[MatchFive]

But no, you have to go on... o rly? Says who? How do you know? If in fact there is a being, or beings, capable of breaking all of these physical laws, how would we know {censored} all about them in the first place?

 

 

Because you're alive to argue about it?

[thinkpad20]

Because you're alive to argue about it?

 

 

You know because I'm alive to argue about it? That makes no sense.... also, how do you know I'm alive?

[Zozobra]

[Sheik_Yerbouti]

And I am accused of misrepresentation? There is too much to comment on point for point, so I will just say that I never said that the universe is 5000 years old, did I? I don't know how all that worked out, but there could have been billions of years (from our perspective) involved.. To God time has little meaning as He is eternal and is not bound by time or space..

So out of all that, all you managed to comment upon was the young earth theory that most Christians subscribe to?

Hey man, whatever gets you through the day, but when we're talking "plausibility", you've gotta admit that to someone who doesn't already "believe", your scenario, at BEST, comes off as every bit as preposterous if not more so.

[MatchFive]

You know because I'm alive to argue about it? That makes no sense.... also, how do you know I'm alive?

 

 

Because your typing on the internet and can string a sentence together?

 

When I see people and animals and trees, I don't see things that accidentally happened without purpose.. Even at the subatomic level I see design and not "happened by chance".. If the strong and weak nuclear forces were off by just a little, all atoms in the universe would either collapse or not stay together.. If the constant force of gravity were off just by a little, life would not exist.. These constant forces were set intentionally into place or no life or matter at all would exist.. All of these things points to design..

[Zozobra]

Yes... but its pure happenstance that the universe exits as it does and that some regions of it can support life. It wasnt tuned to work, things just happened out of what was available. Your whole perspective is skewed by the lust for importance for existence.

 

Why does existence, at any level, have to be important?

[MatchFive]

Everyone appeals to something as their ultimate authority.. For Christians it is the bible, for you it is your own intellect and reasoning..

"God does not exist because I can't see Him, and my senses are my ultimate authority. I'll write my own book."

Radio waves could not be perceived by the senses either, but they were objectively real before they could be subjectively experienced..

[pamackie]

Everyone appeals to something as their ultimate authority.. For Christians it is the bible, for you it is your own intellect and reasoning.. "God does not exist because I can't see Him, and my senses are my ultimate authority. I'll write my own book." Radio waves could not be perceived by the senses either, but they were objectively real before they could be subjectively experienced..

 

 

So how's that God-detecting antenna coming?

[MatchFive]

Yes... but its pure happenstance that the universe exits as it does and that some regions of it can support life. It wasnt tuned to work, things just happened out of what was available. Your whole perspective is skewed by the lust for importance for existence. Why does existence, at any level, have to be important?

 

 

The odds of just the gravitational force just happening to fall within the parameter to support life is the same as a radio dial the length of the universe being dialed into a 3 inch wide spot.. And that's just gravity.. There are other parameters that have to fall into place as well to support life..

[hahavishnu]

(some great, cosmic practical joke, perhaps?), then created a talking snake to offer the woman an apple that gives her "knowledge" (I thought we were supposed to be in "God's image", what is the Big Guy an ignoramus or something?), which, because she has the {censored}, she manages to coerce the guy whose {censored}ing RIB she was supposed to be made from into eating, which pisses off our "kind and loving/forgiving" God so much that he kicks us out of "The Garden of Eden", curses us to death, pain and hardship for eating the "Apple O' Knowledge" that HE created for no other apparent reason than to see if we could avoid the temptation to eat it, (again, insecure much?) and then allow us to suffer thousands of years ('cuz everybody knows the universe is only 5,000 years old, right?) of horrific torment, war, disease and general insanity ("In His Own Image", remember, God must be one seriously {censored}ed-up excuse for a diety!), not even cutting innocent little children a break from the violence and insanity to the point where he even allows them to suffer from unspeakably awful, vicious, agonizing and fatal diseases which, one would have to logically assume, he ALSO created, for some unknown purpose other than to apparently see how much torment they and their families can handle. And all this while DEMANDING, under pain of ETERNAL AGONY, that we all devote every waking moment of our lives to him while at the same time, refusing to provide us with conclusive proof of His exalted existence. (You know, stick your face out of the clouds every once in a while and say "'Ssssup, homies", it might make things a little easier. Just sayin'...) THAT actually sounds MORE "plausible" to you? REALLY?! Incredible.

the nipples are formed before the sex is decided

[Ripfence]

Is it open bar? If so, I'm in.

 

 

They are catholics, OF COURSE they'll have an open bar

[Sheik_Yerbouti]

the nipples are formed before the sex is decided

You're missing the point, aside from the comedic content. If GOD already KNOWS the sex, why would he bother to give men nipples? It's God's will, so the sex is already "known and decided" by Him before conception even occurs. Unless he just wanted to give women something to gnaw on, too, of course.

[thinkpad20]

Because your typing on the internet and can string a sentence together? When I see people and animals and trees, I don't see things that accidentally happened without purpose.. Even at the subatomic level I see design and not "happened by chance".. If the strong and weak nuclear forces were off by just a little, all atoms in the universe would either collapse or not stay together.. If the constant force of gravity were off just by a little, life would not exist.. These constant forces were set intentionally into place or no life or matter at all would exist.. All of these things points to design..

 

 

Yeah, that was a joke... although, really, you never know. But yeah.

 

All that we know for sure is that we're here. Nothing points to design, it just points to things being how they are. If the physical laws we know didn't work the way they do, we wouldn't exist. But we also wouldn't be around to ask that question. We are here, and everything else is where it is, because events played out in a way which caused them to be there. Now, what caused them to be there - well, in my view, it's nothing more than physical laws. You or anyone else might believe in supernatural forces for whatever reason but they are not required to understand reality. But such existence, though it does not necessarily conflict with known facts, is not required to explain them.

 

As far as "purpose" - this is a human concept and nonsensical if you are not talking about a sentient being making decisions. Consider these two questions. The first - "why am I typing this?" That is a relevant question of purpose, because it pertains to decision-making, motives, desires, etc. The second, however - "why do these words appear on my screen after I type them?" This is a rather different question for which there is no need to invoke the aforementioned qualities (motives, etc). It's simply a chain of physical events, from the finger hitting the key to the keyboard reading the information, etc etc, to the words appearing on my screen. And if you want to go further, from the screen to my retina, to my optic nerve, to my brain, and into my consciousness.

 

A religious person might answer the question "why are we here" in the same way they would answer the first of those two questions, by thinking about purpose and intent and greater meaning. I require no such explanation and see no reason why you can't answer as you would the second question - the answer being, we are here, and we exist, because of a chain of physical events leading to this present state of reality. Needless to say the full explanation of those events - as with many complicated questions - is not yet known. But I'm with Feynman; I'm fine not knowing the answer to a question. I'd rather not know than make one up.

[Sheik_Yerbouti]

Because your typing on the internet and can string a sentence together? When I see people and animals and trees, I don't see things that accidentally happened without purpose.. Even at the subatomic level I see design and not "happened by chance".. If the strong and weak nuclear forces were off by just a little, all atoms in the universe would either collapse or not stay together.. If the constant force of gravity were off just by a little, life would not exist.. These constant forces were set intentionally into place or no life or matter at all would exist.. All of these things points to design..

I do so LOVE when Christians cherry-pick just those aspects of particle physics that can be used to support their dogma while giving them the pretense of scientific credibility, then utterly ignore all the other aspects of the exact same theories which blow their entire argument out of the water.

It's just so... "cute".

[Zozobra]

The odds of just the gravitational force just happening to fall within the parameter to support life is the same as a radio dial the length of the universe being dialed into a 3 inch wide spot.. And that's just gravity.. There are other parameters that have to fall into place as well to support life..

 

 

To be blunt, so? You're getting hung up on phantom importance.

[pamackie]

I do so LOVE when Christians cherry-pick just those aspects of particle physics that can be used to support their dogma while giving them the pretense of scientific credibility, then utterly ignore all the other aspects of the exact same theories which blow their entire argument out of the water. It's just so... "cute".

It would be nice if religious people could fully believe 2 things at once:

1) There is a God, and he created the universe.
2) Scientific observation of the universe is valid, and its findings are true to the best of our knowledge.

How hard is that? How does one threaten the other? Is it so hard to accept that an incomprehensible God works in incomprehensible ways? Why can't believers accept that if a God created them the way they are, they have their brains for a reason?

[hahavishnu]

who the {censored} started all this {censored}e?

[Murdoch]

I am ashamed to say that this is located in the state in which I live.

http://creationmuseum.org/

Browse and prepare to , gentlemen.

[Murdoch]

who the {censored} started all this {censored}e?

 

 

It was inevitable. Bring up anything religious on HCAF and you might as well throw a bucket of diarrhea into a giant circulation fan.

[fretty1982]

The odds of just the gravitational force just happening to fall within the parameter to support life is the same as a radio dial the length of the universe being dialed into a 3 inch wide spot.. And that's just gravity.. There are other parameters that have to fall into place as well to support life..

 

 

For someone who believes in miracles and NOT the laws of the universe,why do you keep baning on about odds?

[MatchFive]

For someone who believes in miracles and NOT the laws of the universe,why do you keep baning on about odds?

 

 

I believe in both.. The same one who performs miracles also put the laws of the universe in place, and that was a miracle too.. You are a miracle too Fretty.. Look in the mirror and behold the miraculous..

[fretty1982]

The problem is not so much a living thing being able to evolve, but how you get the first living thing in the first place.. It's not going to happen out of inanimate objects without supernatural intervention.. Not knowing the "exact odds" does not kill the facts of it's ridiculously overwhelming improbability.. Go get a box of rocks and some water and slosh it around for a year and tell me what you end up with.. That's what you'll have after another billion as well.. The bible was not written to be an exhaustive science book, which is what the atheist would try to make it.. Created out of nothing is better than it bringing itself into being out of nothing uncaused.. The universe is expanding, and had a finite beginning in the initial singularity according to cosmologists.. It had to have a cause, and it's cause had to be supernatural as everything that is natural (time / space / matter) was brought into being by what caused it..

You're obviously ignoring the questions which are difficult for you to answer.
Even after highlighting my post 'let's talk about religion',you still try to question science instead of producing any evidence for religion.

I think I know why.

Either two things are happening here;
1.You honestly don't understand evolution and natural selection,in which case please go and educate yourself because to think we came from playing with rocks and water is quite simply pathetic.But don't take my word for it,there are plenty of books probably even websites that can explain it much better than me.I have a feeling you shield yourself from such research,becasue I'm pretty sure no-one can know about single cell organisms and be that ignorant.
2.You know exactly how it works and it frightens you to think you've wasted time worshipping something imaginary and you're creating false arguments to try and trick people into thinking the argument is balanced.

Inanimate objects didn't play any part in anything,apart from being perfectly still(hence the name).

I love the way if you don't understand something straight away,your imediate thought is that there must be supernatural involvement!Instead of something much more likely that we have all the evidence for!That cracks me up about religous people,no reasoning or thought process.

Last thing is that why are you allowed to cherry-pick parts of the bible when it suits you?It's either full-on and everything is true,or it's a book of analogies and urban myths about 'miracles' and supernatural beings creating humans out of dust.

But I'm sure you'll ignore all of this and come up with another brilliant "fact" or twist my words to suit your own argument.

Although we do agree on one thing,play with rocks and water for a billion years and yes,nothing will happen.

[fretty1982]

I believe in both.. The same one who performs miracles also put the laws of the universe in place, and that was a miracle too.. You are a miracle too Fretty.. Look in the mirror and behold the miraculous..

 

 

It's a miracle that you're allowed to walk the streets freely;)Joke.

 

Ok.

 

So you're saying the odds of life evolving through millions of years(even with the evidence of DNA,everything's related and it's been proven),are so far that it couldn't possibly happen.

 

But the odds of someone walking on water(which we know is impossible but for the sake of discussion),must be a 'miracle'.

 

Do you see my point?

 

It's starting to take up a lot of my time now which I don't have,but will do a few more replies as these things I honestly don't understand and want to hear people's opinions.

 

I took this thread off course a few pages back,in what was meant to be a genuine attempt at hearing why people believe etc for a few posts which has snowballed.That bloke was right after all,this has turned into a bit of a {censored}fest.

 

End of the day if you believe in religion and it gets you through the day that's up to you.If you do it for financial gain,to make people think you're a better person or preach to people and look down on others WHILST protecting and defending paedophiles and rapists...you're the ones I have a problem with and why I posted a bit of a rant on the first page.

[Mel Cooley]

Do you get an "I Got A Peek At The Pope" button?

[MatchFive]

You're obviously ignoring the questions which are difficult for you to answer. Even after highlighting my post 'let's talk about religion',you still try to question science instead of producing any evidence for religion. I think I know why. Either two things are happening here; 1.You honestly don't understand evolution and natural selection,in which case please go and educate yourself because to think we came from playing with rocks and water is quite simply pathetic.But don't take my word for it,there are plenty of books probably even websites that can explain it much better than me.I have a feeling you shield yourself from such research,becasue I'm pretty sure no-one can know about single cell organisms and be that ignorant. 2.You know exactly how it works and it frightens you to think you've wasted time worshipping something imaginary and you're creating false arguments to try and trick people into thinking the argument is balanced. Inanimate objects didn't play any part in anything,apart from being perfectly still(hence the name). I love the way if you don't understand something straight away,your imediate thought is that there must be supernatural involvement!Instead of something much more likely that we have all the evidence for!That cracks me up about religous people,no reasoning or thought process. Last thing is that why are you allowed to cherry-pick parts of the bible when it suits you?It's either full-on and everything is true,or it's a book of analogies and urban myths about 'miracles' and supernatural beings creating humans out of dust. But I'm sure you'll ignore all of this and come up with another brilliant "fact" or twist my words to suit your own argument. Although we do agree on one thing,play with rocks and water for a billion years and yes,nothing will happen.

 

 

I do not disagree with science.. I do disagree that macro evolution and abiogenesis are conclusively proven to be fact as they are indeed not fact.. I cannot conclusively prove there is a God, and you cannot conclusively prove there is not a God.. I am just saying that it is not unreasonable to believe in God.. One day when we die, we will find out which one of us is wrong..

 

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