Question To Songwriters: Do You Consider Yourself A Poet?

[Cliftonb]

With song lyrics I like to keep it neutral. Within a song there may be some poetic-sounding parts as well as some non-rhyming prose, a small sliver of a hastily recalled narrative, and some unguarded questions and concerns about whatever is weighing on me at the moment.

 

I'd rather keep it conversational than poetic. Paddy McAloon was a master of songs with those types of lyrics.

[Ides of March]

I like to write with imagery and let the user draw a picture in their own head of what is going on in the song. Sometimes I use a poetic type style in my verses and sometimes I don't. Do I consider myself a poet? I consider myself a songwriter and a poet, because I do have a collection of poems I have written.

[blue2blue]

For me, a lot of the same techniques that went into my poetry -- metaphor, imagery, narrative.

 

For me the intent is the same: to try to communicate some normally hard-to-pin-down aspect of life or emotion, to evoke a sense of that in the audience... to illuminate some facet of a life and somehow get that across the impassable, impossible gulf of human attempts at communication.

[Lee Knight]

 

Are you just looking at the thread to be entertained by silliness then?

 

 

I don't mean it disrespectfully. I read the question and asked myself the question. As I ran down the logic. The farther in a got, the more apparent to me it be became...

 

Why would I try to limit who I am by labeling myself?

 

That might sound condescending but I'm sincere. I think it's a mistake to do so. So the reason I'm posting in this thread is not to deride as much as to represent an alternate point of view.

[StreakerOfinsky]

 

Yes. Words have denotative and connotative meanings, but I do not subscribe to deconstruction and its aporetic methods when it comes to words, texts, etc. It's easy to descend into Hell, but getting out of it is rather difficult.

I'm guessing that "Yes" was an answer to "In other words, you believe that there are factually correct definitions of words or something?", but the rest of your comment had nothing to do with that, which made me unsure whether "Yes" was really an answer to the question I'd asked.

 

It would be difficult to disagree with words having denotative and connotative meanings (although I suppose someone might do it, but that would be an unusual view), but you can agree with that while either believing that there are factually correct definitions or not. I believe there are not. That there are denotative and connotative meanings has nothing to do with whether the meanings (or definitions--I make a distinction between the two) are factual, so that they could be factually correct or not.

[StreakerOfinsky]

Why would I try to limit who I am by labeling myself?

well, all words are labels. You're not just silent all the time--you've been typing here.

[Stackabones]

 

I'm guessing that "Yes" was an answer to "In other words, you believe that there are factually correct definitions of words or something?", but the rest of your comment had nothing to do with that, which made me unsure whether "Yes" was really an answer to the question I'd asked. It would be difficult to disagree with words having denotative and connotative meanings (although I suppose someone might do it, but that would be an unusual view), but you can agree with that while either believing that there are factually correct definitions or not. I believe there are not. That there are denotative and connotative meanings has nothing to do with whether the meanings (or definitions--I make a distinction between the two) are factual, so that they could be factually correct or not.

 

 

I think you understood the "yes", but I get the feeling you don't know about deconstruction, which I didn't mean to throw out there even though your position (perhaps unknowingly) is aligned with it. Every so often, some of my literary background pops up in unusual places, and I need to remember that many, especially in songwriting forums, haven't had the chance to pursue literature or literary criticism. I thank you pointing this out and reminding me to more charitable in the future. Mea culpa.

 

We probably agree on a few points, while differing profoundly and fundamentally on quite a few more. Vive la diff

[tbry]

I don't consider myself a poet mostly because I have never intentionally written a poem...some Haiku...I did take an Emily Dickinson poem and added a refrain and came up with this...she is a much better writer than I am.

 

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7456125

 

Hope

Emily Dickinson

 

Hope is the thing with feathers

That perches in the soul

And sings the tune without the words

And never stops at all

The little bird is the hope

That perches down in the soul

[StreakerOfinsky]

 

I think you understood the "yes", but I get the feeling you don't know about deconstruction, which I didn't mean to throw out there even though your position (perhaps unknowingly) is aligned with it. Every so often, some of my literary background pops up in unusual places, and I need to remember that many, especially in songwriting forums, haven't had the chance to pursue literature or literary criticism. I thank you pointing this out and reminding me to more charitable in the future. Mea culpa.   We probably agree on a few points, while differing profoundly and fundamentally on quite a few more. Vive la diff

[Stackabones]

StreakerOfinsky, this is something I'm really not interested in pursuing further in this forum. To settle this, let's just say that you win and I lose, or that we agree to disagree, or whatever terms you'll accept. It would be unfortunate for you to blow your cover just to go deeper into this topic or for us to continue to hijack this thread -- and, quite honestly, I've had quite enough of this issue in my own academic past. It's a rerun I've seen too many times.

[Jerry Atrick]

but I do not like to trumpet credentials too much, especially because I don't want to break anonymity.

 

Are you famous?

 

J/K

 

I don't think you'd break anonymity to tell a bit about your background unless you wish to cite specific works. I say trumpet away

 

I own a stack of poetry books all of which I have not even read yet. Having read biographies of Bob Dylan, Townes Van Zandt, Jim Morrison, etc I know for a fact that many great lyricists also voraciously read poetry and, dare I say, consider(ed) themselves poets. I wonder what accomplished poet, author, and songwriter Leonard Cohen would think of all this debate

[Jerry Atrick]

I agree. It's very odd. A little reading would do wonders to correct such misguided notions. btw, you're sorta new. Howdy!

 

Thank you

[StreakerOfinsky]

StreakerOfinsky, this is something I'm really not interested in pursuing further in this forum. To settle this, let's just say that you win and I lose, or that we agree to disagree,

I wasn't even sure we were disagreeing, but okay, lol. I was really just hoping to clarify the couple things I had asked/said.

[StreakerOfinsky]

I don't think you'd break anonymity to tell a bit about your background unless you wish to cite specific works. I say trumpet away

In my experience (interacting online since 1993), it's best to just avoid it.

[Etienne Rambert]

I've had poems published a couple of times. (Univ. of Texas & I think U.W.V.)

Same publisher, same poems, different volumes. In fact, the publisher just

emailed me last week about a new volume.

 

Poetry is easier to write IMO than great song lyrics. Look at Hank Williams, Ira

Gershwin or Cole Porter, Jimmie Rodgers or Irving Berlin. How do you write like that?

 

I dunno. There is a bare simplicity you have to strip down to. I haven't been gotten there yet and probably never will.

 

I can write good poetry sometimes. It's very rare I can write decent lyrics.

[jabney]

A set of lyrics does not equal poetry - except by coincidence. A set of lyrics for a three minute song allows for fewer choices and side-trips than does the less-structurally-limited poem. The temptation to over-oscillate at first exposure to such freedom may be why some poems seem to seek infinity.

 

best,

 

john

[nuclear arsenal]

i'd have no problem calling myself a poet, but not all my songs are poems, and vice versa.

[sleepersurprise]

 

i'd have no problem calling myself a poet, but not all my songs are poems, and vice versa.

 

 

I like.

[Marshal]

 

Absolutely incorrect. YOUR songs may not be poems...others have more meaning obviously...sit there and tell me Bob Dylan isn't a 'poet'.

 

 

Bob Dylan would disagree.

[Matximus]

And somebody else needs to say this too. It's such an absurd question. Do you consider yourself a poet? If you say yes, then you're probably the kind of person that everybody else considers a douchebag. I mean, who would say that about themselves? "Oh, me? I'm a poet?" I mean, come on. It's not the same as saying you're a novelist or a songwriter or a filmmaker. You can say you're a songwriter - and it's usually taken to mean that you are one who writes songs. That's it. You're not boasting about whether they're good songs or anything. They might be. They might not be. Either way, you do write them. Almost certainly perform them. And maybe even record them. It's kinda like saying you're a dentist or something.

 

"I'm a Poet:" You sound like some kinda egomaniac that thinks they have a precious way with words. I mean, you might be a published poetry author too. But no one's gonna assume that. But there are about six people on the entire planet that actually made money publishing poetry last year. They collectively earned enough to buy a six pack. Of Shop-Rite-Brand Cola. That's what the world thinks of poets.

 

Yeah. Songwriters don't make money either. But songwriting is pretty cool and people understand what songwriters do. Performing music is glamorous, even if you're not making money doing it.

 

You're at a cocktail party. Somebody says: "Me, I'm a poet?" You really want to hear what comes out of their mouth afterwards? Don't lie. I mean, what the hell do poets do? Novelists tell stories. Poets... say beautiful things??? Express their feelings with words that rhyme? Write poetry books? Teach poetry? What the hell does it mean?

 

Not to pick on poets. I love people that are brilliant with words. Songwriters. Authors. Even actual poets. Bukowski's my number one main man forever. That Emily Dickenson stuff is tight. But teenage hacks and amateurs have kinda ruined the every-day use of that word. And it's too bad too. Poetry was like the best ever stuff way back when. People were crazy about it like Avatar.

 

And this whole thread fits into that context. I mean, the term is mostly used these days as an honorific for people that are good at some other standalone art form that the world still appreciates. Oh, Bob Dylan? He's a poet? Aaron Sorkin? His dialogue is so brilliant. It's poetry.

[nuclear arsenal]

i'd consider myself a poet (an amateur poet) because i've written probably a hundred pages worth of poetry, compared to maybe 20 of prose. not because i think it's particularly good or anything. it's not like when a musician calls himself an artist, which seems, to me, much more pretentious.

and you can't compare every hack poet to rimbaud or ts elliott, just like you can't compare every person who paints to picasso, or compare the carpenter who fixed your door to jesus or some absurdity like that. it doesn't demean the word to use it on people who aren't geniuses.

[DL2]

I believe lyricists are vastly different than poets, and I am the former.

 

I'm not claiming to be any good, but I've done it a few times.

[SomeoneYouKnew]

 

And somebody else needs to say this too. It's such an absurd question. Do you consider yourself a poet? If you say yes, then you're probably the kind of person that everybody else considers a douchebag. I mean, who would say that about themselves? "Oh, me? I'm a poet?" I mean, come on. It's not the same as saying you're a novelist or a songwriter or a filmmaker. You can say you're a songwriter - and it's usually taken to mean that you are one who writes songs. That's it. You're not boasting about whether they're good songs or anything. They might be. They might not be. Either way, you do write them. Almost certainly perform them. And maybe even record them. It's kinda like saying you're a dentist or something. "I'm a Poet:" You sound like some kinda egomaniac that thinks they have a precious way with words. I mean, you might be a published poetry author too. But no one's gonna assume that. But there are about six people on the entire planet that actually made money publishing poetry last year. They collectively earned enough to buy a six pack. Of Shop-Rite-Brand Cola. That's what the world thinks of poets. Yeah. Songwriters don't make money either. But songwriting is pretty cool and people understand what songwriters do. Performing music is glamorous, even if you're not making money doing it. You're at a cocktail party. Somebody says: "Me, I'm a poet?" You really want to hear what comes out of their mouth afterwards? Don't lie. I mean, what the hell do poets do? Novelists tell stories. Poets... say beautiful things??? Express their feelings with words that rhyme? Write poetry books? Teach poetry? What the hell does it mean? Not to pick on poets. I love people that are brilliant with words. Songwriters. Authors. Even actual poets. Bukowski's my number one main man forever. That Emily Dickenson stuff is tight. But teenage hacks and amateurs have kinda ruined the every-day use of that word. And it's too bad too. Poetry was like the best ever stuff way back when. People were crazy about it like Avatar. And this whole thread fits into that context. I mean, the term is mostly used these days as an honorific for people that are good at some other standalone art form that the world still appreciates. Oh, Bob Dylan? He's a poet? Aaron Sorkin? His dialogue is so brilliant. It's poetry.

Dude you have some serious issues. Get a grip.

 

I'm a poet.

 

No, that does not mean I "say beautiful things". It means I write short pieces of work where I create images and situations with words. I cause people to think and use their imagination. In short, bite-sized collections of words, filled with metaphor and symbolism.

 

Sometimes the poetry I write is pleasant but just as often, it's troubling. Or dark and mysterious. Or clever and punctuated with a twist.

 

"Beauty" is no more a prerequisite to poetry than it is to painting or drawing. But in the case of (written) poetry, the page is the canvas and words are the paint.

 

 

 

 

 

There is a good deal of commonality tools of poetry writing lyrics. Rhythm and meter, careful use of repetition in strategic locations, rhyme, alliteration, assonance, etc.

 

I started writing poetry to get a handle on writing lyrics. But I've come to learn there are some very important differences. Some things that work well on the page don't necessarily have the same impact when spoken or sung. And melody can provide other opportunities to punch up the importance of a line that you don't have with the written word.

 

One of the most important tools in writing songs or poetry is knowing when to leave gaps and be ambiguous. Allowing each reader/listener the opportunity to draw their own conclusion about the meaning, is the difference between it being a craft and it being an art.

[StreakerOfinsky]

"I'm a Poet:" You sound like some kinda egomaniac that thinks they have a precious way with words. I mean, you might be a published poetry author too. But no one's gonna assume that.

I do not assume that they're published, necessarily, but just that they write poetry. I don't see why it's a big deal. It's not as if it's difficult to write poetry. I see the question in the thread as simply, "Do you see lyrics as poetry, or do you make some distinction between the two, and if so, what distinction?"

But there are about six people on the entire planet that actually made money publishing poetry last year. They collectively earned enough to buy a six pack. Of Shop-Rite-Brand Cola. That's what the world thinks of poets.

What does it matter if they made money, though? I don't know if anyone made money flying kites, but what's wrong with having that as a hobby?

"Me, I'm a poet?" You really want to hear what comes out of their mouth afterwards?

I do more than if they say, "I'm a broker" or something like that.

Don't lie. I mean, what the hell do poets do?

Write poetry. Poetry is different than prose. It's not that complicated.

an honorific for people that are good at some other standalone art form that the world still appreciates.

That's the usage that I don't get. Being a poet just means that you write poetry. It doesn't imply that anyone is going to think that it's good poetry.

[Matximus]

Yeah. First guy. I stopped reading after the "I'm a Poet" quote in bold. I know. I know - you were just quoting me. But I still lost all immediate interest just reading thsoe words. You were right on about needing to get a grip, though. Totally.

 

Other guy.

 

Brokers are 1,000 times more interesting and contribute way more to the world than poets. They understand more about how the world works too. A a Poem is Beautiful! Enlightening! Inspiring!! Enriching!!! Yawn. Money matters.

People that find it dull tend to be the types that have just enough of it to be able to afford to care about pleasant - but generally useless - distractions like poetry...