth

 

 

You answered your own question... I was commenting on how the judges will see it. I could care less how America sees it, because it's not our decision to make.

 

Unfortunately, most Americans will probably see this as Hilary supporting a rape victim, and her campaign will benefit while this rape victim gets jail time and 200 lashes.

[FWAxeIbanez]

I can;t help but feel in my heart...religion or not...society or not...that punishing a woman for having a man (Actually serveral men) forcibly stick his dick in her is wrong.

 

 

You took the bait boss... She is not being punished for being raped. It doesn't make it any less wrong, it just changes the argument.

 

 

The Shiite Muslim woman had initially been sentenced to 90 lashes after being convicted of violating Saudi Arabia's rigid Islamic law requiring segregation of the sexes.

 

[FWAxeIbanez]

 

 

Agreed. The worst part about it, is that he is completely confused as to why we didn't read the relativism garbage and immediately see it his way...

[simbasa]

{censored} Hillary. I knew she was going to run a long time ago. The thing is, she has to be this way for a woman to get elected here, I believe. Obama is the best Democratic candidate but he's so far behind......The She-Beast.

[duncan]

Seriously mang, I understand your point and do not agree. You can stop waiting for me to agree with you, because it's not like a magical light bulb turns on over my head after you've restated your stance 20 different ways and I finally "get it". The fact is, I "got it" from the beginning, and I even commented on your point in my original post, because I saw it was coming. You aren't saying anything new, and I am never going to be ok with humanitarian violations regardless of the culture or upbringing. Whats wrong is wrong, and to stick your head in the sand and say "none of my business" is downright dangerous. I'm glad that most of the world disagrees with you.

 

 

 

to be clear, i'm not advocating for this {censored}. it's horrible. i'm just saying that before people jump all aboard the "it's so backwards, we should bomb them, they have no right, etc" train, they should realize that in some parts of the world, {censored} like this is an every day thing, and that to them, it might not be as bad as the west makes it out to be.

[psychodave]

Just my .02 ... If you vote for her, you deserve her.

[Hegmatronicon]

She wasnt punished for being raped. She was punished for breaking the law. Being in the company of another un-related male at the time.

She broke the law - she pays the price. I'm not saying its a just law. But there are also a lot of western laws i dont agree with. Doesnt mean i wont be punished for breaking them.

FWIW i do think its a rediculous set of laws.

[keith2112]

I wish the Democrats would nominate someone like Fov. Mark Warner from VA or Even Bayh from IND but they won't. I will, however, certainly vote for whomever they nominate. Whoever they put up can't be as bad as Bush has been. I think of him every time I fill up with gas, see the buget deficit, see the national debt, read the names of the brave service men and women who have died this week in Iraq. The Clinton 90s were way beter than the Bush 2000s. Any objective person would come to the same conclusion.

[FWAxeIbanez]

Just my .02 ... If you vote for her, you deserve her.

Agreed.

[telephant]

As in, questioning the Saudis? You got that right. Maybe she'll blow some public smoke at 'em to make herself look good, but ultimately she'll jump right into bed with 'em like every other president in recent memory has. Of course, this is highly hypothetical. I still maintain that a female presidential candidate is unelectable in this country.

Sometimes you make so much sense it hurts. :lol::lol:

[FWAxeIbanez]

She wasnt punished for being raped. She was punished for breaking the law. Being in the company of another un-related male at the time. She broke the law - she pays the price. I'm not saying its a just law. But there are also a lot of western laws i dont agree with. Doesnt mean i wont be punished for breaking them. FWIW i do think its a rediculous set of laws.

This was another point I was trying to make. Hilary dumped this off in Bush's lap, as if a public condemnation from him was all that it would take for them to abolish a law that has been around for a long time, and change the social structure. She cares more about making Bush look bad, than benefiting the convicted woman. She wants to show how "different" she is from Bush, and this was a frustratingly effective card to play... Just look at half the responses here, most of these people thought she was being convicted of being raped... if only it were that easy.

Now Hilary will gain some support and she'll be the topic of discussion for a while, while an 18 year old woman who was raped by 7 men gets lashed and further punished for being out in public without a man.

Hilary makes me sick. Not because she is a Democrat, or even liberal. It's because she is disgusting, manipulative, and selfish.

[telephant]

you're still not understanding the situation from another scope of perception. if you were raised to believe that a woman should be punished for getting gang raped, then these events would have fallen into the realm of "morally good". there is nothing that is intrinsically "right" or "wrong". morals are nothing more than discourse that you have been immersed in since birth, and your parents before you, and their parents before them, etc.

This justification fuels the Christian idea that one needs the bible to give them some sort of moral compass. I cant subscribe to it.

[FWAxeIbanez]

Sometimes you make so much sense it hurts. :lol: :lol:

Seriously... During her first term, she would be too busy posturing for the second term. It would be the second term that we should be scared of. I also have to agree that woman are pretty unelectable in America, but if any woman had a shot, it would be Hilary.

[telephant]

While I dont hate the Hillz nearly as much as you do (), I definitely wouldnt vote for her.

 

HOWEVER, you cant just roll in to an ally country and spit game. If her urging the President to condemn it in public actually gets him to do it, thats a step in the right direction IMO.

 

But since they both play the exact same media game, the cycle continues. {censored} I hate politics.

[pwnerenator]

Hilary's position is a hard one to take, and many here in this thread are just being upset about that.

We should all embrace her for her devout patriocity and tact.

[FWAxeIbanez]

 

Hilary's position is a hard one to take, and many here in this thread are just being upset about that. We should all embrace her for her devout patriocity and tact.

 

 

A hard position to take pffft... Hilary is never too busy if it helps her public image, too bad she won't even remember this long enough to see if she's done some good, she's too busy keepin an eye on Obama's numbers.

 

As for patriotism and tact, I think you need to check your dictionary

[FWAxeIbanez]

If her urging the President to condemn it in public actually gets him to do it, thats a step in the right direction IMO.

 

If only his public condemnation is all it would take to get this woman off the hook. This is a far more complicated and deeply routed problem. She knows this, and Bush knows this, unfortunately most other people reading this think she is being prosecuted for being raped, and how dare Bush not oppose that?!

 

The current opinion of America, both from the world and Americans, and our situation in Iraq does not support our ability to say much more than "We really wish you wouldn't do that". We have our hands full at the moment, and they have the laws that they have because they are supported by the culture. If a firm "please don't" is all we can muster, wouldn't it be more effective if it came from a unified bipartisan group of people? Imagine the message that would have sent, as opposed to a thinly veiled campaign strategy meant to pit Hilary directly against Bush in aiding a rape victim. Hell, Hilary didn't even have the energy to tap into her feminist groups. Not yet at least, she must be waiting to see how big of a deal this makes. She'll probably keep goin until she gets a good soundbyte. On her own, putting the focus on Bush, it's like throwing punches underwater, so if it gets the attention she wants, she'll throw punches till she's tired.