Members theAntihero Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Honestly i dont think it will ever happen, tubes have a sound that so far no one has really been able to replicate, (and before someone says "but ive got the Super Tube Emulater of Doom and it sounds just like/close to/somewhat close to tOObz" i havent heard a modeler that gets better than close) and a great majority of tones in popular music is tube powered. Frankly though i dont care if my amp is powered by decaying monkey dung as long as it sounds good. SS amps can sound good, they just dont sound like tubes and theres a place for both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knucklefux Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 nevar:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JesperX Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 For the modern "metal" I agree, tubes are not needed, in fact just get a Line 6 and you're good to go. {censored} that. I'll stick with tubes, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZeroTolerance Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Part of the issue is that many guitarists will say they prefer tubes just because its the accepted norm that high priced tube amps are better than high priced solid state amps. Truth is that there are players who don't like tube sound for whatever personal reasons, and vice versa. Tone is, of course, completely subjective. Subjectivity can be altered by popular opinion. What I mean is that we choose to like tubes over solid state because A.) We are told they are better or B.) We like an artist who specifically uses a certain amp/line or C.) We just like them for our own reasons. However, I think we'd be suprised by how many people choose option A or B in this discussion. I can say that I used to be an A or B guy because I really didn't know any better. But the more I played guitar and the more I crafted my own sound, I figured that tubes just don't get along with what I want; so I prefer solid state for a number of reasons. Of course the tone is the #1 issue, but so is reliability and cost factor. Just my .02 but I personally think that tubes are going to be regarded as the "best" for quite a while just because of the stigma associated with solid state amps. Even if solid states can 100% replicate tube tone or surpass it some other way, it will still have to overcome that stigma. Its a popularity battle at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JoshuaLogan Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Part of the issue is that many guitarists will say they prefer tubes just because its the accepted norm that high priced tube amps are better than high priced solid state amps. Truth is that there are players who don't like tube sound for whatever personal reasons, and vice versa.Tone is, of course, completely subjective. Subjectivity can be altered by popular opinion. What I mean is that we choose to like tubes over solid state because A.) We are told they are better or B.) We like an artist who specifically uses a certain amp/line or C.) We just like them for our own reasons. However, I think we'd be suprised by how many people choose option A or B in this discussion. I can say that I used to be an A or B guy because I really didn't know any better. But the more I played guitar and the more I crafted my own sound, I figured that tubes just don't get along with what I want; so I prefer solid state for a number of reasons. Of course the tone is the #1 issue, but so is reliability and cost factor. Just my .02 but I personally think that tubes are going to be regarded as the "best" for quite a while just because of the stigma associated with solid state amps. Even if solid states can 100% replicate tube tone or surpass it some other way, it will still have to overcome that stigma. Its a popularity battle at that point. Truth. The main thing is the stigma. You can easily see it in a lot of peoples' posts here. Your A and B points are the reasons the majority of people adopt it. It's just what's almost always been used. It's hard for people to open their mind and let go of that bias. It's kinda sad and pathetic, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Herald of Light Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Part of the issue is that many guitarists will say they prefer tubes just because its the accepted norm that high priced tube amps are better than high priced solid state amps. Therein lies the problem. How many high priced solid state amps have you encountered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ConcreteVamphyr Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 What the marketplace accepts (and how fast it does) doesn't correlate with the technology and how soon it can be done. As far as replicating the sounds and feel of an amp it can be done, and many people are finding that out now with the Axe-FX. All it takes is very, very good programming. The "feel" and response can all be replicated in algorithms. Companies like Eventide had already done it for effects a long time ago, and now Fractal Audio is doing it full-on for amps. You have to understand that Line 6 and similar companies are NOT trying to get as close as they possibly can. They can't. It would be too expensive. They are a company and they have their marketplace.... they are a business more than they are a high quality innovator. Money comes first, and they have to price their products accordingly. They cut a LOT of corners and aren't as dedicated to innovating. That's where Cliff and Fractal Audio are different. He is a genius electrical engineer who made this thing for himself. He is extremely meticulous and is constantly looking to improve his product where he can. Now, it's unexpectedly grown a great demand, and with new users and a growing community, Cliff is receiving more and more feedback and ideas on how to improve the product and add more functionality, and it just keeps getting better and better. You will never see anything like that from Line 6, and that's a major thing that's holding them back. Axe-Fx Effects ProcessorItem# FAS001$1,749.95So, uhm, yeah. It's really expensive. And I "Still" have to spend more on a power amp....PROBABLY A TUBE POWERAMP... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JoshuaLogan Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Axe-Fx Effects Processor Item# FAS001 $1,749.95 So, uhm, yeah. It's really expensive. And I "Still" have to spend more on a power amp.... PROBABLY A TUBE POWERAMP... I'm not even going to bother commenting on the real price or the fact that it's also a world class effects processor anymore, because I have to repeat it way too often because of dumbasses like you who don't do their own research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ConcreteVamphyr Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 I'm not even going to bother commenting on the real price or the fact that it's also a world class effects processor anymore, because I have to repeat it way too often because of dumbasses like you who don't do their own research.I'll bite.1) Real Price?2) It's a $1700 processor. Research?:poke:one last thing (Since you haven't responded)I've noted that once you unload that 5150 tube head, you'll be out of amps.... (Real or imagined)You can then take your Cliff?Axe love to the Effects/pedals forum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SirJackdeFuzz Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 sure tube amps will probally always be around, but when do you predict digital will catch up and surpass toobs in the market place? I do not think digi will ever surpass valve amps ! One little example : " . . . how can you get REAL valve sag, or even a simple valve over-drive, if you do not have valves ("tubes" for the yanks) to over drive or get sag from ?" If a 50's design is still being used by 95% of all the guitar playing genre's out there today, (almost 60years later), don't you think they did something right way back then ? Not meaning to start an argument either, as one of my fav bands, NIN is notorious for using all sorts of digital amps AND FX, but some how it suits the industrial sound that they go for ! Many Jazz muso's prefer the warm almost dull (according to them, not me) tones of the Mini Brute, as the go-to amp ! But from Country to Rockabilly to Classic Rock to Hard Rock to Metal to DOOM prefer the tone of valves - like i said, +/- 95% of them ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SirJackdeFuzz Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 " option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members satannica Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 I can't seem to ever get a fully SS solution, modelled or otherwise, to have the same "depth" as a full tube amp. For me its a fook no... though it is better than it was back in the day when the Zoom 510 first came out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members -=Diz-Tortion=- Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 {censored} digital, tubes forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZeroTolerance Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Therein lies the problem. How many high priced solid state amps have you encountered? Heh, a few but not too many. And by high priced I meant above 800 dollars. Of course, price isn't the greatest judge of quality, either. You also have to think of the amp manufacturers as well. They push tube superiority in a lot of their ads; especially in their lower end lines which have to compete with solid state amps in the same price range. It's easy to see how people can just assume that if an amp doesn't have tubes its not worth it's salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jnmartin Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 One little example :" . . . how can you get REAL valve sag, or even a simple valve over-drive, if you do not have valves ("tubes" for the yanks) to over drive or get sag from ?" By having a schematic-level circuit simulation (which can already be done), accurate tube models (which already exist, and could also be derived from data sheets and observation) and a metric {censored}-ton of processing power (this can't be done at a price point that is consumer friendly... yet). That's the only thing holding back modeling today. It takes a LOT of CPU cycles to do accurate models, not the high-level EQ/gain-stage block abstractions that most companies are doing today. When they take care of that, the only part that will need to be improved is speaker/microphone/room modeling. IR modeling is good but not quite there, maybe at higher sampling rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jnmartin Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Therein lies the problem. How many high priced solid state amps have you encountered? None personally... but there are those high-$$$ Maven Peals... and uh... whats the other guy... his name pops up in a lot of patents for tube emulation. Hmm. If I can remember it I'll post it edit: pritchard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members V-Type Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 I like todays SS and Modeler amps a Hell of a lot more than say 10-20 years ago. But I think that tubes and certain tube amps are the Standard and will remain (although way more expensive). For most live applications its gotta be Tube amps. But in the studio guys are tricking us every day with Digital Modeled Amp tones that are Very Very good. Hell guys here are posting some Great Modeler/SS tones all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spruce goose Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 STFU, t00b! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SteinbergerHack Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Ya know, I've owned a TON of amps over the years, both SS/modeller and tube. I've heard some really nice clean tones from SS (JC-120, for example), but I have NEVER gotten the kind of 'knock-your-socks-off singing tone that I love to hear' from anything but a tube amp. Even the Bogner/Line 6 Spider Valve is leaving me flat, though it's not bad for the price. Set it up next to the new EVH, a Soldano, or a Bogner, and do a head-to-head comparison at stage volume....... If you really like the Line 6 better - great. Personally, I don't think it's there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Anomaly Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 About the same time people will cook COMPLETELY with Microwave (or other) ovens and NOT use conventional ovens. Seemingly, there are certain things we have invented long ago that are simply are still the *best* way to do things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cibyl Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Obsolete? Vacuum tubes have been "obsolete" for decades when applied to general electronics. But for guitar amplification purposes they will never be obsolete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BIGRED60NOLA Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 it won't happen guitarists, recording engineers, hi-fi cork sniffers and the radar industry will keep it going. also there are still the crusty ham radio guys that depend on tubes. I think the market place will be impacted by coast issues, but we will still pay money for the goods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zozobra Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 When it stops being finacially viable to produce valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RyanVanHalen Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 When bacon becomes the national currency, and also all amps will be made out of bacon because of its sweet, crispy, sizzling tone. Bacon will also be the president of our united states of baconmerica, and all amps will be 'bacon-state' which is a tube-solid state hybrid that is tasty. mmmm I am hungry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SirJackdeFuzz Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 By having a schematic-level circuit simulation (which can already be done), accurate tube models (which already exist, and could also be derived from data sheets and observation) and a metric {censored}-ton of processing power (this can't be done at a price point that is consumer friendly... yet). That's the only thing holding back modeling today. It takes a LOT of CPU cycles to do accurate models, not the high-level EQ/gain-stage block abstractions that most companies are doing today. When they take care of that, the only part that will need to be improved is speaker/microphone/room modeling. IR modeling is good but not quite there, maybe at higher sampling rates. I hear what you are saying . . . . . . it just seems a bit (actually ALOT) senceless to "create" all that extra (millions probably) man-hours from some of the best electrical engineers in the world to create a device that emulate a valve, when you can just use the very simple glass valve in the first place ! It kinda reminds me of Boss with their newest flopp, the FZ-5 digital fuzz pedal = WTF ??? Why make a very complex digital unit if the fuzz-box is one of the the most simplest curcuits to make of all the dirt boxes ? Now when it comes to multi FX, i can understand, but after spending many ,many, many hours on an ME-50 & GT-1, i am still left cold, and smile when i see my pedal board with it 8 stomp boxes on it . Getting back to ss/digi amps though, i frown many a time on the cheaper stuff, i'll be honest, but if i geta Fender Twin SE for free, "I'LL TAKE IT, with a big bloody smile on my face !!!" http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-Cyber-Twin-SE-Amp?sku=480867 - but only the SE model ! I'll never spend that money on a digi amp, but for free, "Hell Yes !!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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