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WORSHIP LEADING


skempe

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I've been writing and recording since the mid '80s and have been involved in the Worship Community in my church for about that long as well.


I'm currently collecting material (and a few more contributors) for an Alternative Christian Indie release under my pseudonym (my name here as well as on most other forums I frequent). I have several pieces selected, and as soon as the personnel is in place, we will begin reworking them and recording in my PC-based MIDI home project studio.


Recently I attended a Worship Conference with Brenton Brown, Tim Highes, Al Gordon, JD Walt and others. They covered everything from songwriting methods (which differed greatly between Tim and Brenton), introducing new music to your team (which Tim demonstrated live for us, with the studio musicians they'd hired for the conference), continuing education, practice, focus, etc. It was a very full day, with TONS of note taking, lol!


I'm mostly in the Synth and Recording forums here, and I can't tell you how many CCM/Worship people there seem to be here at HC! I think a forum dedicated to the specific challenges tackled within both the Christian markets as well as in Worship leading would be a great addition here.


The only challenge in such a forum would be to try to damper the "God sucks" trolls, and the potential (immature) Christian backlash. As long as the trolls weren't fed and were occasionally weeded out, I think it would be fine. It would also need to stay as ON topic as possible, to also avoid potential fires from getting started. A "read before posting" Sticky outlining some very basic respectful guidelines and careful Moderation should be sufficient.


I'm new here, but I've Moderated at a couple of the largest forums on the planet (VwVortex, CarLounge, Motive, etc) before, and would be willing to help out here.


Who's with me?
:)

 

Just curious--as I have never believed in categorizing music why the need to categorize people--why is it necessary to let people know your spiritual beliefs---should it not be transparent in your actions---in the music?Other than this I guess I don't see anything wrong with making a section for certain people who want to sectionalize themselves from everyone else--I just don't get it---especially when it comes to MUSIC!

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Just curious--as I have never believed in categorizing music why the need to categorize people--why is it necessary to let people know your spiritual beliefs---should it not be transparent in your actions---in the music?Other than this I guess I don't see anything wrong with making a section for certain people who want to sectionalize themselves from everyone else--I just don't get it---especially when it comes to MUSIC!

 

 

I hope you have read this whole thread, there's already a pretty good description of the reasons here, but I'll try to illuminate further.

The point isn't to 'let people know your spiritual beliefs', it is to allow those with similar and related beliefs - which necessarily place them in the same specific and unique musical market - a place to relate on a more focused level, without being obnoxious in the regular forums.

 

Even though the focus is strictly music, as stated earlier in the thread, instead of talking about Coltrane or Steve Vai, we're more likely to be discussing Phil Keaggy or Rich Mullins. It's just a completely different culture, and that musical cultural difference would be the only reason for this forum. I hope that makes more sense.

 

Thanks!

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I think you'd immediately run into problems if the forum was not open to all religions. That's not any kind of official opinion, or anything, but I strongly suspect that a Christians-only forum would not fly.

 

That said, I suspect a worship music business oriented forum would end up being mostly Christians because the worship-as-show-business model is most firmly entrenched in that worship community.

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maybe don't need a new forum. maybe just need a title warning heading in regular forums:

 

Caution: Religious Content

 

 

I'm only half joking. Given how much songwriters expend their energies on the downside of things - hurt, pain, sadness, lonliness, depression, etc etc, there should be some outlet to discuss songs that present the upside of things; spiritual renewal, answers to life's questions, happiness and fullfillment, help in troubled times, "peace like a river", etc. These are things that religious/spiritual songs relate to. And to pretend that religion hasn't had a huge effect on music is to pretend too far.

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This is very much my feeling, 3rd!

 

I'm a big fan of traditional American gospel music. I listen to a lot of folk, blues, bluegrass, and trad gospel.

 

And when you listen to a lot of traditional folk music you see why the religious music has such an emphasis on uplift... When I listen to my old folk and bluegrass faves it seems like every other song is about 1) the death of a child, 2) the murder of an unfaithful lover, 3) the murder of a girl or woman by her rejected suitor, 4) the death of one or both parents, 5) a mining disaster, or 5) having to put down a beloved dog or horse.

 

 

But Christian devotional music is hardly the only spiritually themed music I listen to and gain emotional or spiritual succor from.

 

As I quoted influential American Christian writer Flannery Connor earlier: Everything that rises must converge.

 

Of course, I realize that simple thought flies in the face of some folks' doctrine.

 

But that's doctrine and dogma for you... it often seems bent to support the earthly success of its purveyors.

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I think you'd immediately run into problems if the forum was not open to all religions. That's not any kind of official opinion, or anything, but I strongly suspect that a Christians-only forum would
not
fly.


That said, I suspect a worship music business oriented forum would end up being mostly Christians because the worship-as-show-business model is most firmly entrenched in that worship community.

 

I'm not aware of any non-Christian commercial worship music industries, but that doesn't say they're not out there. Generally, it seems Christianity may be the only belief structure so entrenched in music as a form of worship - aside from meditation (Buddhist, Islam, etc), which is a completely different thing and doesn't relate to CCM in the slightest. None of the other genres out there have the "market" culture that CCM has, and their styles, etc, wouldn't relate enough to warrant being 'thrown in' with a Worship forum. The entire point of that kind of a forum would be for people of like mind to openly share ideas and techniques for a specific market, and there simply isn't any other market like it.

 

But, in today's world of everything having to be "PC", if it's an "all or nothing" approach the powers that be would want to take...Unless "all" means "all Christians", I'd say skip it. It would be difficult to keep all Christian groups (Protestants, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc., etc.) on-task, you throw Muslims and Hindus into the mix and you'd have been better off in the general forums. There comes a point where a market segment can stand on its own, and the compulsion to include all beliefs removes the very distinction that set the group apart in the first place. I'd say add a CCM/Worship forum, and if you get a lot of Buddhists complaining, give them a "meditative music" forum of their own.

 

:thu:

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Well, if one is looking for religious exclusivity -- a public forum owned by a publicly traded commercial entity is probably not the place to try to implement it. ;)

 

It's not so much a matter of political correctness but rather basic societal issues... as soon as one starts trying to exclude someone else from a public forum based on their religious affiliation, I think you're going to have problems, social, political, and economic.

 

 

If one wants a private club, I think you have to start talking about private money backing it.

 

 

I have to say, I was pretty sympathetic to the whole idea until the "Christians Only" sign went up.

 

 

Who would Jesus have excluded?

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It's not a matter of exclusivity, all would be welcome, just like synth guys are welcome in the bass guitar forums...The issue is relativity. How much good is a pro analog synth programmer going to be to a group of pro 5-string fretless players?

Unfortunately since it's a religious topic, I don't expect many people to understand the distinction without getting their religious sensitivities offended.

 

The only distinction I would have made would have been in the "read this first" sticky, and it simply would have stated the purpose of the forum (Worship leading and related topics), but without being all wishy-washy and PC about it (ie: I wouldn't have added a bunch of garbage verbiage about "whoever your god may be", etc.).

 

If you water something down too much, at some point you just have to throw all the individual forums away and have a "Harmony Central Forum" including everything with no sub-forums.

 

Am I making any sense here? :)

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As a non-christian, can I be offended that the christian music community doesn't want to talk to me about songwriting techniques simply because my religious views don't aline? I'm a good person, I pay my taxes...I even pay them on time! I even volunteer at the local food and animal shelters. But, I'm not christian. I'd be led to believe that such exclusionary forums wouldn't be tolerated, since then you'd need to start other forums for the Muslim, Jewish, and Hindu religions to make them happy as well. Dialog between musicians is important, dialog from a wide group of musicians can expand your horizons and make you a better musician. So lets keep this musical...and make the world go round.

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Is it indeed a very good way of expressing our thoughts on worshiping God, by music. By means of leading your way to others, putting up a band or something that shows eveyone even if it's a rock song it is a music oF praising Him. :thu:

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As a non-christian, can I be offended that the christian music community doesn't want to talk to me about songwriting techniques simply because my religious views don't aline? I'm a good person, I pay my taxes...I even pay them on time! I even volunteer at the local food and animal shelters. But, I'm not christian. I'd be led to believe that such exclusionary forums wouldn't be tolerated, since then you'd need to start other forums for the Muslim, Jewish, and Hindu religions to make them happy as well. Dialog between musicians is important, dialog from a wide group of musicians can expand your horizons and make you a better musician. So lets keep this musical...and make the world go round.

 

 

Some good points here, and I'm glad someone brought them up in this thread. First, THANKS for paying your taxes on time, something we all need to do! :thu::D

 

If a forum like this existed (which seems very unlikely at this point) it wouldn't be exclusionary, and you'd be welcome to read, post, whatever, just like everyone else, so there's no reason to be offended.

Likewise, posts started in this forum should be focused on music as it related directly to Worship leading, CCM, or other very narrowly focused issues, so it shouldn't take away from the Songwriting or specific instrument forums - again, no reason to be offended there, either.

 

It's not about who's better, who wants to share with whom, or even who's different...It's about a different market, and Christians aren't the only ones dealing with it. A non-Christian producer working with a CCM project could come in and ask why the band he's working with wouldn't consider a "Free Bird" cover on their project, etc. It would be nice if as Christians we just explained our difference of opinion on something, let it roll off our backs and move on with life, but some of us are very sensitive and easily offended (even in the music industry) and non-Christians sometimes need another Christian to ask about it.

 

Again, it's not about being exclusive, or elite, or whatever could get read into it; it's simply about being able to specifically discuss something that maybe some of us wouldn't be comfortable bringing up in the general forums. It's a safe place for Christians to ask Worship related questions without worrying about non-Christians being offended, thinking we're "cramming our religion down their throat", or getting tired of hearing about Worship issues. Hopefully it would be a forum where trolling against Christians would be able to be kept in check, so every time someone mentions God, Worship, etc, we don't get the "check out my new Christian-slaughtering song lyrics", or "there is no god", "your god took my sister", etc., etc., posts, lol!

 

It's really that simple.

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Michael Blue:

 

Very well thought out. I'm not offended by this idea in anyway, just wanted to see these issues discussed. The fact remains that if you give one group privileges, other groups will come knocking demanding the same privileges. It's teetering close on exclusionary (I'm not saying it is exclusionary...but this website has no religious affiliations, so this may be asking for trouble.)

 

But Christians are welcome to submit their songs here...even speak openly of their love for the lord. There are many Christian songwriters in this forum, so it's not like there is a Christian minority here. So I'm a little unsure why a separate forum is needed. Personally, I want my songs listened to and critiqued by a wide range of personalities and musicians in different genres. Gives a much broader base for feedback...which is a positive...in my opinion. Again, I'm not knocking the idea, I think a lot of thought should go into this however, to prevent problems with non-christian groups.

 

I too, detest when people act ill-willed toward any group of people for expressing their religious beliefs. I think our moderator, blue2blue, does a great job keeping the forums friendly and open to everyone...I could be wrong, but I don't think this forum really has many problems with people saying nasty-religious-bashing-comments. And we do get a few gospel/christian songs every now and again, and I can't recall one nasty comment.

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...Personally, I want my songs listened to and critiqued by a wide range of personalities and musicians in different genres. Gives a much broader base for feedback...which is a positive...in my opinion...

 

 

I completely agree. IF there would ever be a "Worship" forum, I would hope it would be as "on-task" as possible, and that anything that can be posted in the normal forum, would be. Really, the only things I would see posted in the W forum, would be conversation specific to Worship. This would be issues relating to: the act of Worship leading (which is a vocation for a lucky few), writing worship-specific lyrics, use (and modification) of specific worship songs (one area where a pass on the "no covers" rule would have to apply, lol!), Christian-specific bands and worship teams, the CCM industry in general and issues relating directly to church business where it relates to those involved in their respective Worship Communities at their local churches. I'm sure other issues would come up as well, but I believe blue2blue could help decide what belongs and what doesn't, and help handle anything in an appropriate manner.

 

Everything else; .mp3 postings for review (other than Worship "covers"), instrumentation discussion (except if for some reason it related directly to congregational issues; "what guitar/piano/vocal mix do you find best suited for a congregation being able to hear the vocals properly while still 'entering in' to worship?", etc.), etc., belongs in the normal forums. I would hope having a specific place for Worship conversation wouldn't detract at all from the rest of HCC.

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what does praising and worshiping do about song writing?

 

 

We're just talking about the possible creation of a HCC forum for faith-based musicians and songwriters. In Christian music, using music and the musicians' musical talents are a way of praising God. So for faith-based songwriters, praising and worshiping in the songwriting process is key to their song's meaning and overall message.

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what does praising and worshiping do about song writing?

 

 

Adding to the post above, the purpose of the songs is completely different, meaning that the process by which they are written is often rather different, and the values by which they're judged is also often quite different than the typical secular song.

 

In Worship, not only are we concerned with musicality and applied skill/talent, but we're equally concerned with how effectively those values are applied when measured by their ability to cause a congregation to be able to freely enter into a time of worshiping God. That's really the key, and it is completely unique to this genre. Since that is the singular cause for - and goal of - this type of music, it becomes nearly meaningless to measure it by any other scale.

 

There simply is no way a non-Christian in the guitar forum can tell you if that G7sus helps him enter more freely and deeply into worship than if you'd simply used a B minor instead. Sure, he can tell you how good your recording quality, your musical skill, your choice of instrumentation or pedal settings are for music in general, and I'd recommend using the normal forums for all of those questions...But he cannot tell you if he felt the Spirit moving in your piece, and that is where a Worship forum becomes useful.

 

Simply...For all other concerns, the other forums are more than sufficient...In my short time here so far, I've come to expect terrific interaction with serious musicians, and I'd trust an honest opinion from most people here on almost every other aspect of my work...But aside from a dedicated Worship forum, they cannot tell me if my music met it's singular and primary goal or not...To help people personally encounter God...And - for Worship music - that is paramount.

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