A great melody first, then lyrics,(only) THEN 'vocals'

[LCK]

 

Originally Posted by Mark Blackburn

A thousand thanks, Lee. Please check CD track details for confirmation

[Mark Blackburn]

On the drive in to work today, I divided my time between Barbra Streisand

[Mark Blackburn]

A friend and spiritual writer Henri Nouwen once summed up (better than anyone else I know) the difference between loneliness and being alone (solitude):

All human beings are alone. No other person will completely feel like we do, think like we do, act like we do. Each of us is unique, and our aloneness is the other side of our uniqueness. The question is whether we let our aloneness become loneliness or whether we allow it to lead us into solitude. Loneliness is painful; solitude is peaceful. Loneliness makes us cling to others in desperation; solitude allows us to respect others in their uniqueness and create community.

Letting our aloneness grow into solitude and not into loneliness is a lifelong struggle. It requires conscious choices about whom to be with, what to study, how to pray, and when to ask for counsel. But wise choices will help us to find the solitude where our hearts can grow in love. [More from Henri in a moment]

My

[LCK]

 

Originally Posted by Mark Blackburn

Sinatra

[LCK]

I looked into the genesis of Sinatra's album of Rod McKuen songs. It was recorded not long after his break-up with Mia Farrow in 1968. Sinatra even did some of McKuen's poetry -- spoken-word over strings, etc. -- as McKuen did on some of his most famous albums, like Stanyan Street and Other Sorrows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT-eooJZel8

This album isn't considered one of Sinatra's best, but I think it's a very interesting reflection of the changes taking place in his life at the time. It's also a concept album, something he pioneered in the early 50s.

LCK

[Mark Blackburn]

His entry at the

[Mark Blackburn]

At the bottom of the previous page (23) we 'appreciated' Deborah Cox's THIS BITTER EARTH a song written for Dinah Washington by lyricist Clive Otis, a Mississippi-born songwriter/producer of a string of Number 1 hit records in the 50s -- including LOOKING BACK, a song Mr. Otis co-wrote with a young Brook Benton.

That was a little 'out of character' for this thread -- we usually celebrate Great American Songbook standards. But then today, as if to say,

[LCK]

 

LCK

 

PS: Lee Knight posted this bit of helpful advice in the Friday Influences Thread.

 

Hey Mark, in order to embed, it's actually easier now then when you first went through this rigmarole. When you are on the youtube page and have the video you want to show open, copy the url. The actual address at the top of your browser. The whole http business, all of it.

 

Then, back here at the forum, as you're typing your post, look at the row of icons above the reply window. You see a "quote" icon. It looks like a cartoon bubble. Just to the left of that is a film strip icon. Click on it and paste that url you copied into it. Click OK and it will do the rest.

[LCK]

Originally Posted by Mark Blackburn

How can you say something new about

[Mark Blackburn]

For umpteen reasons, Lee -- I am again in your debt. Not least for posting my other favorite Lee's instructions on how even a computer ignoramus like me can properly embed a video: Now it's right here where I can find it!

I was particularly drawn to your informed and informative reflection that,

"I also always liked Richard Brautigan better than McKuen; they were both a bit touchy-feely, and they were both associated with the Bay Area. But where McKuen was an impressionist, Brautigan's work had a more surrealistic/absurdist side. McKuen was a kind of Monet for the living room wall, and Brautigan had more depth. And they both had a streak of naivete, though McKuen came off as more world-weary."

And like you, I think "4-out-of-5-stars" is the proper rating A MAN ALONE (a Sinatra album I don't yet own; not too many of those left: I'm up to 70 now).

So glad you're here, Lee Charles Kelley. Thanks again for posting (so prolifically and well). What wise soul introduced you to this place? Oh wait. It was me. Sounds like a good title for a Tony Bennett song!

[Mark Blackburn]

Not for the first time I hit a wrong button on the car radio on the way in to work and heard a song I might never have 'celebrated' here: An

[Mark Blackburn]

On the drive in to work today satellite radio

[Lee Knight]

Is it worth studying??? Hell yeah! I love the simple parallel form of:

This is a lovely way . . . to spend an eve - ning
Can't think of anything I'd rath - er do
This is a lovely way . . . to spend an eve - ning
Can't think of anyone, as love - ly as you.

The repeats separated by parallelism. It brings a charm and it brings (
Some like a night at the movies
Some like a...

To the point that the relief from that pattern is just... right. Breaking from the sequence brings the sweet truth:

But whenever I have an evening to spend
Just give me one like THIS . . .

Love it.

[Mark Blackburn]

Thanks, Lee for your (usual) insightful analysis! You're able to 'see' things about the structure of great songs that I'm not even aware of. And speaking of musical insights . . .

There

[LCK]

Originally Posted by Mark Blackburn

You and I, are just like a couple of tots,
Runnin' across the meadow
Pickin' up lots of forget-me-nots.

Mack Gordon wrote some really good lyrics, and this is definitely one of the best...

LCK

[Mark Blackburn]

I arrived early for Jerry Seinfeld

[Mark Blackburn]

Come a little closer
Stay a little longer
Now the gang is gone
Put Sinatra on
What are you afraid of?

[EightString]

This is an interesting topic to me, since I've been writing a lot of new material with the deliberate intent for it to sit comfortably within that Great American Songbook. The effect I'm going for is that an audience would have to be TOLD that they're listening to a new song, and not some classic from the 40s, which somehow slipped under the radar.

Writing wise, no matter what genre, I have a process that works well for me. First off, it's lyrics, followed by chord/song structure, then finally melody. But this is iterative, since I will often change song structure to fit an emerging melodic hook, or go back and change lyrics to flow more seamlessly with the emerging musical structure.

With all this new material I'm writing, I have had to ratchet back on my lyrics to be more accessible, steering INTO that cliche' curve just a bit. In the past, my lyric writing has been VERY esoteric, so to start creating "classic" material, I've had to play a little more to listener expectations. While I'm not writing all the way down to that "moon in June" level, I have had to learn not to be afraid of the occasional lyrical cliche' if it FITS, and it evokes a certain nostalgia, which is exactly what I'm going for in this new material.


BTW, some fascinating posts in this thread.

[Mark Blackburn]

Welcome

[Mark Blackburn]

Pursuant to your thoughtful closing words,

[EightString]

I loved the song choice in that movie, and you're right, "A Wink and a Smile" fits right in.

Of course my favorite on that soundtrack is "Stardust". Nat Cole's version gives me goosebumps EVERY TIME.

I'm performing at a venue this Saturday, and I'll be mixing my own new material in with some classics, but I'll be closing my last set with "Stardust". Love love love that song.


I know that there are some guidelines here about posting songs, but given the topic, perhaps it's okay for me to post a couple of links?

First, here is a progressive metal track of mine from over 10 years ago:

Sea of Stars

and here is a demo of one of my new "classic" jazz vocal songs:

Dreamland


I suppose you can see how my writing direction has changed... just a little.

[LCK]

Originally Posted by EightString

This is an interesting topic to me, since I've been writing a lot of new material with the deliberate intent for it to sit comfortably within that Great American Songbook. The effect I'm going for is that an audience would have to be TOLD that they're listening to a new song, and not some classic from the 40s, which somehow slipped under the radar.

With all this new material I'm writing, I have had to ratchet back on my lyrics to be more accessible, steering INTO that cliche' curve just a bit. In the past, my lyric writing has been VERY esoteric, so to start creating "classic" material, I've had to play a little more to listener expectations. While I'm not writing all the way down to that "moon in June" level, I have had to learn not to be afraid of the occasional lyrical cliche' if it FITS, and it evokes a certain nostalgia, which is exactly what I'm going for in this new material.

Hi 8-String,

Welcome to the forum!

I've been writing songs in the golden-era ouevre for almost 30 years now. From you've written above I'm not sure you've got a handle on what's required, lyrically to do that. (It's not about writing cliches at at all, but cleverly avoiding them...)

No worries, just use the website to workshop your lyrics and you'll get lots of help!

For instance, I listened to "Dreamland," which is oddly similar, topic-wise, to a recent effort of mine, which I workshopped here. If you don't mind my comments I would say that parts of the lyric are quite nice, but there are spots here and there that need a bit more spit and polish.

Just my opinion, but since the purpose of this venue is for all of us to help each other become better at our craft, I hope you'll take what I've said with that in mind.

LCK

[Mark Blackburn]

Thanks, Lee Charles Kelley. I was just thinking of you

[LCK]

Originally Posted by Mark Blackburn

Thanks, Lee Charles Kelley. The result was "Blue moon/you saw me standing alone/without a dream in my heart/without a love of my own".

In actual fact, there is another verse that comes before the usual start of the song. Both Eric Clapton and Rod Stewart used it in their recent versions of the song. The last line of this extra verse is "Life was a bitter cup for the saddest of all men."

Thanks, Mark.

I've seen one of those versions of the "Blue Moon" tune on film, I guess it must've been the last one?

And thanks for the tidbit about the missing "verse." You know, I used to have a copy of The Collected Lyrics of Lorenz Hart, but, alas, it's gone, gone, gone now. I'm sure it was in there, but I'd forgotten it.



Keep up the good work!

LCK

[EightString]

Originally Posted by LCK

Hi 8-String,

Welcome to the forum!

I've been writing songs in the golden-era ouevre for almost 30 years now. From you've written above I'm not sure you've got a handle on what's required, lyrically to do that. (It's not about writing cliches at at all, but cleverly avoiding them...)

No worries, just use the website to workshop your lyrics and you'll get lots of help!

For instance, I listened to "Dreamland," which is oddly similar, topic-wise, to a recent effort of mine, which I workshopped here. If you don't mind my comments I would say that parts of the lyric are quite nice, but there are spots here and there that need a bit more spit and polish.

Just my opinion, but since the purpose of this venue is for all of us to help each other become better at our craft, I hope you'll take what I've said with that in mind.

LCK

Sure, NP.

I don't know who said it, but I once heard or read someone say, "Don't be afraid of using a cliche' if it says what you want to say.", or something to that effect.

I look at it as a stylistic choice on my part to allow a cliche' or two into my lyrics, not necessarily a lack of understanding. I never go so far as to crib lines from other songs, so maybe instead of the word "cliche'", what I really mean is that I am trying to write lyrics that tend to regularly resolve in sync with audience expectations.

After 30 years of writing prog-rock esoterica, it's kind of refreshing to do this.

Even a song like "Stardust" (one of the more innovative examples of Carmichael's genius) uses lyrical devices that play into expectations.

And now the purple dusk of twilight time
Steals across the meadows of my heart
High up in the sky the little stars climb
Always reminding me that we're apart

The resolution of that stanza (in bold) is expected because of the setup by the word "heart" in the second line and the first part of the 4th line. When I hear the words "that we're apart", it seems that it almost HAD to lyrically resolve that way.

You've been doing this 30 years, so I'm not trying to presume to "teach my grandmother to suck eggs". (Sorry in advance for the "ageist" nature of the metaphor)

I'm just sharing some of my perspective about why I'm writing the way I do at the moment.