Song Structure

[Swingfinger]

I have a question about song structure.... I haven't written many songs and I was just wondering which one's you guys found work best. I started this song an hour ago and im not sure what I should put next.. another verse.. chorus... breakdown.. whatever that is. I realize that it's all up to opinion but i'm just wondering what would work the best. Also, if anyone has any constructive criticism for the song It would be greatly appreciated. When I first started singing it, it kind of sounded like the melody for a shakira song that always played on the radio so I tried to change it a bit.

 

G.............................D

When he was a boy of just 16

....Am..............................C

He moved down here to the hollywood scene

....G......................D....................Am.................C

He found out that it wasn't what he thought

 

 

 

He ended up livin' on the city streets

In a cold cardboard box that comes rent free

didn't get much sympathy at all

 

 

G................................D..........Cadd9

Sometimes you've got to fall....... down

.....G..........................D............Cadd9

and sometimes fate will throw you again'st the hard

G

concrete ground

G.........................D...........................Cadd9

sometimes............. life is tough but cha' gotta make it through

G...........................D.............Cadd9.............G

everything....... that happens... good or bad..... is what defines you.

 

 

An Indiana Boy with a broken dream

his birthdays coming turning 17.

celebrating with a dumpster and a piss covered bar lit wall.

 

He sings little tunes for the passing folks

and with his old guitar he can really smoke

He's just trying to survive

 

Sometimes you've got to fall down

and sometimes fate will throw you again'st the concrete ground

sometimes life is tough but cha' gotta make it through

everything that happens good or bad is what defines you.

 

D

ya...

Am

what defines you

D

ya...

Am

what defines you

D

ya...

Am

What defines you

D

ya...

Am.............................C

What defines you?

[ToxicBass]

Swing, you've got to experiment.

A,B,A,B,C,B = verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus.

 

or

 

A,A,B,A,B = verse, verse, chorus, verse, chorus.

 

You need more detail in this song and less words. So far you've got:

 

1) kid moves to hollywood

2) kid lives in box

3) kid turns 17 and upgrades to a dumpster

4) kid plays guitar (which realisticly he would have pawned)

5) kid hits bottom and is a well defined loser

 

 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=481684

[Swingfinger]

Thanks for the advice mate.. I realize this song really needs a lot of evaluation and polishing to be anything decent. Again.. I really appreciate the comment.

[hawkinbj]

You'll most likely despise this comment, however everyone should take this into account if you ever find yourself worrying too much about songwriting: don't. There's no right way to do anything, especially these days when almost anything anyone writes regardless of talent, originality, age, sex, etc occupies some forum in which it's accepted or even highly regarded. Remember (and this is certainly just an opinion), it's not about tailoring your creativity/playing/singing/style/appearance to other's desires.....it's truy only about playing what makes you happy. and as far as lyrics and the rules of logic thus associated.....just reference phish, who were in my opinion the greatest musicians of our time (and they were successful in many different senses of the word). And now in parting, keep in mind you'll always be your toughest critic

My 2 cents.

 

 

"Ease the mind, share the groove"

[guitar7171]

Some basic concepts.

Rules were made to be broken. For every rule of good songwriting there are tons of examples of great songs that ignore that rule. But usually when you break a rule its for a reason, to get an affect, or balanced out by adhering to another rule. Even classical compusers when they would break one rule they would balance everything from sounding like anarchy by adhering more stongly to another rule to "ground" things so to speak. When Stravinski went crazy with dissonant harmony and melody he made a point to have bach like structures to give some semblance of structure or else it would have just sounded like random notes. He also made a point not to do long symphonies with all the dissonant harmonies, etc.

In a words its about balance. Now to break the rules you have to know them. OR instead of rules lets call them suggestions that help things easier on the listener in general.

Melody, in the verse and chorus, (just listen to every Beatles tune),

Keep it simple. in lyrics, arrangement, production. If it dont sound good in its bare bones form then adding more parts to crap wont make crap sound better. Get it to sound good in bare bones form then only add things that will enhance and bring the tune to life, help express the vibe of the tune, or if it sounds like something is missing. Experiment of course but err on the side of less is more when making a decision.

Use your ear!!!!

Listen to songs you love and figure out what you love about them and learn it. The melody, groove arrangement, structure, lyrics, etc.

 

Just some things to think about.

[cum2roll]

Much like all musical talent, songwriting is a gift that you eventually either have or don't. The pop formula of intro-verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge (aka middle 8, aka breakdown,aka GUITAR SOLO!)-chorus,,that formula is a template for talentless hacks!

 

If you compose a song that way because it came out of your soul like that, then it's the right thing.

 

Your song chords were simple and a million songs have been written with the same chord structure. It's what you do with your foundation that makes the song killer!

 

So download a free, idiot proof piece of recording software like audacity and plug a mic in your computer. Or get a tape player! But start noodling with melody lines or moving your fingers from those chords, one at a time, to reachable places(frets) while the original is still playing back. You'll be surprised how much adding or moving one finger to a different location can create chords that perfectly harmonize w. your original chord.

 

When something pops in my head, I grab my phone and hum it into my video recorder. If the guitar is near, i pick it up and find out the chords or melody notes I was thinking of and start building from there. Keep your mind and soul completely open and you'll be shocked at the things that will just come to you. Always be ready to record them.

[IcyScythe]

Dude drop verse/chorus structure entirely, it's lame and has been done to death... narrative structure slaaaays.

[Swingfinger]

Narrative structure?

[IcyScythe]

Yeah, basically instead of doing this:

 

Verse

Chorus

Verse

Chorus

Bridge

Chorus

 

You do something like this

 

Riff A

Riff B

Riff C

Riff D

Riff B

Riff E

Riff F

Riff E

Riff G

 

It's more interesting, and is FAR more relistenable. Of course, it's also harder to write.

[Ben J]

 

Yeah, basically instead of doing this: Verse Chorus Verse Chorus Bridge Chorus You do something like this Riff A Riff B Riff C Riff D Riff B Riff E Riff F Riff E Riff G It's more interesting, and is FAR more relistenable. Of course, it's also harder to write.

 

 

 

I couldn't disagree more. While a very small number of people might enjoy music like this, the VAST majority of people get lost easily when music is too progressive. If there is no recapitulation, the listener loses interest. Period.

[SixStringAxis]

Just keep writing, dont try and tweak a song just write a new one. Just let the lyrics and structure come out dont try and force it. Your structure will only get better as you write more songs not as you try and tweak the ones you already have.

 

Music is exactly like painting you cant correct what you already have you can only paint over it with something new or start over from scratch. If you dont believe that trust me you will never get better. You can learn all the theory on song structure you want but until you go and practice it 100 times your not going to get any where.

 

You should knock out atleast a few ideas a day, they dont have to be complete songs or even songs at all, just get some ideas on paper and they great important stuff every time, in fact your best stuff will come when you force it the least.

 

You should never over think anything, if you record a song twice dont try and make take 2 sound like take 1, make take 2 sound like its own thing, and if a certain part sounds the same as it did in take 1 great! But never try and make it sound the same as it did before. Its the same way with writing, song structure, anything in art really. Art is constant improvastion over top of something you have memorized or your just coming up with on the fly. You can never do something the exact same twice so dont even try, just let it flow, or else it will sound like your trying to copy something you have already done! Just like your playing or writing will sound nervous if your nervous, or if your playing angry, happy you get the point.

[ido1957]

I couldn't disagree more. While a very small number of people might enjoy music like this, the VAST majority of people get lost easily when music is too progressive. If there is no recapitulation, the listener loses interest. Period.

 

Depends of course on what kind of music you like I suppose. For the vast majority of the music buying public it is the repetitive style that dominates. So you are both right.

[kurdy]

 

Just keep writing, dont try and tweak a song just write a new one. Just let the lyrics and structure come out dont try and force it. Your structure will only get better as you write more songs not as you try and tweak the ones you already have. Music is exactly like painting you cant correct what you already have you can only paint over it with something new or start over from scratch. If you dont believe that trust me you will never get better. You can learn all the theory on song structure you want but until you go and practice it 100 times your not going to get any where. You should knock out atleast a few ideas a day, they dont have to be complete songs or even songs at all, just get some ideas on paper and they great important stuff every time, in fact your best stuff will come when you force it the least.

 

 

I agree with this. Instead of spending a vast amount of your time tweaking and rewriting one song, you could easily spend that time on taking what you've learned from the experience and writing two better songs. Unless of course, you feel that you've got something really special, and you want to see it through until it's the best it can possibly be, then yeah--waiting it out can be a perfectly legitimate approach too. Not saying you should never bother to rewrite, if you know you can make it better. But sometimes it pays to just move on.

 

It's good to realize that you will come to write many more songs, and the more you do it, the better you'll get, to the point where it'll come easier to write a great song. And the benefit of this approach is that in getting to that one great song, you'll have acquired a bunch of other really decent ones to add to your repetoire. It's more productive.

[IcyScythe]

I couldn't disagree more. While a very small number of people might enjoy music like this, the VAST majority of people get lost easily when music is too progressive. If there is no recapitulation, the listener loses interest. Period.

 

Well, if you look closely, there is repitition. Riff B and E repeat 2x each .

 

EDIT: I also might add that the IDEA is that these riffs go together and share a similar theme

[Ben J]

Well, if you look closely, there is repitition. Riff B and E repeat 2x each . EDIT: I also might add that the IDEA is that these riffs go together and share a similar theme

 

Ha! I feel stupid. I saw an A on top and G at the bottom and assumed it was just A through G all in a row. Oops.

[Swingfinger]

Ha! I feel stupid. I saw an A on top and G at the bottom and assumed it was just A through G all in a row. Oops.

 

sweet avatar :mad:

[samtrips]

hawkinbj: I like your advice. Recommend me a Phish album?