Members Reauchambeau Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 there shouldn't be gas in your vacuum tubes (unless you bought em from joey dahlia ) go ahead and read through the radiotron designer's handbook and see if there is any mention of gas in a tube causing unpredictable operation. i haven't read the whole thing (who has), but my money is on there not being any mention of it. in reality, one should be able to calculate how a given tube is going to behave in a given set of circumstances. to do so across a wide range of frequencies (like the ones guitars produce) would require massive processing power at high resolution. if you fudge the calculations for, say, 100hz increments you really reduce the processing power necessary, but you also lose accuracy in the simulation. once the hardware gets where it needs to be, the software will come. one day, i'd like to be able to use a GUI to change component values on a schematic and hear the changes in real time. revalver III already does some of that, i think. well there are gas filled tubes, just not in guitar amps (my )I'm not saying there won't be incredible simulation of tube amps, there already was 20 years ago when the SansAmp first appeared. it's just that, (most) guitarists don't seem to care. playing an intsrument is an escape, an escape from the digital crap we're surrounded by daily. I think tube amps will remain the standard even moreso in the future for that reason alone. it's like fly fishing, will there be digital lures? (probably ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phaeton Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 if they're cheap enough to be disposable, who cares? and believe me, there are PLENTY of amps on the market today that aren't built as well as your DVD player Hmm... i can see a whole industry around standardized amp chassis where you can plug in various DSP modules every time there is an 'upgrade'. You know, get people to pay $300 a shot every 6 months for incremental improvements. Just like video cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ovid9 Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 Hmm... i can see a whole industry around standardized amp chassis where you can plug in various DSP modules every time there is an 'upgrade'. You know, get people to pay $300 a shot every 6 months for incremental improvements. Just like video cards. This is why in 20 years I'll be trying to figure out where to buy tubes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knucklefux Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 Hmm... i can see a whole industry around standardized amp chassis where you can plug in various DSP modules every time there is an 'upgrade'. You know, get people to pay $300 a shot every 6 months for incremental improvements. Just like video cards. i'm just gonna leave this here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phaeton Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 i'm just gonna leave this here: Ahh... That'll show me for staying out of this stuff for ~15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 One question though is, while a tube amp is pretty damn complex, its pretty much nothing compared to the hardware in a processor. (At least in terms of being able to fix stuff.)Will the fact you can fix an amp versus a computerized unit play a role in traditional amps sticking around?Or will they get them so cheap and so good that you can handle your digital amp biting it and survive? Take other digital items. Cameras, media players, etc. Used to cost a small fortune, now they are basically toss it away and get a new one. No sense fixing something you can buy for same price of just labor on the repair bill. My friend volunteers at Good Will. So far he has found hundreds of SS and modeling amps just tossed. We try to fix what we can, but most digital tech is not that serviceable unless you have access to new boards. We fixed a few Spider II and III amps that got tossed that had maybe a bad output chip or the more common FBV problem with bad resistors. We've seen a couple Marshall 8080, 8040, 8100's and Crate GFX too. We fix them and either donate them or they sell at huge discounts to lower income families. Tube tech is much easier and more parts are available. SS and Modeling amps require a lot of specialized and costly repair parts. Boards with the processor cost more than the complete unit new. Kind of like replacing an LCD in your pc monitor would cost 3x what its worth. I will say digital tech is still a long way off from realistically eliminating tubes. It's going to depend more on demand I think. If digital tech trumps tube amps for things like... sounds close enough, convenience, and realism, then tubes may soon be a thing of the past. It's the realism and that connected responsiveness to the players that digital has had the hardest time on the proving grounds. Digital has tube amps beat for convenience and other offerings. The other reason I hear most is many guitarists using modeling tech for while now are always concerned their sound is as static as other players. They can't seem to find a uniqueness in modeling. Sampling can only go so far, just like Digital drumming tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ovid9 Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 Really good post that is up above. I know. But that aspect of it kinda makes me sick. I don't want more {censored}ty throw away stuff. It pisses me off when something I bought a couple years ago breaks and its not cost effective to fix it. *Glares at the freaking remote reciever on his TV* Also, when you talk about emulating tubes, are you talking live or recorded? I'm a noob with untrained ears, but the good recorded digital stuff is pretty amazing, especially since so much studio stuff is done digitally to recorded tube amps anyway lots of the time. It will be interesting to see where the technology goes. Like that...what is it called, the processor you can hook any amp up to and it creates a digital copy of it. Insanity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 I know. But that aspect of it kinda makes me sick. I don't want more {censored}ty throw away stuff. It pisses me off when something I bought a couple years ago breaks and its not cost effective to fix it. *Glares at the freaking remote reciever on his TV* Also, when you talk about emulating tubes, are you talking live or recorded? I'm a noob with untrained ears, but the good recorded digital stuff is pretty amazing, especially since so much studio stuff is done digitally to recorded tube amps anyway lots of the time. It will be interesting to see where the technology goes. Like that...what is it called, the processor you can hook any amp up to and it creates a digital copy of it. Insanity! Line 6 and others have chartered the proving grounds for Modeling amps now for more than a decade. At first people were all meh.. but many more have been converts. It's like Vinyl/cassette to CD. More reasons than sound alone were at hand. Vinyl guys argued for years and lost. Now we have CD to digital mediums. More argue CD is better, MP3 is easier to get and sounds "good enough" for the format to basically render CD dry. Modeling and Modeling amps have taken on Tube tech. Some are even hybrid amp tech with Modeling preamps and Tube power stages. Can those users get the power stage repaired? Yeah to an extent. The rest of the amp NO. For example if HK discontinues making parts for my Switchblade in the next few years and those parts fail... well that amp is a boat anchor. Modeling tech is cheap to build but not at all cheap to service. They are either going to run into a problem of part procurement, or excessive parts cost that make the amp uneconomical to repair. If the AXE FX fails, you have to send it to that builder. No tech outside of them would be equipped or be able to procure factory parts to fix them. parts would likely exceed replacement value over time. Outside of that issue, it is expensive to set up static free work stations to do repairs on sensitive products. Another reason there are not many tech companies handling service for Line 6 etc. Add to that, warranty service DOES NOT PAY WELL. You'd need enormous repair volume. Warranty repair with vendors is also complex and pretty much a one shot. They will find ways NOT to pay your claims for repairs you did weeks previously. Not many servicers like doing this. Some up front parts stocking costs are also insane for smaller upstart companies. Tube amp repairs otoh.. many can do them as well as DIY, but many have their favorite guy in the field to handle their repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Reauchambeau Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 many good points there ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ron Burgandy Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 vox ac30's and mesa boogie mark 1's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 Yeah, my bud did warranty billing for a servicer of many brands. Speakers paid on avg $8 to repair Modeling amps- $15-20 for intermediate, $32 for major service. Wireless mic/guitar systems- avg $18 flat rate. Servicer had to own very sensitive and expensive service equipment.. ex almost 12 grand for one system just to make sure wireless systems were not out of tolerance. How many wireless rigs would you have to fix to pay for that test jig!! Other guitar amps- avg $47 to $91 max for warr service. 4x12 guitar cabs- $11-15 avg. Powered speakers (power amps troubleshoot and service to component level)- $40 avg, $20 if you replace the power amp assy. Keyboards- Those can be some expensive units, warranty rates for repair labor avg $35 and max at $88 for a more advanced and time consuming fix. Rates for warranty repairs are a joke. Same thing happened with TV/Consumer Electronic servicers etc. I worked service once for a huge warranty servicer of Sony, Kenwood, Pioneer, JVC etc. Warranty rates were awful for an independent, but if you are a big service dealer group and have thousands of repairs per month in volume, the rates are doable. Independent small shop? Warranty rates will bury your business. In all cases, vendors you support requirements for your facilities, test equipment, staying current with training, manual costs and parts cost are excessive. The bitch is when you stock parts for warranty and end up just hoarding that part when you never use it. New item turnover 2-3x/year so all those service manuals, parts etc make it difficult for independent servicers to handle doing business with warranty. COD and contracts are another story. With that, you can see why dealers and servicers just said {censored} it to fixing discmans, dvd players, etc as much as amp an music related servicers wont try to set up independent deals with many digital amp vendors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jaeger28 Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 These are not amps of today though, they're 30+ years old already. Yeah but I just saw one on ebay TODAY Actually I'm pretty sure the Cornford Mk50 will be. Numbers produced are low and it sounds awesome.Then they are handwired so easy to keep in shape if a part goes bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crunchtime Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 Line 6 will finally figure it all out and totally monopolize the market. At that time the first Line 6 amps will be sought after pieces of history. First Gen. Spider amps in good condition will go for 2K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brick Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 Hopefully my '86 2204 sky rockets in value Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mmmiddle Posted March 31, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 Awesome discussion! One thought that occurred to me, will there be modellers of the modellers in the future? Like Line 6's "INSANE" distortion, will someone come along and try to imitate that particular tone for some reason? It would be crazy but it could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zehn Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 I don't really see that happening. Inception-level modeling would just be a bit too ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markdude Posted March 31, 2011 Members Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm going to design a DI-track modeler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bbreaker Posted April 1, 2011 Members Share Posted April 1, 2011 Bogner Shiva Mesa Boogie Maverick Fender Tone Master Marshall 1987 Alessandro Redbone Coonhound Dr Z Prescription Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted April 1, 2011 Members Share Posted April 1, 2011 Early bluefaced Diezel VH4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JB6464 Posted April 1, 2011 Members Share Posted April 1, 2011 Soldano SLO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fishbowlfire Posted April 1, 2011 Members Share Posted April 1, 2011 The USA made Rivera, Ampeg, Fender, Peavey,and Winfield amps, some of more accessible "boutique" amps, and a few other American Made or British made amps. Can't see anything made in China fetching more than a "used" price. But then again I know people said that about Made in Japan guitars... Now Made in Korea are the new Made in Japan. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zozobra Posted April 1, 2011 Members Share Posted April 1, 2011 Half the crap made today wont be working in 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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