Old men Songwriters aren't as good as Young men Songwriters

[blue2blue]

If you can't discuss or argue intelligently, it's time to leave the thread.

[DukeOfBoom]

Just going through my lines until you give up or give in. You might stick around long enough to see it happen to the next guy.

 

 

It seems that the following is Chicken monkey argument:

1) I am Chicken Monkey

2) I am old

3) My songs when I'm old or better than songs i wrote when young

4) All songs written by old men or better than young men songs

 

I can't connect the dots here, sorry.

[Greg_L]

It seems that the following is Chicken monkey argument: 1) I am Chicken Monkey 2) I am old 3) My songs when I'm old or better than songs i wrote when young 4) All songs written by old men or better than young men songs I can't connect the dots here, sorry.

 

 

This chicken monkey geezer is pretty full of himself. He's good for a laugh.

[richardmac]

I think that young guys are more likely to create "the next new sound," to write pop songs, and to be more in tune with the latest musical fads. I also think that it is possible for songwriters to improve with age. I would also say that when I look at my music collection and list my favorite songs, 95% of them were written by guys who where 35 or younger when they wrote them.

 

So I would say I agree that in most cases, younger songwriters are better than older, but not in all cases. The previously mentioned Neil Finn is a good example - the last Crowded House album is some of his best writing in the past 15 years.

 

But generalizations like this are of limited value in real life. I don't care how old or young an artist is. I'll like their music or I won't. Some young people, however, won't listen to any music made by anyone over 35. With age often comes maturity.

[blue2blue]

 

This chicken monkey geezer is pretty full of himself. He's good for a laugh.

 

MODERATOR TALKING:

 

Apparently, you guys can't take a hint.

 

If you want to talk about songwriting, you're in the place to do it.

If you want to play infantile, schoolyard games, baiting people, you're in the wrong place.

 

 

This forum may be open to people as young as 14 -- but we've never had any real problems with teenagers acting like children.

 

I don't see why a pair of supposed adults can't be expected to refrain from acting like obnoxious ten year olds.

I suggest you start acting like adults. Or leave the forum.

 

 

Just in case you need to brush up on the rules: WELCOME to the SW FORUM / Guidelines / Resources :: :: :: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

 

 

Treat each other with respect This is a zero tolerance zone for insults, trolling, or drive-by cruelty .

Zero.

[kurdy]

From what I recall, the songs I wrote in my late teens-early 20s kinda sucked. There was one song I wrote back in my college days that everyone liked--mainly 'cause it was repetitively catchy and had a lot of energy--but the majorty of crap I wrote back then, I think isn't really worth resurrecting.

[kurdy]

I remember reading a quote from Joni Mitchell somewhere--saying that the way you first break onto the scene is the way you are remembered--something she hadn't considered when she was starting out, but wish she had.

When the general public first becomes aware of an artist that has breakthrough success with a hit song or album--everything the artist does from that point on will be judged against what first made them famous.

For instance, one of my favorite bands is Arcade Fire. who have been around for close to a decade now. Most everyone says their breakthrough debut album was their best work, yet it's my least favorite album of theirs. Their second album is my favorite--to me it definitely contains the strongest line-up of tunes (perhaps not coincidentally, that album was also my introduction to their music). Yet that's the one that most people seem to consider their weakest efffort. And of course, their latest release is getting similar criticism--although it's good, it doesn't quite match up to the first, etc--that their debut should've been the one to receive the Grammy, etc. The way audiences are introduced to the artist is the way they want him/her to stay, regardless of the merits of the artist's later work. Of course, there are some bands that put out crappier music as time goes on, but I think subjective opinion plays a greater role than one might think.

[DukeOfBoom]

I remember reading a quote from Joni Mitchell somewhere--saying that the way you first break onto the scene is the way you are remembered--something she hadn't considered when she was starting out, but wish she had. When the general public first becomes aware of an artist that has breakthrough success with a hit song or album--everything the artist does from that point on will be judged against what first made them famous.

 

 

this makes sense. So if you were to break-through, how would YOU want to be remembered?

 

I would want to be remembered as a Virile Tiger.

[grace_slick]

Hey Duke...so young females can't write any good songs? What do you class as "young" and what do you class as "good" songs? Only rocky, angry ones? No lighter stuff...

Maybe you compare the peak of songwriting to the sexual peaks of men and women. Men reach their peak early and then it drizzles away...women don't reach their peak until later, 30-40 and onwards...eh?

[DukeOfBoom]

Hey Duke...so young females can't write any good songs? What do you class as "young" and what do you class as "good" songs? Only rocky, angry ones? No lighter stuff...

 

Lucinda Williams' recent Buttercup is a great example of a very good song that she wrote. I enjoy Amy Winehouse too, but she's basically the brain child of Mark Ronson.

 

 

Maybe you compare the peak of songwriting to the sexual peaks of men and women. Men reach their peak early and then it drizzles away...women don't reach their peak until later, 30-40 and onwards...eh?

 

Men are virile from 18-55 and beyond. Women, on the other hand, lose their desirable characteristics of the flesh after age 30.

[grace_slick]

Nooo, I don't mean women being desirable to men, I mean them reaching their sexual peak for THEMSELVES. It's later than for men.

And virility doesn't equal sexual peak. Viagra is a billion dollar industry, my flacid friend.

[DukeOfBoom]

Nooo, I don't mean women being desirable to men, I mean them reaching their sexual peak for THEMSELVES. It's later than for men.

 

 

In terms of the flesh, any man would rather have a 25 girl then a 45 woman at her "sexual peak" as you say. I don't buy your numbers either way. Why would a woman reach menopause a year or two after her "sexual peak"? That's a FAST decline IMO - a little too fast.

 

But, why are we talking about sex here anyway?

[grace_slick]

Hey, I don't know. I just read stuff. If a woman's sexually mature around 30-40 or 50, that's not my doing. I just hear about it. And these days, menopause comes after 50-60...so they've got a couple of decades of good sex before everything declines.

And everything comes down to sex...*stroking your leg* LOL I'm too old for you though. Over 30. Undesirable. *sorrow*

[DukeOfBoom]

Well what you read is wrong. Cosmo isn't generally a good resource for scholarly articles.

Here: http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/11/16/the-sexual-peak-myth/

Basically, the 30-50 year old sexual peak is a myth created by older women to make themselves feel attractive again. This is coming from a well-known sex & relationship expert

[grace_slick]

Are you so bored you'd look all this up? lol

[svejkist]

Mike Ness has been a full-time rock and roller since his father kicked him out at 15 in 1977. Personally I think his best song, out of a very large catalog of great songs is 2000's "Don't Take Me for Granted."

 

 

[svejkist]

 

Well what you read is wrong. Cosmo isn't generally a good resource for scholarly articles. Here: http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/11/16/the-sexual-peak-myth/ Basically, the 30-50 year old sexual peak is a myth created by older women to make themselves feel attractive again. This is coming from a well-known sex & relationship expert Later on this is summarized in less feministic and more universal terms with this statement:

 

 

That article is amazingly misogynist.

[svejkist]

 

And everything comes down to sex...*stroking your leg* LOL I'm too old for you though. Over 30. Undesirable. *sorrow*

 

 

Right around the time women really get interesting, sexually and otherwise. Well, 35 anyway.

[grace_slick]

Ya see, Duke? He agrees. lol. I'm 32.

[Surrealistic]

One other thing I'd like to add. If we're talking here primarily about post-1950's pop in all it's various forms which, at its core, is music primarily by and for kids*, It's hardly surprising that most of what's considered good comes from young songwriters.

* Yes I know there are hundreds of glaring exceptions to this but I think no more so than to the initial argument.

As an aside, to the comment that every man would rather have a woman of 25 than a woman of 40 - sorry but that's total BS. If you're a very young man I'm sure you won't believe me but trust me on this. Again, there are exceptions but mostly you grow out of thinking that way.

[grace_slick]

Duke is a young man...very young. He knows not of the ways of the world.

[Greg_L]

MODERATOR TALKING: Apparently , you guys can't take a hint. If you want to talk about songwriting, you're in the place to do it. If you want to play infantile, schoolyard games, baiting people, you're in the wrong place. This forum may be open to people as young as 14 -- but we've never had any real problems with teenagers acting like children. I don't see why a pair of supposed adults can't be expected to refrain from acting like obnoxious ten year olds. I suggest you start acting like adults. Or leave the forum. Just in case you need to brush up on the rules: WELCOME to the SW FORUM / Guidelines / Resources :: :: :: PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING Zero.

That's cool. I apologize. Does that apply to chicken monkey too? You might wanna remind him as well.

[richardmac]

 

Women, on the other hand, lose their desirable characteristics of the flesh after age 30.

 

 

Young people are experts and authorities on lots of stuff, until they get older and realize they didn't know what the hell they were talking about.

[LeonardScaper]

I think that there may be a correlation of sorts between sexuality and songwriting.

Younger folks tend to be spontaneous and somewhat aggressive whereas as we mature we learn how to be a bit more specific and controlled, traits that can be very desirable in both songwriting and love.

I suspect, btw, that the Duke has not yet had the pleasure of the 'singing' of an older and more experienced woman.

[richardmac]

OK, let me rephrase, because my previous post was slightly harsh. Here is the reality of how men perceive women and it is a reality that men learn as they grow older...

 

In general, when it comes to the women immediately around you, men (meaning 18 years old or older) will set a floor (usually 18) and a ceiling (usually two years older than the man currently is) for what he considers to be an attractive or desirable age in a woman. Thus, a man who is 23 might be attracted to 18 to 25 yo women. These numbers will vary, but the concept is true. With me?

 

OK, so the reality is that as the floor does not increase with the same pace that the ceiling does. So a 45 yo man (which I happen to be) will be attracted to women between 21 and 47. See how that works?

 

At 21 years old I would have said that 21 yo women are attractive and 47 yo women are not. At 45 years old, I say that BOTH are attractive. Your attitudes change over time, and I would argue that they change for the better. If I could go back and trade places with myself at 21, I wouldn't. Life is much better and more full now. But that's just me.