forumites co-operation

[mekke]

long time since I wrote something....this one I wrote lately and I made a video with some shots I have taken with my nikon. Whats missing folks?

 

 

[video=youtube;Xp4TBcTg2L0]

 

 

This forum is probably one the most interesting in the HC community.

I have heard a lot of talent here, and I feel I have learned a lot by listening songs and reading comments. But I think I could learn more.

 

What do you guys think it would happen if tried and take this to a step further ? Meaning...actually playing on eachother songs? On request that is to say:) . Example: mekke needs harmonies on a song and thinks that Bluesway has the perfect voice for the task.

 

I mean...what more could we ask? Almost everyone has a pretty good home studio, almost everyone has a soundclick/myspace page where it

[dbd1963]

I think that's a great idea.

 

Now I have a minute to expand on my thumbs up. I don't know what I'm particularly good at that would be in demand -- I do play bass fairly well, but most guitar players like to do their own bass too. I could sing backup and help arrange backing vocals maybe, but again I doubt many folks would be needing my help here. But I think this kind of thing is a good idea. I'm idealistic and I think community building is an end in itself, but everyone else is going to have their own ideas about this.

 

Taking your idea off to one side, I have often wondered what could be done with an "internet band" of strong writers? The same general thing, only the idea is to produce something that would be different than what each would have done on their own -- hopefully better, but that's always up to interpretation. This idea has always run up against the truth of the internet -- we are all still rugged individualists here. Hard to get any group to see eye to eye. If this was something that people liked doing, it would be cool. You could even imagine doing a kind of informal contest out of it.

 

But that's an idea off to the side of your original idea, which is probably more likely to come to fruition than my hare-brained idealistic whim..

 

Ultimately I'm more likely to be in need of help from others than to be able to provide it. Not that I wouldn't be happy to, mind you. I'm just looking at it from my viewpoint.

[eeglug]

You will probably get some interesting responses both positive and negative. The most controversial aspect would be the idea of payment and I have no idea what to say about that.

 

The folks on the Guitar Jam forum do collaborate with one another (for free I think) with good success. They have been posting with one another for a long time and have an established rapport with one another.

 

With my own material, I am pretty set in my ways and tend to be independent. But I would be willing to play guitar or sing or even play bass for someone if they thought I was the right person for it LOL.

 

The other thing I would say is that mp3's won't cut it IMO. If you care about the fidelity of your songs, WAVs (or another lossless file format) is the only way to go...which means that old fashioned mail is the best recourse for sharing data. Again, as with the GJ folks, this kind of thing is best done among people who have a certain level of trust with one another especially if you will be trading home addresses. Maybe file exchanges can start out in mp3 format but eventually the recipient ought to have a lossless file from the 'hired gun'.

 

I hope you don't think I'm being an ass about this...

[dbd1963]

There are some other options like sendthisfile.com and the like.

 

I think I had my blinders on about the pay issue. I'd be more interested in barter.

[Floophead3]

most email providers can handle quite a few .wav files at a time, but there is always direct transfer via AIM, MSN, and other IM services. I also think it'd be great to get a collaborative effort going. I'm so glad you posted Mekke. I don't think payment is necessarily something we have to consider unless it's a collaboration on an album song or something being sent off to a studio. I think it's far more important to further the creativity of those who visit these forums.

 

As for myself, I'd be glad to help write lyrics or guitar parts especially. I'll be glad to help out with anything else none-the-less. I think we should seriously consider doing a collaboration a week between HC members. We could even sign up for a week to work with others who sign up. Who knows what songwriting teams may appear, and having a weekly thing keeps new material flowing and (though I know we all hate running on a schedule) songs to be produced expediently, if that's a word. Just a thought, but it'd be fun to have something novel every week to listen to.

[oddestmoose0]

I'm up for doing some collaborating but I would think it'd be easier and probably more fun if money was kept out of it. I guess if you really thought someone specifically would do a good job helping you with one of your songs you could offer to pay them, but I'd like to think that most people here would be happy to help out as long as you don't ask too much. As far as sending the .wav files goes, we could use sendspace, yousendit, mediafire, etc. and that way if it was a collaboration between more than two people the person uploading it would only have to do it once. Then everybody esle could just get it when they needed it. An idea I had was we could start off with something simple like a chord progression on guitar and a vocal melody and then upload that and everybody put their spin on it and then we can see which direction we like most and everybody do another layer and so on. So yeah, we should do it.

[mekke]

 

I think that's a great idea. Taking your idea off to one side, I have often wondered what could be done with an "internet band" of strong writers? The same general thing, only the idea is to produce something that would be different than what each would have done on their own -- hopefully better, but that's always up to interpretation. This idea has always run up against the truth of the internet -- we are all still rugged individualists here. Hard to get any group to see eye to eye. If this was something that people liked doing, it would be cool. You could even imagine doing a kind of informal contest out of it. But that's an idea off to the side of your original idea, which is probably more likely to come to fruition than my hare-brained idealistic whim..

 

 

I agree on the money thing and like you I wonder how many people would need my help.

Besides I could not agree more with your idealistic view on co-opeartion and the idea of a virtual band: in that perspective creativity is what can be offered, and to me that is simply priceless. Thanks for putting into clear words a thought I think I had somewhere in my brain.

[mekke]

You will probably get some interesting responses both positive and negative. The most controversial aspect would be the idea of payment and I have no idea what to say about that. The folks on the Guitar Jam forum do collaborate with one another (for free I think) with good success. They have been posting with one another for a long time and have an established rapport with one another. With my own material, I am pretty set in my ways and tend to be independent. But I would be willing to play guitar or sing or even play bass for someone if they thought I was the right person for it LOL. . I hope you don't think I'm being an ass about this...

 

Eeglug! you always express opinions in such an articulate and polite way. Why would I ever think you are an ass?

Down to the business: the money thing is better if left aside. Totally agree again.

 

I have been hanging in the guitar and amp forum for a while: you are right - they do co-operate - but as far as I have seen, most of the times is done on a base track where several solos are laid in. In the amp forum it gets more sound oriented and the "tone" is the ultimate driver of co-operations. What I see here is the potential to improve something that goes beyond sounds, pickups and techniques: maybe a bit idealistic - and definitively much more difficult to accomplish - like dbd said...

 

IMO the important bit - which is the core of this thread - is: should somebody ask you to sing or play a guitar track on his / her song, would you accept? - of course assuming that the level of trust is there?

[eeglug]

IMO the important bit - which is the core of this thread - is: should somebody ask you to sing or play a guitar track on his / her song, would you accept? - of course assuming that the level of trust is there?

 

I would consider it an honor to be asked by someone to contribute to their work. I think there are a lot of great ideas for collaboration mentioned so far.

 

We all have different styles of playing and writing and even equipment at our disposal so it might be helpful to start with something simple & focused to begin with...just my 2 cents.

[Floophead3]

Actually I have a great start track to work with. I've got a fairly complete song, though I'd like to redo the drums, but it needs vocals. It'd be great if someone could record the vocal track. I can give the lyrics and put in an instrumental line where the vocals would be. Style is alternative rock and I'm looking for someone with a fairly decent upper range. Melody during the chorus goes to the A. (5th fret 1st string for you guitar monkeys). Anyways, anybody who'd want to take a stap at this is welcome to, not going to limit it to one person.

 

I've been thinking we should either:

A) start a new post that hopefully will get stickied advertising either songs that we want help with or what we're willing to help with.

B) sticky this thread and start posting as such.

 

As a high school musician I'm disappointed with the lack of competent people to work with, so any opportunity I can get to work with skilled musicians is a blessing.

[dbd1963]

Floophead3, if it's a singer you are looking for, that wouldn't be me.. There are some very talented singers here though.

 

So what I'm getting is that Oddestmoose0 and eeglug think we should start with something simple and try to build it up? That's an interesting thought. There are several ways to go with that idea.

 

I'll bet many of us have some song parts we never could finish -- so what if we each uploaded one and then all of us took some cracks at working out other bits? It would begin as chaos more than likely, but maybe as things were worked out there would be something fruitful in the end. Or it could be one magnificent train wreck!

 

It's also possible to use a song that was already complete but rework it from scratch. I see that eeglug alluded he'd not be into that, but my thought is "I already have my version and it's not getting erased." I would be into remaking eeglug's "As the Day Begins" for instance. That's a great song.

 

On that point, I remember reading Sting to have said something like "I bring in these beautiful songs, and then LOOK at what these two do to them!" He was always ambivalent about their contributions, but The Police has a sound that transcends anything he did on his own (for my money anyway). Yet you can't bottle that process, and there's no telling whether anything good would come from our trying it, still I throw the idea out into the ring for consideration.

[mekke]

 

most email providers can handle quite a few .wav files at a time, but there is always direct transfer via AIM, MSN, and other IM services. I also think it'd be great to get a collaborative effort going. I'm so glad you posted Mekke. I don't think payment is necessarily something we have to consider unless it's a collaboration on an album song or something being sent off to a studio. I think it's far more important to further the creativity of those who visit these forums. As for myself, I'd be glad to help write lyrics or guitar parts especially. I'll be glad to help out with anything else none-the-less. I think we should seriously consider doing a collaboration a week between HC members. We could even sign up for a week to work with others who sign up. Who knows what songwriting teams may appear, and having a weekly thing keeps new material flowing and (though I know we all hate running on a schedule) songs to be produced expediently, if that's a word. Just a thought, but it'd be fun to have something novel every week to listen to.

 

 

Fllophead, I have this song in English that has been lying there for ages; she is begging for some help and different musical point of view. If you are up for it we can start from there; you have a listen to the super rough take I have done, and see what to change, add, distort...you name it.

Gimme a shout if it sounds like something feasible, and I

[mekke]

what do you guys think if we started from here? Have a listen and plunge in if you feel like it. Just post reply to this very msg

and we see if in two three days you feel like this is something workable.

I do not take anything personal, so lets strip this thing and give it a shake.

Look fwd to hearing how you would improve the lyrics, add parts, have drums, paly bass, sing...whatever really. Ok, I stop now or else I get annoying. I upload it on my soundclick and leave the download option open. Link omn my sig

 

If you want me to play only the acoustic guitars as a reference to then build up afterwards, I can do it and post it again. You are all welcome to take this further: it would be an honour for me.

Maybe the best way to start is to hear what you would want to change, and what you think you can add. We take it from there, and anybody is invited

 

Oh! If its hopeless say it loud, and we move onto sth else from somebody else... as long as we dont let this little project die before having given it a try. Thanks folk, ciao, M

[eeglug]

I would be into remaking eeglug's "As the Day Begins" for instance. That's a great song.

 

Thanks for the compliment. You can do what you'd like with that song - I'm all for it (but would probably not get involved myself as it is rather old to me).

 

I think mekke's got an idea rolling so let's see what tweaks people's interest.

[Floophead3]

Mekke, I'm gonna check out what you have and I'll see what I can do with it. My recording equipment is at my drummers house along with all my electric instruments, but I can get a few ideas I'm sure.

 

BTW, I'll do anything but drums, until we get proper micing for the kit, but for vocals I suggest finding someone else because I'm not crazy about my singing

 

 

Question: you're talking about "The Crossroad Song", right?

[dbd1963]

OK eeglug, I hear you.

 

Mekke, that's a very good song. It doesn't seem to need any more writing, apart from maybe some lyrical revisions. So what we're looking for here is to add drums, bass, and maybe keyboards?

 

I think the tempo is 110, is that right?

[samtrips]

This is a very cool idea people. I like your thinking.

[DaSpider]

What the heck, count me in. I'm willing to help out in any way. We'll still have to figure out the process, but I could help out with bass, guitar, and/or vocals.

[dbd1963]

Ok, here's a copy with drum loops (they are Drums on Demand loops) and a bassline. There are a couple of things about the bassline that might need to be revisited, but this was a quick take while I had time to get into the studio ('momma' is doing some homework for a class tomorrow, so I had a bit of time).

 

mekke--The Crossroads Song

lo-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5340420&q=lo

hi-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5340420&q=hi

 

Btw: the drums are not meant to be the 'real deal' -- it's just to help keep in time while adding parts. Too bad there aren't many drummers in this forum. Maybe some could be recruited from the Drum Forum -- anyone ever go there?

 

BTW again: it's a terrible mix! I'll work on it again but it may not be necessary if mekke has no use for the bassline.. I gave you some options in spots -- went high on the first chorus, but stayed low on the next; tried a C, a G, and a B on the stops -- B obviously not working..

[dbd1963]

After living with it for awhile, I don't think "The Crossroads Song" needs any lyrical revisions. It seems solid from top to bottom. Good job, mekke!

 

Actually, let me exercise some long-disused critical muscles and go further with my praise for mekke's lyrics. The crossroad song is very interesting because the imagery in the lyrics create a real sense of the unending monotony of life, building toward a hint of impending doom, while the music is gentle and soothing. That soothing quality of the music reinforces the "need to fall asleep" which is the central element of the song. I take that need to sleep as the antidote to the grind of a monotonous waking life, where "the road is long, so long - it's hard to see the end." This drudgery, a kind of sisyphean task of driving without any end in sight, leads to a loss of identity, as in the line "Too many crossroads, lights -- I wonder who I am".

 

I don't know many people who work for a living who can't identify with such thoughts to their very core.

 

The song also adds in a helping figure, about whom the speaker says "I love you more than I love my own self". This was the line that I had the most trouble with in the song. Coming as it does right up front, it sets a self-abnegating tone which can be offputting to some listeners. But it doesn't come isolated from the rest of the song, which is not about self-loathing, or even about an inordinate love for the other. The speaker wants the helper figure to take control for awhile to allow him to rest from his endless labor, "Can't you just help me drive? I need to fall asleep." In a sense this is about the rest we all take in the presence of those we love.

 

The road metaphor dominates, but it's not the only one mekke uses in the song to illustrate what it's like living the dayjob. He compares that place to the ocean, and himself to "a river throwing waters at the sea", a seemingly pointless effort. Reinforcing the sense of the overwhelming qualities of the daily world, he says "the sea is deep and breathing difficult at times".

 

And it's hard to leave it all behind at the end of the day, as he points out in one of my favorite lines from the song, "and when the night comes the world sits down on my mind". It's so pervasive it even encroaches on dreams, "The dreams are empty, full of faces -- what is it? / There in a corner, beaten up - what do you see?" Here is where we see that the escape is not so easy, that it is hard to "separate the bitter from the sweet". So what can compensate for this hellish life? The answer, of course, is in the helping figure, the one the speaker loves "more than my own self." That's the sweet amidst all the bitter. And though there isn't much space devoted to descriptions of the positive gained through love, it's here where the music lends what words cannot. The song is soothing, sweet and has an optimistic quality almost completely absent from the lyric. It leaves the impression that, however bad things look right now in the umpteenth hour of the endless drive, there is peace and rest at last. In a nod toward a possible better future, the speaker says, "Get me up again when the high tide has given in." This allows us to see the endless drudgery as something cyclic, like the tides, and that it will end (even if it's only to come back again later..) So ultimately, the song is an optimistic one, but with a realistic view of the way life works. You've got to take the bitter along with the sweet.

 

Many songwriters aren't able to keep their imagery and story bound together like this. It's not rare that you'll see imagery that actually fights the song, creating an ironic tension within that works against itself. Mekke has avoided that trouble, with the ease of a seasoned poet, and in his second language too.

[mekke]

After living with it for awhile, I don't think "The Crossroads Song" needs any lyrical revisions. It seems solid from top to bottom. Good job, mekke! Actually, let me exercise some long-disused critical muscles and go further with my praise for mekke's lyrics. The crossroad song is very interesting because the imagery in the lyrics create a real sense of the unending monotony of life, building toward a hint of impending doom, while the music is gentle and soothing. That soothing quality of the music reinforces the "need to fall asleep" which is the central element of the song. I take that need to sleep as the antidote to the grind of a monotonous waking life, where "the road is long, so long - it's hard to see the end." This drudgery, a kind of sisyphean task of driving without any end in sight, leads to a loss of identity, as in the line "Too many crossroads, lights -- I wonder who I am". I don't know many people who work for a living who can't identify with such thoughts to their very core. The song also adds in a helping figure, about whom the speaker says "I love you more than I love my own self". This was the line that I had the most trouble with in the song. Coming as it does right up front, it sets a self-abnegating tone which can be offputting to some listeners. But it doesn't come isolated from the rest of the song, which is not about self-loathing, or even about an inordinate love for the other. The speaker wants the helper figure to take control for awhile to allow him to rest from his endless labor, "Can't you just help me drive? I need to fall asleep." In a sense this is about the rest we all take in the presence of those we love. The road metaphor dominates, but it's not the only one mekke uses in the song to illustrate what it's like living the dayjob. He compares that place to the ocean, and himself to "a river throwing waters at the sea", a seemingly pointless effort. Reinforcing the sense of the overwhelming qualities of the daily world, he says "the sea is deep and breathing difficult at times". And it's hard to leave it all behind at the end of the day, as he points out in one of my favorite lines from the song, "and when the night comes the world sits down on my mind". It's so pervasive it even encroaches on dreams, "The dreams are empty, full of faces -- what is it? / There in a corner, beaten up - what do you see?" Here is where we see that the escape is not so easy, that it is hard to "separate the bitter from the sweet". So what can compensate for this hellish life? The answer, of course, is in the helping figure, the one the speaker loves "more than my own self." That's the sweet amidst all the bitter. And though there isn't much space devoted to descriptions of the positive gained through love, it's here where the music lends what words cannot. The song is soothing, sweet and has an optimistic quality almost completely absent from the lyric. It leaves the impression that, however bad things look right now in the umpteenth hour of the endless drive, there is peace and rest at last. In a nod toward a possible better future, the speaker says, "Get me up again when the high tide has given in." This allows us to see the endless drudgery as something cyclic, like the tides, and that it will end (even if it's only to come back again later..) So ultimately, the song is an optimistic one, but with a realistic view of the way life works. You've got to take the bitter along with the sweet. Many songwriters aren't able to keep their imagery and story bound together like this. It's not rare that you'll see imagery that actually fights the song, creating an ironic tension within that works against itself. Mekke has avoided that trouble, with the ease of a seasoned poet, and in his second language too.

 

Man, I am smiling as I read, since you got basically what the song is all about - and I want to thank you so much for your kind words. You are very close to all the meanings of this piece; it is - once again -the result of a deep state of mind. The result of an illness that has been tormenting me with many sleepness nights; and when I say many I speak about very poor sleep for about 5 years.

So the sleeping part actually refers to the real thing: let me fall asleep because I need ineed it. But at the same time life goes on, work goes on, and like many others you just have to hang on; and as you go you just feel you cant choose between bitter, sweet, stay, escape.

Again, thanks so much for taking the time to write this: while reading I had this "motivating" feeling. Next thing you know, I am gonna give myself a salary raise!

I truly appreciated it. I am listening to the parts you have played as I write. Let me listen to it a bit more, and give you my score. M

[mekke]

 

Ok, here's a copy with drum loops (they are Drums on Demand loops) and a bassline. There are a couple of things about the bassline that might need to be revisited, but this was a quick take while I had time to get into the studio ('momma' is doing some homework for a class tomorrow, so I had a bit of time). mekke--The Crossroads Song lo-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5340420&q=lo hi-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5340420&q=hi Btw: the drums are not meant to be the 'real deal' -- it's just to help keep in time while adding parts. Too bad there aren't many drummers in this forum. Maybe some could be recruited from the Drum Forum -- anyone ever go there? BTW again: it's a terrible mix! I'll work on it again but it may not be necessary if mekke has no use for the bassline.. I gave you some options in spots -- went high on the first chorus, but stayed low on the next; tried a C, a G, and a B on the stops -- B obviously not working..

 

 

I originally had a similar bass line on the verse; I really like what you do on the first chorus ..."the sea is deep and breathing...."; you use very high notes on the chorus. For some reason I can see the same notes, but played on the lower register. What do you think?

 

Drums...I am not sure; I know it is quick and rough, but it needs IMO something very gentle, like brushes or so...and also a bit monotonous, as the song is delivering some sort of helpless feeling. Do you agree?

 

NEXT STEPS:

 

I will have the time to re do a track with the acoustic guitars on thursday this week, since I am off from work; I will sing on it and post it again, so that you have some "cleaner" material to work on.

 

dbd1963: great if you wanna take the bass line once I am done with that file, so that we can move forward.

 

Once bass, main vocals, and acoustic guitars are done, we need advice and the following:

 

1: some vocal harmonies. Volunteers?

 

2: some guitar arrangements throughout the whole song. Again, volunteers?

 

3: drums: ...oi that is tough...anybody could fix that?

 

4: Other arrangements? could be extra guitars, or small keyboards, or other sound solutions to give this song some hooks

 

Well. lets see what happens once the the skeleton of the song is done: thursday that is, I hope.

Post reply here for the other parts; I will try to co-ordinate the whole thing. Too bad we dont have the same time zone! Well...at least we all love music;)

Thanks again, M

[dbd1963]

Yes the drums aren't meant to be any kind of real deal, I just used them to find the beat. Here's how I selected them -- I looked in the folder that said "110bpm" and there they were. That's all that went into that. I should have pulled them off before I uploaded but I thought it sounded a bit naked..

 

The 2nd chorus I did play it lower, it was one of the choices I left you in the post I made about what I did. As it happens, I had just begun to get fond of the upper notes, but at first I favored the lower ones like you do.

 

I also played a number of different notes on the short breaks before the verses -- the last was clearly not right, but the other two seem to have slipped by unnoticed so what I would probably do is repeat the 1st one for the final note, leaving the second one as it is since it seems to provide some tension there.

 

The drums are going to be a problem since I've only seen one drummer posting here (there may be others but I don't know that they are). I recommend one of us going begging in the drum forums if someone doesn't pipe up soon.

[Floophead3]

my friend is a drummer but I don't know if we can get a recording of drums to you before the end of the week, busy with exams. I'm definetely feeling some lead guitar hooks, I'll see if I can add them in today.

[Floophead3]

I've completed a version with only a bassline (no drums), took a good 10 takes or so but it's such a good song I don't mind =D

 

A few flops perhaps here and there but nothing terrible, should be a good sample bassline that you can decide whether to use or not. I do a few things substantially different than dbd and others the exact same completely by coincidence. Use whatever you want.

 

Unfortunately, my soundclick page died on me since I hadn't touched it in so long

I made a new one, but it might take a bit to get cleared. I'll repost here when I can link to it. Would've put it on myspace but I'm not that desperate