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Worship forum...


Michael Blue

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Actually, yes, every time a remotely religious lyric has been posted since I've been here there has at the very least been the whole "the lyrics aren't my thing" "I'm obviously not your market" etc. comments, and usually something a lot less innocuous.


Worship music is about WAY more that just musical ability, musical theory, etc.. The lyrics and meaning
are
what it's about, there's no separating the music from the meaning...Therefore you're wasting your time asking non-Christians whether it's effective or not, and generally you're just asking to get summarily destroyed by the membership here posting anything like that.


A separate forum where that can be attained without the pervasive persecution is a necessity unless the mods and Admins here want to actually start cracking down on the downright offensive slander we endure every time we post anything.


No other group can be so mercilessly ridiculed each and every time they post (and often when they don't) without someone being banned for "lack of respect for other members". The intolerance for Christians here is pathetic.


Just give us a separate forum and we'll get right out of your hair.

 

 

Hey, Michael, I missed this the first time around, or perhaps skimmed over it. But I worked backward from a quote of it.

 

I know there are parts of HC that are pretty wide-open and where there is some seriously boorish behavior -- and I avoid them, because, well, life is too short.

 

But I would like to think folks here in the Songwriting Forum tend to treat each other with respect.

 

There are undoubtedly exceptions and it's easy to be misunderstood, as well. And different people simply have different sensibilities and tolerances.

 

But I have to say, I don't think respect means indulgence. There's a difference between treating someone with respect and handling someone with kid gloves. And I don't get the sense from you, Michael, that you really want to be indulged or condescended to.

 

But maybe I should make something explicit about my own, personal sensibilities that I assumed was implicit... I, personally, think if an exclusive group of people want to only have social interaction within their own group, they probably should not look to others to provide that exclusivity.

 

 

That said, if anyone feels he is being abused or persecuted for any reason here in the Songwriting Forum, I hope they will report any such abusive behavior to the moderator -- which is currently, me -- by clicking the report post icon in the offending message or by PM'ing me.

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Let me reiterate: please report abusive behavior by clicking the report post icon in the offending message (triangle with a '!' in it in the sidebar area) or by PMing me (right cick on my avatar for options).

 

[Assuming I'm still the moderator when you read this, of course. Don't be clicking that 500 years from now to complain that Drak the Zork from Altair IV just called you a grbnrk -- because I'm planning on being retired by then. Or... you know.]

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When I say that, I am trying to be nice. Don't push your luck.

 

 

I didn't intend to insinuate otherwise, but you do illustrate my point quite well.

 

There's really only 2 issues at stake here:

 

1) Worship music is its own entity, and those not involved in it are not really qualified to comment on its effectiveness regarding its intended purpose. Sure, they can give commentary regarding musicality, but that has little to do with Worship music as it cannot be separated from its purpose.

It would be a lot like a sax player trying to critique a bass player...Sure, they know what "sounds good", but they can't generally help with bass specificities.

 

2) People not involved in Worship are generally put off by its discussion. There is a LOT of hateful anti-Christian rhetoric on this site, and I'm not going to click on "report" every time someone makes a blatantly sophomoric attempt at baiting me for an injured Christian response. It's easier to ignore them, but that doesn't help me use the forums to their best usefulness, like a dedicated forum - safe from persecution - would.

 

Having a forum set apart for those involved in Worship would alleviate both issues...Christians could ask for critique regarding their music's intended purpose from a group of peers who are qualified to comment beyond simple musical theory - Likewise, we could refrain from posting explicitly religious materials in forums where we KNOW it's going to be a land mine.

 

Worship music is nothing without achieving its intended goal - to help lead others into a worship experience - and those who aren't involved in it simply can't help critique in those areas.

 

I would sincerely hope even the patrons of the Worship forum would still be very active in many other forums, and would reserve the Worship forum for very specific conversations - Likewise I would be more than willing to help maintain respectful attitudes in that forum, regarding ALL users, CCM or otherwise. ANY intentionally derogatory posts would be dealt with according to forum guidelines. Trolling would NOT happen, at least not very often, after a short "testing" period, which I'm sure would be inevitable.

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Sure, they can give commentary regarding
musicality
, but that has little to do with Worship music as it cannot be separated from its purpose.

 

 

this is not true.

 

Bach wrote the best worship music of all time because he wrote the best music of all time period in the name of god, and there are many people who believe that he did in fact write the best music of all time period who are also agnostics, atheists, and even anti-theists.

 

if contemporary christian music is to be effective in (what should be) its goal of bringing more people closer to god, it must be perceived as good music in the secular market.

 

or in other words, the world needs less David Crowder and more Bach/Bob Dylan/U2/etc.

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this is not true.


Bach wrote the best worship music of all time because he wrote the best music of all time period in the name of god, and there are many people who believe that he did in fact write the best music of all time period who are also agnostics, atheists, and even anti-theists.


if contemporary christian music is to be effective in (what should be) its goal of bringing more people closer to god, it must be perceived as good music in the secular market.


or in other words, the world needs less David Crowder and more Bach/Bob Dylan/U2/etc.

 

 

"Can I get an Amen?"

"Amen brother."

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This may be my first post in the section of HC so please indulge me with offering an observation here.

First, Politics and religion are the LAST things that should be included in THIS type of discussion forum. Faith or the lack thereof, is a deeply personal choice. Heated arguments rapidly fire off when you get to talking about theology or belief systems.

Second, song composition and structure is independent of the message. Either the song hooks you and others to listen or it doesnt. Either you have constructed the song with good music theory or you have not.

Part of the criticism with Contemporary Christian music is based on the perception that it all "sounds the same"..nothing original blah blah blah. That too can be said of every other music genre (in my opinion).

There are trailblazers in terms of the Christian music scene. There are also coat tail riders too.

All of that said, I am a Contemporary Christian guitarist. I am writing some original stuff and playing in two bands at the moment. I do not believe that Harmony-Central is the place for ME to discuss my thoughts about religion or expression of my faith (song writing or otherwise) because it's against the rules that I agreed to abide by when I joined.

I dont like the bashing that goes on on the forums. Its on all sides. If you are truely interested in sharing with other Christian song writers, I'd suggest some of the forums targeted at Christian musicians and songwriters.

I come here to share about gear. I talk about playing in church on the EGuitar forum but its a frame of reference for the genre of music I enjoy playing. There are other places on the web that I go to talk about being a worship leader, writing songs of inspiration, etc.

My 2 cents.

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Outside of any disagreement I have with cults and panderers who attempt to brainwash and seduce the unwary and vulnerable...

 

I have zero desire to be troll bait. I don't want to see the troll, I don't want to see anyone rising to the bait, I don't want to watch people who's minds are made up continue to argue so that they can enjoy their own anger and the sound of their own (written) voices.

 

And, right or wrong, religion is troll bait in any forum on HC. Check out the 51 pages of nonsense in ANDERTON'S OWN FORUM - http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2007933. Or take a quick stroll through The Political Party.

 

A huge variety of people post in the Songwriting forum, from the proselytizing Christians to the kill-em-all nihilists. Let's keep it that way.

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I dont like the bashing that goes on on the forums. Its on all sides. If you are truely interested in sharing with other Christian song writers, I'd suggest some of the forums targeted at Christian musicians and songwriters.


I come here to share about gear. I talk about playing in church on the EGuitar forum but its a frame of reference for the genre of music I enjoy playing. There are other places on the web that I go to talk about being a worship leader, writing songs of inspiration, etc.


My 2 cents.

 

[bold added]

 

This kind of goes to what I'm suggesting -- if one wants an excclusive forum, he should start an exclusive forum. Or join an established one.

 

Pass the hat, get a $4/mo GoDaddy account, install the free Joomla BB (and other modules if you want) or another BB and there you go.

 

Or, incredibly easy and free -- start a Google Group! One can set up an invitation only membership system or open or in between. You have a clean, easy to use basic message board system, with the ability to share and post multimedia, post vids... it's pretty cool. (There are Google ads to the side but I think they may even have a pay-for ad-free tier.)

 

If you do -- please let me know and I'll add your URL and a site description to the Songwriting Forum Resources thread. :)

 

 

By the way, I was afraid this discussion might slide out of hand -- from the schoolmarmish point of view of this particular moderator [me] -- and figuring that trouble headed off early is more work I might not have to do later, I pruned a few off-topic posts.

 

No, they were not morally offensive or insulting -- but they were off-topic and starting to lean just a little toward taunting.

 

I'm not crazy about taunting. There are forums apparently dedicated to that peculiar art form and if one wants to engage in it, I belive some of the regulars in those forums will give most folks a real run for their money.

 

 

By the way -- if people don't report abusive posts here in the Songwriting Forum, how can the moderator police them? (The mod would be me, for those who are skipping around.) I can't read every post in every thread. (Heaven knows what's going on in that Cari Ann thread these days. I got tired of checking up on that.)

 

I appreciate -- heck, I applaud -- reluctance to make busy work for me, but if you see truly abusive behavior -- insults, inappropriate material, vulgar graphics, or threads containing lyric material with so-called adult topics which are not tagged in the title with an appropriate warning -- I encourage you to report it. It is what I'm here for. (If I think you're being too sensitive, I'll tell you in what I hope will be a nice way.)

 

But if I don't know about a problem, I can't address it. And if people who see abuse don't report it -- I'm not sure how fair it is for them to criticize the forum for that same abuse.

 

:)

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Personally, I don't care either way. I've been on these forums a long time, and it's a very interesting place. If someone wants to create a Worship forum, wouldn't make any difference to me. I see how it could be really helpful to some people.

However, looking at it from the standpoint of someone just discovering or coming here for the first time, seeing a Worship forum might give off the impression that this site has a religious affiliation, and it might turn new visitors off. At present this place has the reputation of being a fairly open place, where musicians can participate in the various discussions and talk about their experiences, points of view, musical preferences, etc. without worrying about having to censor themselves too much. Seeing the word "Worship" in a place like this might give someone the impression that they always have to be watching what they say. Not that this would be the right impression to have, but I do see how some people might draw such a conclusion.

Of course all they'd have to do is spend a few minutes in Open Jam to completely obliterate that conclusion. :)

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i see this potential forum leading to arguments, being an occultist and active antichristian i'd much rather see as least "yay i love god" bull{censored} as possible, but to deny someone that right is unfair, as to deny my right of saying "yay i despise god" would be unfair as well, therefore anyone's argument as to why there should NOT be a worship forum would be retorted with why there SHOULD be one, BUT, the thing is there is no specific entity claimed in this worship forum, so if i want to post something say in praise of Grom, Svek, or any other Occultic, Daemonic, Luciferic or Polytheist God i therefore CANNOT RECIEVE ANY BITCHING OR "This forum is not for you" BULL{censored} FROM ANYONE, RIGHT? right, since making a forum deticated directly to Yahweh would result in direct segregation, in which case i (and i hope many others) would demand a seperate forumn for say Lucifer, Buddah, etc etc. in that case, if it is kept an open worship forum i am in favor and must muster my disgust for Yahweh and the kingdom he so rapidly loses and loath him in silence while you all silently loath...me.

:D
my 0.2

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...BUT, the thing is there is no specific entity claimed in this worship forum, so if i want to post something say in praise of Grom, Svek, or any other Occultic, Daemonic, Luciferic or Polytheist God i therefore CANNOT RECIEVE ANY BITCHING OR "This forum is not for you" BULL{censored} FROM ANYONE, RIGHT?...in that case, if it is kept an open worship forum
i am in favor
and must muster my disgust for Yahweh and the kingdom he so rapidly loses and loath him in silence while you all silently loath...me...

 

 

(Bold added)

 

If you read both threads on this topic, what you describe is exactly what we're talking about. It would be a non-specific Worship forum. I would be in favor of protecting YOU from the same BS I'm looking to avoid.

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Right... and to the extent that you want to exclude people based on their religious beliefs, I [personally, speaking strictly as a long time observer of the marketplace of both commerce and ideas] suspect you're going to run into a high degree of skepticism regarding your plan from our corporate hosts here at Harmony Central. As part of a publicly traded corporation, they operate under a higher degree of scrutiny and discrimnatory practices will likely be seen to be highly problematic.

 

As I've said before, I think you're going to find that the easiest way to become involved in a Christians-only musicians forum is to either join an existing one (there's an idea!) or start your own -- DIY, makes us stronger and more self-reliant, and when you have total control over your forum, no one will tell you who you can or can't exclude based on whatever criteria you want.

 

 

And, finally, after reading your numerous, vivid and apparently quite heartfelt descriptions of the hostile atmosphere and persecution you feel you find here from the rank and file membership -- I cannot imagine for the life of me why on earth you would want to start a Christians-only forum here.

 

:)

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In the post immediately before yours I tell a self-proclaimed anti-Christian occult member that he would not only be WELCOME, but that I'd support his right to be PROTECTED "from the same BS I'm wanting to avoid", and you post that?!

 

 

to the extent that you want to exclude people based on their religious beliefs

 

 

Just the opposite. Forget it, no one understands, and I'm not pursuing any further.

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Blue2Blue may simply be reading the entire discussion



and earlier in this thread


Having a forum set apart for those involved in Worship would alleviate both issues...Christians could ask for critique regarding their music's intended purpose from a group of peers


and in the other thread on the subject



I believe all beliefs would have to be allowed in the forum, at least initially, for the sake of PC non-discrimination, but I doubt there would be enough members interested in most other forms of worship for it to be effective for them. Specific beliefs that are at odds with one another (Satanism/Christianity) would be an issue I'd leave to the current Admins...Since the purpose of both beliefs is to convert the members of the other, I would personally think they would need to remain seperate, just to avoid the potential powder keg of two such very different purposes asking for advice in such close quarters.

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In the post
immediately before yours
I tell a self-proclaimed anti-Christian occult member that he would not only be WELCOME, but that I'd support his right to be PROTECTED "from the same BS I'm wanting to avoid", and you post
that
?!




Just the opposite. Forget it, no one understands, and I'm not pursuing any further.

 

Apologies, Michael, if I've mischaracterized your (evolving) position!

 

As I noted, I haven't thoroughly read every post in this thread (by a ways).

 

FWIW, I've always thought you handled yourself pretty well around folks of, shall we say, seemingly antithetical views from your own. I was surprised to see you in that extremely violent/sexual (but properly tagged) lyric thread and I thought you managed to do a little better than I did in giving things an even-handed treatment. That kind of stuff freaks me out. But, hey, art [and speaking in the broad sense, here, not making qualitative judgment in any way] is not always pretty.

 

Anyway, I think this has been a worthwhile and interesting discussion and I think you've handled yourself with a fair degree of equanimity in the face of some negativity. I suspect you could indeed make a good moderator. ;)

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as to the Worship forum

 

1. what's the down side? those who want it get specialized feedback, and those of us not interested don't have to participate

 

2. if you don't like the idea of such a forum, don't go in there

 

 

honestly, why are people so threatened when someone wants a place to get feedback from others with a similar interest?

 

i don't see a problem with it

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I think a forum dedicated to the specific use of music as a tool of ministry belongs on a site devoted to ministry in the same way a forum dedicated to music as a tool of behavioral therapy belongs on a site devoted to behavioral therapy. The audience at HC is far far too broad to start creating such subforums. We'd need a hundred of them.

And you know what? Say a subforum for Music Therapy was created. Most of us would not visit that forum and would therefore miss that profound post that would be meaningful to us as non-therapy musicians.

So, worship leaders, don't be bashful. Explain your intent, your process and let us non-believers gleen what we can from your discussion out here in the open.

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I actually have had a bit of an email dialog with a friend of mine about this issue. She's deeply involved in her church, she was a deacon at one point -- and works in a secular position (church secretary) for a different church. She was also a moderator for sometime on the Christian-oriented magazine/discussion site, www.ShipOfFools.com.

 

She commended to my attention Matthew 9:10-13, Mark 2:15-17, and Luke 5:29-32 to illustrate how Jesus spent time with all types of people and strata of society. She mentioned the responsibility of Christians to move among nonbelievers and enlighten others by example (Mark 4:21). With regard to an injunction against remaining willfully apart from nonbelievers she cited I Cor 9:19. With regard to suffering hostility and persecution, she quoted II Cor 6:4.

 

 

She also allowed as how it may well be practical -- if not necessarily ideal from the point of view of those citations -- to have a separate forum so that some actual work could get done, rather than having to perennially argue about religion with those with one agenda or another.

 

Like me, she thought that if some find this forum (HC) hostile or distracting, that a better alternative might be to find an existing worship music forum, start one's own BB, or persuade an existing religious BB to host a worship music forum.

 

She even suggested that interested parties might contact Ship of Fools to see if they were interested. That said, I think some might find the attitude toward organized religion in its temporal manifestations a little, shall we say, irreverent. ;)

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She commended to my attention Matthew 9:10-13, Mark 2:15-17, and Luke 5:29-32 to illustrate how Jesus spent time with
all
types of people and strata of society. She mentioned the responsibility of Christians to move among nonbelievers and enlighten others by example (Mark 4:21). With regard to an injunction
against
remaining willfully apart from nonbelievers she cited I Cor 9:19. With regard to suffering hostility and persecution, she quoted II Cor 6:4.

 

 

you're serious?

 

someone says "I want a worship forum so that we can talk about worship music without the constant interruption of people who don't get it"

 

and you come back with

 

"it's your job to proselytize and suffer for it?"

 

:love:

 

this is a musical board. if some people think they will benefit from having a forum dedicated to discussing religious music in peace, what's wrong with that?

 

basically the problem seems to be interference from those who "dont' get it."

 

well, ok ... let's give them a place to discuss their thing in peace

 

again, if YOU don't like the idea of such a forum, YOU don't have to go there

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I was just sharing my friend's thoughts. I'd done some googling on the issue of Christians not mixing with nonbelievers and was surprised to find quite a number of essays and sermons on why Christian's shouldn't have interaction with nonbelievers. [Now I'm sure these people are quite far away from where Michael is and do not mean in any way to suggest that is what he's suggesting.]

 

So, I asked her about that strain of thought -- which seemed somewhat contrary to my understanding of much of Jesus' teachings. I know she knows the Bible quite well so I was interested in her take and the scriptural basis. (She did mention that there are a number of circumstances in which there's a scriptural injunction to keep to fellow believers, but it's fairly limited.)

 

 

Far be if from me to try to tell anyone how to live -- and I suspect that would be my friend's feeling as well.

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blue2blue, I hope an open reply without quoting is OK here...If I wander off, feel free to redirect me. :D

 

1) Thank you for the compliment. I've been on the internet for well over a decade now, and have had my share of shouting matches, and have come to the conclusion that life is just too short for drama, and that arguing on the internet is in fact a lot like the now infamous poster that belies that subject (I can link it if you need ;) ).

Regarding the Mod topic; If there are any openings, I seem to hang out most in Songwriting, Recording and Synths, but would help out wherever I could - even if that ended up not being in the now apparent mythical Worship forum. :D

 

2) Yes, my viewpoint on this has been a bit Darwin-ish, that is to say, evolutionary. I haven't illustrated them more clearly because anyone reading the whole thread (there may be 1 or two of us now, lol!) would see that I'd opened my viewpoint a bit later in the thread. Thanks for your understanding of an evolving viewpoint.

 

3) I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the thought and time you've put into this topic, even though it does not appear in the end to have been a fruitful one. Your willingness to take the conversation to others outside of the forum, people who you trust on the subject, really surprised me, in a good way. Thank you!

 

4) Regarding the Christian walk and whether we are called to mingle or to be set apart; it's a tough line to draw. The only real and honest answer is; both. We are NOT called to be hold up in some ivory tower casting judgement on the world, but to - as you stated so well - lead by example, and to let God's work in our lives impact the lives of those around us. The church I attend has a banner on the wall in the sanctuary; "Visibly demonstrating the Kingdom of God".

On the other hand, we are commanded not to enter into certain types of relationships, or allow certain types of people to unduly impact our lives. This does not mean we hate certain people, only that we aren't to be a part of certain lifestyles (witchcraft, prostitution, homosexuality, etc).

 

Where it concerns something like this forum, Eclepto Funk summed it up pretty well. Not looking for a "perk", just a place to be reviewed by peers, less likely to encounter harsh feedback from people who don't know what we're trying to accomplish. I would hope everyone would be welcome there, but the hope would also be that only people who have some experience with worship music of some kind would offer specific critique on that subject alone. I've also stated all along I would hope that even those posting there would continue to use all the other forums for anything not specific to worship.

 

5) I guess since the dedicated Worship forum looks to be impossible, that I would ask that there be possibly a new regard for respect concerning religious lyrics.

 

Thank you for mentioning my post in the other graphic thread. This is exactly the kind of tolerance and ability to get along that Christians don't generally receive - even when they give it - and I've never understood that. I can be completely tolerant of someone posting a lyric proclaiming the worthlessness of God, or something else nearly as offensive, and - even though personally I completely disagree - I can still give some critique to the quality of what I'm reading, without feeling the need to self-importantly throw my $.02 in regarding how wrong I believe said lyrics to be.

I realize such tolerance is very difficult to come by, and that is why I felt the need to attempt to establish this forum.

 

6) For those still thinking it was for a "perk" or "something special", honestly, I feel ashamed as a group that it would be needed. If anything, it's really a "knock" on people expressing any religious view, that we needed to be segregated to avoid offending the general populous here.

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basically the problem seems to be interference from those who "dont' get it."

 

 

I think that canm often, be the case

 

The rub therein is that each individual can think "Oh, I get it...its the other guy who doesn't" within and among different areas of and takes on faith

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I think that canm often, be the case


The rub therein is that each individual can think "Oh, I get it...its the other guy who doesn't" within and among different areas of and takes on faith

 

 

 

That viewpoint falls short of the point of the would-be forum, however.

While I doubt (with "Read Me"'s posted) many people would be interpreting works from people from other faiths (I, for instance, wouldn't even try to critique a Hindu on the purpose of his music, I'm not familiar enough with his beliefs to know if he accomplished his goals with it), there certainly WOULDN'T be any bickering regarding differences in the faiths that would ultimately be represented there.

 

Maybe "Worship forum" would even be the wrong name for it..."Safe Harbor" would be better, except that it fails to define the religious (notice I didn't say "Christian") nature of the forum. It would have been a singular forum where people with any religious slant to their lyrics could post their tracks for others with similar musical goals to critique them.

 

Now, just because I may not feel compelled to personally comment on an artist's work wouldn't mean he couldn't feel he understands my work enough to post about it...As long as there would be understanding, tolerance and respect - something generally missing on the regular boards (particularly where it concerns Christian music) - anyone could post whatever they wish, as long as it had a reason to be in that forum.

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