Lenny's Opus

[LeonardScaper]

Hmmmmm.....the problem is that this verse is accomplishing a great many things for me. It continues the blindness thing while bringing in the aspect of hearing (thanks OGP ).

At the same time it isolates the character and brings him to his next destination...the sea. This seems to be very important.

I'm going to the bottom

Don't follow me

It'll be dark down there

So no one needs to see

I will listen to the voices of the waves I am riding

Then I'll dive down to the bottom

The bottom of the sea

[LCK]

Okay, then, try this:

I'm going to the bottom

Don't follow me

It'll be dark down there

So no one needs to see

I will listen to the voices of the waves I am riding

Then I'll dive down to the bottom

let the darkness cover me

LCK

[LeonardScaper]

Maybe......tell you what......later today I'll post a snippet of how it is working so far with the music. Just some guitar.

This verse is pivotal at this point so......I'm grinding on it a bit.

[LeonardScaper]

I have been grinding a bit on the second piece. I hope you all don't mind if I use this thread as a sounding board for my works in progress.

I am tentatively calling the project "Journey To Cliff's Edge". I want to bring my character on a reverse journey of sorts and leave him standing on the edge of the cliff in wonder. Perhaps Cliff's Edge will even be a place.

Here is the rush of the second piece...very rough. I put the beginning of the first in to demonstrate what I have in mind as far as transitions. Don't really think this will work, however, as who will really listen to a group of songs together.

Anyway....it goes something like this.....

http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...&q=hi&newref=1

I need to be at the bottom

Don't want to see the stars above

I need to be at the bottom

So that's where I'll be hiding

Just me at the bottom

I guess I've given up

I'm going to dive down to the bottom

I'm going to the bottom

Don't follow me

It's dark down there

So no one needs to see

I will listen to the voices

Of the waves I am riding

As I dive down to the bottom

The bottom of the sea

brief instrumental

I am diving to the bottom

I will stay right here

Until my eyes have opened

Until everything is clear

Until my eyes have opened

I'll stay right here

Until my eyes have opened

Until everything is clear

Until my eyes have opened

I will stay here at the bottom

I will stay right here

It's cold here at the bottom

But that's ok

'Cause it's the same old situation

Where I know I can't stay

If only I could see my way

Clear

Because I feel strange pressures

And I hear strange sounds

It's like I'm stuck in stasis

It's pulling me down

I'm gonna stay right here though

Til I come back around

instrumental

Until my eyes have opened

[grace_slick]

Again, very interesting.

[TTognaci]

Dam Leonard....the music is very creative.......nothing in the form of nits jump out at me....I really dig this sound....first rate.

The vocal could be stronger....but I honestly couldn't tell you how!

Great groove, guy! -Tom

[oldgitplayer]

Lenny - this might just be the English in me, but we use the word 'bottom' as you have, but it is also used in the way Americans use 'fanny' and 'heinie'.

So the constant use in the song sounds odd to my Brit sensibilities.

Is there an alternative ? Does it need an alternative?

I need to be in the depths

Don't want to see the stars above

Down in the depths

So that's where I'll be hiding

Just me in the depths

I guess I've given up

I'm going to dive down to the depths

I'm going down to the depths

Don't follow me

It's dark down there

So no one needs to see

I will listen to the voices

Of the waves I am riding

As I dive down to the depths

The bottom of the sea

[Monkey Uncle]

Hi Lenny,

I like the way this one segues into the relative minor of the key from the first song. So it's basically in the same key, only darker. I'm not sure yet about keeping the same tempo; it seems a bit fast and bouncy for the subject matter. But maybe that's a rhythm issue rather than a tempo issue.

I'm finding the lyric to be a little too repetitive and a little too on-the-nose. Instead of just telling us over and over that you're going to the bottom, how about describing what it feels and sounds like? Or maybe tell us a little something about how you got there, the trip down, etc. You do get into some good imagery in the last two verses; perhaps there is room to bring that sort of description in a little earlier. Even just changing a few of the repetitions of the word "bottom" to some synonym would be a big help. But I wouldn't go so far as to excise the word completely, as OGP suggested. "Bottom" anchors the meaning of the song; it has an ominous feel that "depths" and other synonyms can't match. You just don't want to over-use it.

As for the overall project, I like where you are headed. I think you've laid out a very nice concept. Don't worry about whether people want to listen to a multi-song project; there are enough of us old farts still around who remember the heydey of album rock.

[LeonardScaper]

 

Originally Posted by TTognaci

The vocal could be stronger....but I honestly couldn't tell you how!

 

Hey, Tom......thanks.

Yeah that vocal was just a raw track. When I tune up those lyrics I'll see if I can find some beef in there.

 

Originally Posted by oldgitplayer

we use the word 'bottom' as you have, but it is also used in the way Americans use 'fanny' and 'heinie'.

So the constant use in the song sounds odd to my Brit sensibilities.

Is there an alternative ? Does it need an alternative?

 

Hmmmm.......well, I wanted to get him all the way down right away...to the bottom. I think that in this version the repeated use of the word is excessive.

 

Originally Posted by Monkey Uncle

Instead of just telling us over and over that you're going to the bottom, how about describing what it feels and sounds like? Or maybe tell us a little something about how you got there, the trip down, etc.

 

Perhaps I should shorten this entire piece. I intend for the third piece to suddenly lighten up, with a softer tempo, some nice fluid instrumentation and a turn toward a more descriptive and uplifting message. But I felt the need to get kind of harsh and...minor first to set that up.....hence that heavy guitar thing (that was FUN!).

If I could tack this directly on to the first piece and still keep the combined movement under 5:00 it might properly set the listener up for the change that I have in mind.

[rodney_wrinkles]

This is such an intruiging piece so far. I have listened to quite a few of your songs, Leonard, and I have thoroughly enjoyed them all.

This particular vignette seems like a real work of art to me. I hope you do more like it in the future.

[LeonardScaper]

Been grinding all day on the second piece which is now certainly destined to become one with the first. There are a number of lyric changes as per your excellent observations. I also noticed that in the first version I was rhyming hiding and riding in the wrong places so I fixed that.

That is something I would have never picked up before....I have all of you to thank for that.

Anyway....this version clocks in at 2:17 and when tagged to the first should come in at around 4:45. Should make for a good opener. It rocks nicely too.....should set up the third piece well. Check it out if you like. I think it's missing something in the break after the first two verses.

Oh....before I begin the third piece I'm going to meld these first two into one and post that. Any comments will be appreciated.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...&q=hi&newref=1

I need to be at the bottom

Don't want to see stars above

I need to be at the bottom

So that's where I'll be hiding

Just me at the bottom

I'm gonna dive down

I will sink in to the depths

Where no one else can see

I'll listen to the voices

Of the waves I am riding

It's dark down there

So I will be free

To dive

To the bottom of the sea

instrumental ( needs something)

I am diving to the bottom

And I'll stay right here

Until my eyes have opened

Until everything is clear

Until my eyes have opened

Until my eyes have opened

Until everything is clear

Until my eyes have opened

I will stay right here

It's cold here at the bottom

But that's ok

'Cause it's the same old situation

Where I know I can't stay

If only I could see my way

Clear

'Cause I feel strange pressures

And I hear strange sounds

It's like I'm stuck in stasis

And it's sucking me down

I'm gonna stay right here

'Til I come back around

[LeonardScaper]

Thank you, rodney......I appreciate that.

[rodney_wrinkles]

Perfect, in my opinion.

I have heard a few songs by highly respected and experienced artists that are similar to this in terms of the sort of stream of consciousness songs strung together and also the idea of a kind of internal desperation that becomes overwhelming to the point of having to go right down to the bottom before eventually submerging with a clearer vision. I find with these types of songs, the listener can reach a place of almost complete insulation with the music. Everything else is blocked out, as it is for the character also while they are down there. It's very intimate, which is interesting because the character is isolated from everything, deeply ensconsed in his own consciousness, but ultimately, he is not alone.

[LeonardScaper]

 

Originally Posted by rodney_wrinkles

......the character is isolated from everything, deeply ensconsed in his own consciousness, but ultimately, he is not alone.

 

This is very good......and very helpful in this project.

Thanks.

[rodney_wrinkles]

Oh good! Pleased to know I've helped in some way. I think it is very important to know that the character is not alone...despite how he feels, he must know he is never truly alone. And hopefully when he emerges from the depths (and he will emerge), this will bring him some comfort.

[rhino55]

Still loving this!

The second one is a great compliment to the first. I think the chorus does a good job of explaining of why you need to be on the bottom, but you haven't explained why he is blind or more specifically what blindness means, which I could see you explaining in the third piece before he confronts what it will take to see again, presuming of course that is where you are taking it.

However I think the first verse needs to be slightly reworked. Leading with him saying "I need to be..." doesn't jive with the picture you've painted thus far. I think uncertainty is what should bring him down.

I can't see the stars above

I might as well be at the bottom

So that's where I'll be hiding

I can't see the point in fighting

Maybe I need to be at the bottom/I'll just let myself sink to the bottom

I'm gonna dive down

[rodney_wrinkles]

This thread should not be tarnished by spam. Reported.

[Got rid of it! Thanks Rodney! -- the mod]

[LeonardScaper]

 

Originally Posted by rhino55

Leading with him saying "I need to be..." doesn't jive with the picture you've painted thus far. I think uncertainty is what should bring him down.

 

Hmmmmm........need to consider this as it is a very important distinction.

My first reaction to your astute observation is that he actually is quite aware of his plight and even though he does not know specifically how to 'get right' he does have an instinctual feeling about what he must do....or maybe where he must go.

I'll be tracking the bass for this one during the day today and during that process I'll let this idea stew a little.

[Lee Knight]

 

Originally Posted by oldgitplayer

Lenny - this might just be the English in me, but we use the word 'bottom' as you have, but it is also used in the way Americans use 'fanny' and 'heinie'.

So the constant use in the song sounds odd to my Brit sensibilities.

Is there an alternative ? Does it need an alternative?

I need to be in the depths

Don't want to see the stars above

Down in the depths

So that's where I'll be hiding

Just me in the depths

I guess I've given up

I'm going to dive down to the depths

I'm going down to the depths

Don't follow me

It's dark down there

So no one needs to see

I will listen to the voices

Of the waves I am riding

As I dive down to the depths

The bottom of the sea

 

^^^

Just some thoughts.

First things first. I love this new one. Second, I live with a Brit who likes to kid and tease and say things like "OOhhhh I see your BOTTOM!" And, "Is that your smelling bottom again?!?!?!"

To which I reply, "No hon, it's my ass."

So, as always, this is all a judgment call by the writer of course. Butt it was what came to my mind as well. Not the use of the word bottom, butt the repetition of it. And one potential avenue to explore before it is buttoned up would be to explore some alternative words to the repetition. Some words that not only offer relief from all that "ass talk" , butt offer some light as well.

The first line is great and says what you want to say. The last "bottom" of this stanza nicely wraps up the thought like a matching bookend. Butt the middle one feels like a third cheek, so to speak.

I need to be at the bottom

Don't want to see stars above

I need to be _______

So that's where I'll be hiding

Just me at the bottom

I'm gonna dive down

Look at some of the alternative word ideas from a thesaurus here, and note how they begin to move in to architectural territory. Foundation, brace, etc. Under-footing. The means of support. Is this why we all need to "hit rock bottom" at one time or another? To see where it is the subfloor lies? And lower, to see the poured concrete of our foundation? And the tightly packed earth below. We all stand on the shoulders of our mentors and our gardian angles don't we? Is this why the bottom is so important?

Bottom: foot, lowest point, lowest part, Astron. nadir, Astron. perigee; foundation, groundwork, understructure, substructure, substratum, understratum, underlayer; pedestal, footing, Archit. socle, Archit. plinth; support, prop, stay, brace; baseboard, dado, wainscot, underpinning.

I need to be at the bottom

Don't want to see stars above

To see what I've been standing upon

So that's where I'll be hiding

Just me at the bottom

I'm gonna dive down

Then the next stanza makes more sense to me and really begs your payoff line

I will sink in to the depths

Where no one else can see

I'll listen to the voices

Of the waves I am riding

It's dark down there

So I will be free

To dive

To the bottom of the sea

Then it returns to the "bottom" motive. How about you delay the bottom and use some of that substructure imagery. Even throw in a little internal rhyme and alliteration to drill down on your point.

Dive down to the foundation

And I'll stay right here

Until my eyes have opened

Until everything is clear

Until my eyes have opened

Until my eyes have opened

Until everything is clear

Until my eyes have opened

I will stay right here

It's cold here at the bottom

But that's ok

'Cause it's the same old situation

Where I know I can't stay

If only I could see my way

Clear

I love your lyric idea. It's awesome. I do think it could use some relief and illumination from some other simple alternatives. Just some thoughts.

[LeonardScaper]

Yes....I'm still stuck a little on that word. I did try to minimize it the last version but as I have been working on combining the first two songs today I keep coming back to this issue. Thanks to the total recall of Protools I'm comfortable with leaving it for now, though, as I know that when I resolve it I can simply pull up that track and do another partial vocal take.

It's a good bet that as the project goes forward I'll find a number of reasons to change the vocals around.

For now.....I have combined the first two songs into one to see how that works. I'd love some input on that. It's a bit longer than I'd like for a first song, but......that issue is being discussed quite well in another excellent thread.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...&q=hi&newref=1

Now I'm going to rest my ears, go for a run in the rain, and then play some piano to see where the next movement takes me. I feel a strong need to bring everything down......I want him to linger in the depths and feel the comforting embrace of the primal sea.

Perhaps that will move him toward his destiny.....

[Mahuska]

Sounds great, but the instrumental section is a bit long. I might shorten the first part quite a bit then get to the Electric Guitar sooner(which is tasty)

[Oswlek]

I have to admit to not being entirely sold on the second one. The drums are distracting (particularly the snare) and it feels like the arrangement isn't quite right. I've listened to it four times now trying to hear what I would do and the only thing that jumps out is that it seems to be pining for some keys, especially in the "until my eyes have opened" part (which is my favorite, BTW).

[LeonardScaper]

Interesting.......in that I tried to keep it very basic....no keys, no frills. The next one will be almost all piano.

Perhaps those drums need to be compressed a bit more. I wanted a 'rock' sound...something that I do not exactly excel at.

[LeonardScaper]

OK...cranked that compressor and bounced it down.

Thanks, Justin. I listen to you.

And I'm glad we get to talk about this stuff.

http://www.soundclick.com/player/sin...&q=hi&newref=1

[LCK]

 

Originally Posted by Oswlek

I have to admit to not being entirely sold on the second one. The drums are distracting (particularly the snare) and it feels like the arrangement isn't quite right. I've listened to it four times now trying to hear what I would do and the only thing that jumps out is that it seems to be pining for some keys, especially in the "until my eyes have opened" part (which is my favorite, BTW).

 

+1.

I would also add to or agree with Lee's points about the repetitious language and the repetitious nature of the tune. My feeling is that you're feeling your way into this and at some point you may need to start to pare things down or add instrumentation to cover up the problem.

Maybe you don't see it as a problem. Maybe the repetition is what you want?

In a way it does kind of imply the repetitive movements of someone desperately swimming downwards, the same arm strokes and leg kicks all the way down.

Maybe you're thinking that the next "movement" in your opus will pull us out of the melodic whirlpool you've got us spinning around in and provide us with some relief from the "tedium?"

LCK