Members honeyiscool Posted October 25, 2011 Members Share Posted October 25, 2011 As I've started writing my own music, I've become hypersensitive to the fact that so many songwriters are extremely lazy when it comes to matching syllables with melodies. For me, it's simple. There should be one syllable per note. The Beatles were always good at this kind of thing, and as far as I care, whenever I'm writing lyrics, there can be no leeway about this. Not only that, when you read the lyrics out loud, the natural meter of the words should follow the meter of the melody. If you can nail this, it doesn't matter if the words make sense. It becomes easy to sing along to. Just say this sentence out loud: "Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away." The natural meter of the words matches EXACTLY with the song melody. And that's why the song sounds effortless, even though it was apparently a huge pain to write. But so many artists don't do this. Many of my favorite writers, even. I saw Elton John this weekend in Vegas, and I never thought about these things before, but I now notice that he has so many lines where he's trying to fit a lot of words into a melody, especially in his second and third verses. I think it might be because of his writing process, where the lyrics are written by someone else, he starts fitting melody to lyrics, and then by the later verses they're not fitting perfectly. You know, even his classic songs have blatant examples of this like "so excuse me for forgetting" or "from the young man in the twenty second row/who sees you as something more than sexual." Too many words! No wonder he cuts out some of those words out when playing live. Ultimately, I think this is the weakness of writing lyrics separately from music. Usually, my method of writing starts from writing a chorus, then finding a melody for the verse, then writing the lyrics to verses. The second (and third) verse, then, is finding words and phrases that match exactly the meter of the verse melody. Although this process can drive me nuts, at least I don't have the problem of fitting three words into one note, you know. I'm not saying I write better songs than Elton John, by the way. I'm just saying that at one thing, meter, I feel that I do a much better job. Oh, and I hate that there are songwriters who seemingly purposefully do not shy away from accenting the wrong words. I remember hearing a Lady GaGa song where she pronounces "other" and "o-THER" and thought, that is so lazy! She seems like a very bright young lady and knows enough about music that she knows how lazy that is, that pop songs shouldn't really do that. I mean, "Like a Prayer" always matches syllables to melodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted October 25, 2011 Members Share Posted October 25, 2011 I agree with you in spirit, but most of the examples you cite don't really bother me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sologrrl Posted October 25, 2011 Members Share Posted October 25, 2011 I personally don't agree with it. I like the disconnect. I am an oddball for obscure unknown stuff so maybe it's just the styles I listen to but I really enjoy it sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted October 25, 2011 Members Share Posted October 25, 2011 Most great art breaks rules, but the breaker of rules is usually also expert at using the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted October 25, 2011 Members Share Posted October 25, 2011 Most great art breaks rules, but the breaker of rules is usually also expert at using the rules. What are the rules regarding syllable count? I honestly have never heard of them. In regards to the OP, I think it depends on the genre. Being that I'm not a rock/pop-centric listener I routinely hear a lot of things that most songwriters would say doesn't really work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Matximus Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 You're confusing good singing with good performing - the material should be designed to cater to one or the other (if not ideally both). A lot of songs in modern pop are heavily influenced by American folk music - and these songs ignore traditional rules of melody and rhythm. That is because this music was developed by untrained musicians that relied on instinct, guts, and emotion more than studied skill to put their songs over. This is why this music is so affecting. The one to do the most to popularize this style of singing - where songs are sold on moxie more than precision - would be Bob Dylan. He put the flat blues/folk style of singing into pop/rock. It had been in country for years. My favorite country singer Roger Miller was a free-wheeling yodeling fool that skat-acted his songs more often than he sang em. That's what makes those songs so cool. Elton John - a very good singer - comes out of early American R&B. A lot of that music was designed to let the singer meander off key, off-beat, whatever it takes to sell the song to get the message across. Macca had a big dose of the big band, tightly-crafted Vaudeville song-stylings in his heart - his daddy was a working musician and he grew up on those songs that were hits before your mother was born put together by pros. That's why he was crossing and T's like a good little maestro on Yesterday. John Lennon didn't have as much old-school Schmaltz in his musical vocab as Paul - his biggest lessons on keeping it tight came from Smokey Robinson. Big Smokey student. Him and Chuck Berry. Well, and Paul, too, obviously... he learned a lot from his partner. When John Lennon heard Dylan it gave him permission to get more creatively emotional about himself in his songs- Paul still kept it cerebral and Schmaltzy even when he did the folkie political song story thing Bob taught him - Blackbird, Rocky Raccoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 What are the rules regarding syllable count? I honestly have never heard of them. I'm suggesting that the craft of songwriting has developed 'rules' of its own. These should be general guidelines for the novice writer who can break them all when he has developed the ability to do so with intended effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 I'm suggesting that the craft of songwriting has developed 'rules' of its own. These should be general guidelines for the novice writer who can break them all when he has developed the ability to do so with intended effect. I wholly disagree and have never understood the "lear rules to break them" mantra in songwriting, but I know that everyone has his/her own personal goals and approach with regard to creating music. With that said, if someone wanted to be like Schurig, Penderecki, Salonen, or Boulez then yeah, some rigorous education and rules-learning is involved. But for an individual who just wants to write pop songs then I really don't see the point in all that academic stuff. Me - I don't care about breaking rules 'cause I never learned any in the first place. I know what I want hear and I just do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oldgitplayer Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 Me - I don't care about breaking rules 'cause I never learned any in the first place. I know what I want hear and I just do it. OK - so you're a natural, and don't need the benefit of understanding how great songwriters did it.I'll bear it in mind next time you post a song for some input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 OK - so you're a natural, and don't need the benefit of understanding how great songwriters did it.I'll bear it in mind next time you post a song for some input.. Great songwriters are great songwriters and I can name many highly accomplished composers and songwriters that inspire and will continue to inspire me, but their aims and approaches are much different from mine. In my case learning "how they did it" wouldn't be of much benefit to me because their "it" and my "it" are worlds apart. Education? Certainly. I've spent over a decade straight of R&D and experimentation with every music style and musical idiom that I could access. And I'm constantly listening, learning, and being inspired. Depending on the person and their aims certain rules may apply. In other cases it's up to the individual to make it up as they go along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted October 26, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 Elton John - a very good singer - comes out of early American R&B. A lot of that music was designed to let the singer meander off key, off-beat, whatever it takes to sell the song to get the message across. Macca had a big dose of the big band, tightly-crafted Vaudeville song-stylings in his heart - his daddy was a working musician and he grew up on those songs that were hits before your mother was born put together by pros. That's why he was crossing and T's like a good little maestro on Yesterday. Well, I do recognize that it's a matter of aesthetics, which is why I stated that I like a lot of these artists who do not strictly match syllable to melody, and that some of these figure to be my favorites. That said, with Sir Elton, I wonder how much of it just arises from him not writing the words himself. You will find that his first verses and choruses actually match syllables a lot tighter than second and subsequent verses, and that's exactly what you'd expect from someone fitting music to poetry and not the other way around. When given more structured lyrics, as in Tim Rice, he seems to write tighter as well. I think John Lennon may have gotten more abstract as time went on or whatever, but the way he matches syllable to melody stayed pretty textbook IMO. I like it that way. It seems more economical, easier to sing along to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yump Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 i am a "as long as it fits" type. poetry, i think is another story, to put to music. music and lyrics and melody go together, especially when sung to the music or music written for a monologue. how boring music would be if it was just a formula? although.....lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yump Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 besides, isn't the lyrics the melody? i need schooling. [video=youtube;CUxUbYUHExs] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted October 26, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2011 For me, it's simple. There should be one syllable per note. The Beatles were always good at this kind of thing... What? Hey Jude: "Tale a sad song, and make it be-tter-er-erLet it Be: Let it be, let it be, let it be-ee-ee We Can Work it Out: Life is very short, and there's not ti-eye-eye-eye-ime If you're saying that people cram to many words into small spaces, OK, sure. But I think your definition in the quote above is not quite right in describing what you're talking about. In the above cases we have multiple notes per syllable. I'd like some clearer examples of what you're describing. I might agree but I'm not sure exactly what it is you're saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted October 26, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2011 What are the rules regarding syllable count? I honestly have never heard of them. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted October 26, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2011 With that said, if someone wanted to be like Schurig, Penderecki, Salonen, or Boulez then yeah, some rigorous education and rules-learning is involved. But for an individual who just wants to write pop songs then I really don't see the point in all that academic stuff. Disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 Disagree. Like I said, academic rules-based approach to music may be necessary based on that individual's goals - though I totally fail to see the point for your typical verse-chorus-verse pop song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry_L Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 The lyrics should tell your story. If you need more syllables to do that, then the melody has to adjust. But it's worth considering rephrasing if things get too awkward, to avoid overloading a line to the point that it's un-singable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry_L Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 Oh, and I hate that there are songwriters who seemingly purposefully do not shy away from accenting the wrong words. I remember hearing a Lady GaGa song where she pronounces "other" and "o-THER" and thought, that is so lazy! She seems like a very bright young lady and knows enough about music that she knows how lazy that is, that pop songs shouldn't really do that. I mean, "Like a Prayer" always matches syllables to melodies. The altered pronounciations often irk me, too, but sometimes you have to do it to tell the story and make it fit. It can be creative and playful fun if the subject matter is not serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members saturn1 Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 The altered pronounciations often irk me, too, but sometimes you have to do it to tell the story and make it fit. It can be creative and playful fun if the subject matter is not serious. Perhaps it is directly related to the mutant gene that gives me a fondness for puns, double entendres and other linguistic twists, but I appreciate a certain amount of creative pronunciation. Donovan (a 60's - 70's era singer/songwriter for anyone perhaps too young to know the reference) could be counted on to toss a couple in on most every song. I should probably try to write more country songs. That is a genre that is built on multiple meanings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 I use trick rhythms to get all the syllables I need in sometimes. I think the problem comes when such a strategy leads the singer to a corrupted rhythm, that, is, when he simply can't negotiate the required syncopations. There should be one syllable per note. [...] Not only that, when you read the lyrics out loud, the natural meter of the words should follow the meter of the melody. If you can nail this, it doesn't matter if the words make sense. Yeah... for you, maybe. Few things bug me like a meaningless phrase used simply because the songwriter can't find something meaningful that fits. It's like reading a line that seems to serve no purpose other than to support a rhyme scheme. I'm not saying corrupt the rhythm; but I am suggesting that, for me, a phrase that is there -- especially a meaningless phrase -- simply to fit the requirements of rhythm or rhyme is a deal-breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted October 26, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2011 Like I said, academic rules-based approach to music may be necessary based on that individual's goals - though I totally fail to see the point for your typical verse-chorus-verse pop song. Because there's too much typical lately. So learning the accepted structures of the past informs the rule bending and breaking of the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 I'm not someone who subscribes to the notion that every verse has to have precisely the same melody and rhythm for the vocal... perhaps because I can seldom even remember the rhythm and melody from verse to verse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 But it's worth considering rephrasing if things get too awkward, to avoid overloading a line to the point that it's un-singable. No line is unsingable with enough syncopation and beat slicing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bee3 Posted October 26, 2011 Members Share Posted October 26, 2011 I just heard Tracy Chapman's "Fast Car" at lunch. Lots of syllables. Great song. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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