Members ctoddrun Posted July 23, 2004 Members Posted July 23, 2004 I am trying to decide what to do about amplifying my acoustic (Taylor 810). I've got an acoustic amp and a small PA to use for amplification. Last time I looked into this (before I stumbled onto this forum) the sales guy had me pretty close to convinced to pull the trigger on a one of the fishman models, the kind that sit under the saddle, piezo I suppose. Well, the need for me to have an amplified acoustic guitar went away and I never installed anything. Well, that time has arrived once again. I briefly considered trading my Taylor in on an CA guitar, but I dont think thats going to keep me happy long-term. I like the idea of picking up the Yamaha AG Stompbox for a preamp but you guys might have a better idea on how to go. I mainly stick to rock (Rush/Candlebox heaviness), with some 70's Eagles type stuff at times. Budget is flexible, I mean, I would have to give up the Taylor AND pay 500 bucks to go the CA route, through the dealer at least... Just give me an idea of how you would modify the Taylor to amplify it. Thanks for your help.
Members EvilTwin Posted July 23, 2004 Members Posted July 23, 2004 If you do a forum search, there's a plehtora of information on it. Personally, if price isn't a big concern, there's a few routes I would explore: -- Fishman dual source: internal mic with an undersaddle piezo (most likely their Matrix pickup) -- B-Band dual source: a soundboard transducer with an undersaddle piezo -- L.R. Baggs i-Beam: bridgeplate transducer, some people swear by it -- K&K Pure Western: separate bridgeplate transducers, and likewise, this has a lot of fans here There's a link on LittleBrother's homepage for a clay shim trick that all but eliminates the quack of undersaddle piezos, so you can get an even better tone with them. The Fishman and B-Band will cost more outright to begin with. A passive version of the i-Beam and PW will cost less, but need a preamp. Some of those companies' web sites have sound samples, so go check 'em out. Some guitars come stock with the Fishman dual source and B-Band AST/UST, so check them out to see if it's what you're shooting for. Right now, I'm leaning toward a K&K Pure Western for my Tacoma DM-18.
Members ctoddrun Posted July 23, 2004 Author Members Posted July 23, 2004 Well, I sent the K&K guys an email asking about pairing the Western with the Yamaha AG pre. They responded with, well, it'll probably work, but it would be better for you to use OUR Pure preamp. Anyone have any experience with this? Anyone think there is a better option for a pre to be using the K&K pickup? (I'm sorry if you guys have heard these questions a million times - I know all about newbies that come to the forums I frequent and ask questions that, with a little research, could be answered without a new thread being generated) Appreciate the advice (in advance). Todd
Members RainsongDR1000 Posted July 23, 2004 Members Posted July 23, 2004 K&K, while I'm sure they also want to sell their preamps, is probably steering you right. It's the impedance issue again. The K&K isn't the same impedance as most under saddles. Most pre amps, like the Yamaha stomp, baggs PADI etc. are made to go with the higher impedance under saddles like the Fishman Matrix, Baggs Element, etc. While the Yamaha and PADI will work with the K&K, (I used to have a K&K which I used with the Baggs PADI), you'll have to EQ a lot of the bass off and will tend to sound boomy. I have seen one reader here that absolutely loves his K&K through a Yamaha AG stomp. YMMV:)
Members ctoddrun Posted July 23, 2004 Author Members Posted July 23, 2004 I wonder if the pros from the AG outweight the cons. Pro's: Feedback killer, multi effects, tuner, MIDI, etc. Con's: Booming bass, ??? I am not opposed to using anything as long as it sounds good, works in a live situation, and is reliable. I do like the idea of the "pro's" of the AG, instead of just a pre that will complete the circuit.
Members sdelsolray Posted July 23, 2004 Members Posted July 23, 2004 Originally posted by ctoddrun I wonder if the pros from the AG outweight the cons.Pro's: Feedback killer, multi effects, tuner, MIDI, etc.Con's: Booming bass, ???I am not opposed to using anything as long as it sounds good, works in a live situation, and is reliable.I do like the idea of the "pro's" of the AG, instead of just a pre that will complete the circuit. I wouldn't be so fast on getting the AG Stompbox. Compared to a decent dual sourced acoustic, run through a decent signal chain (e.g., Raven Labs PMB II, TC M300 effects, decent amp/speakers), it sounds like horse manure. Just an opinion.
Members vetstudent Posted July 23, 2004 Members Posted July 23, 2004 I just finished installing a Baggs I-mix in my Martin D-15. I did the install myself and it cost me $180. From what I've seen so far I would NOT put an I-beam in a guitar by itself... Don't get me wrong, It sounds awesome (best I've ever heard) for a lot of playing styles. However, if you want to start strumming (not even really hard) you might get issues with feedback or some howling with the bottom end??? It will depend on plaement and the guitar. If I'm playing fingerstyle I'll either leave it totally mixed to the ibeam or add in a little element to the mix. If I'm strumming I'll dial in mostly element with a little ibeam for the body sound. To be real honest the element sounds unbelievably natural for a UST. It is no comparison to the fishman which I've heard TOO MUCH! The element with sound-hole remote would be a great set-up especially if you want minimal modifation to the instrument. I found it to be just as easy as the ibeam to install. I've also heard good things about B-band but I can only speak for the I-mix! PM me if you have any specific Q's on the I-mix. Brent
Members tac5 Posted July 24, 2004 Members Posted July 24, 2004 I have K&K Pure Westerns in both my Taylor 914c LTDs. One is maple and the other is rosewood. I use a Yamaha AG Stomp and am delighted with the combination. There is truth to the statement that this pairing can result in a somewhat "boomy" sound. I do have to roll off quite a bit of bass to get the sound I prefer, but the result is outstanding. This unit is really great at getting a condensor mic sound, being a mic modeling unit. The variations and choices allow me to pick different textures, all of which I find professionally appropriate. Many of the features of the AG I never use. But, they're fun to play with and many of the programmed samples spark my imagination, if nothing else. I set my sound manually and find that I stick with just a few settings for most of my acoustic guitar sound. Give me a couple of thousand dollars and I'll custom build the "Holy Grail", but my set up gives me a real "bang for the buck"; it really does sound awesome. It is rich, full, clear AND the AG Stomp is totally silent, no hiss or background noise of any kind (and that's through my headphones too).
Members Jere Mealer Posted July 25, 2004 Members Posted July 25, 2004 If feedback is an issue, you might take a look at the Sunrise soundhole pickup. Many arena acts that rely on acoustic guitars use Sunrise because they sound so good and don't feedback. You'll need a good pre-amp. The Yamaha would probably be fine. The Baggs PADI is wonderful, and considerably less money. I have the Baggs PADI/Sunrise setup in my Gibson J-185 12, and a PADI/BBand A2.2 system in my Larrivee. It took a lot of trial and error (and money) to get to this point. The BBand is a wonderful acoustic amplification system, very flexible. You can tweak your set-up so as to avoid feedback without much difficulty. You should check BBand out in your search. Lot of guys on this forum are happy with their BBand systems. If I was still looking, I'm pretty sure I would go simple....Sunrise and Baggs PADI in both of my guitars. Your Taylor is a beautiful instrument. I'm pretty sure you can improve on Fishman.
Members Ed Vance Posted July 26, 2004 Members Posted July 26, 2004 Hi Jere, I'm been looking at both the Sunrise and the A2.2 as possibilities, so am interested in how you think they compare. What are their relative strengths? I like the idea of onboard volume control with the A2.2, but on the other hand like the idea of not having to install anything under the saddle (string balance/acoustic tone?) I get the sense that the A2.2 might be more authentically acoustic, and that the Sunrise while not quite as acoustic has a unique and very musical tone. I guess I'm also interested to know how the (cheaper and more available) M1 compares to the Sunrise Any feedback appreciated. Thanks, Ed
Members Jere Mealer Posted July 26, 2004 Members Posted July 26, 2004 Originally posted by Ed Vance I'm been looking at both the Sunrise and the A2.2 as possibilities,so am interested in how you think they compare. What are their relative strengths? I like the idea of onboard volume control with the A2.2, but on the other hand like the idea of not having to install anything under the saddle (string balance/acoustic tone?)I get the sense that the A2.2 might be more authentically acoustic, and that the Sunrise while not quite as acoustic has a unique and very musical tone. I guess I'm also interested to know how the (cheaper and more available) M1 compares to the Sunrise++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++The A2.2 system can give you a purer acoustic tone with some tweaking. It's great to be able to adjust the relative balance as between the AST and the UST. Just as with K&K, Ibeam, Pickup-the-World 27s, and any other soundboard transducer, the AST can get noisey (hand & arm noise, buttons on the back of the guitar, percussive effects-wanted or unwanted, feedback, etc.). If you stand up and play, and do mostly strumming, you will most likely need to back off on the AST and boost the UST. Nevertheless, it works great. Just takes some experimenting and patience.If you play solo, the difference in tone might be more important. If you play in a band, as I do, the feedback-free Sunrise is by far and away superior. It sounds great, very "woody" for a magnetic pickup (through the Baggs PADI), and whatever you might lose in tone is absolutely undetectable. As I said, if I was doing it all over, there is no question in my mind I would go Sunrise in both of my guitars.I tried the Baggs M1 in my Larrivee, and the tone was great. I personally prefer the Sunrise, but for the $60+/- price difference, you can't go wrong with the M1. My main complaint was the way the M1 looked. The ivory colored pickup across the dark soundhole on a spruce top guitar just wasn't my cup of tea.
Members Ed Vance Posted July 27, 2004 Members Posted July 27, 2004 Thanks for that Jere. Probably the best live acoustic guitar sound I've ever heard was Richard Thompson and I think he was using a Sunrise and a small microphone attached to his guitar (countryman?). It was a very beautiful larger than life sound but perhaps not a completely authentic acoustic sound. I've only heard demos of the M1, and to my ears it sounds a bit brighter and maybe clearer than the Sunrise but also a bit metallic and not as warm. Ed
Members Matt McGriff Posted July 27, 2004 Members Posted July 27, 2004 Here is a great comparison of a bunch of pickups-http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm
Members seven7 Posted July 27, 2004 Members Posted July 27, 2004 if you're going to be playing some rock type music and at louder volumes i'd say forget about the k&k pure or any similar pickup...not only are they more feedback prone, the louder the volume you get the more you can hear every little sound such as your arm brushing up against the guitar or whatever... go with a soundhole or undersaddle pickup. for soundhole pickups, look into the lr baggs m1 soundhole pickup, and fishman rare earth humbucker. and for under saddle it's hard to beat the b-band ust with a1 preamp. (just under $100 with free shipping at the right place).http://www.shorelinemusic.com
Members Brokenwing Posted July 28, 2004 Members Posted July 28, 2004 Originally posted by seven7 if you're going to be playing some rock type music and at louder volumes i'd say forget about the k&k pure or any similar pickup...not only are they more feedback prone, the louder the volume you get the more you can hear every little sound such as your arm brushing up against the guitar or whatever...go with a soundhole or undersaddle pickup.for soundhole pickups, look into the lr baggs m1 soundhole pickup, and fishman rare earth humbucker.and for under saddle it's hard to beat the b-band ust with a1 preamp. (just under $100 with free shipping at the right place).http://www.shorelinemusic.com Seven7 makes a good point. If you plan to play loud with a band the ASTs (acoustic soundboard transducers) like K&K or PUTW #54 probably aren't the way to go, though they do sound closer to a true acoustic sound than the piezo under-saddles or magnetic soundhole pups. If you're a solo or in a duo or a quieter band, the sound of K&K or PUTW is astonishingly accurate, second only to a condenser mic IMO.
Members ctoddrun Posted July 28, 2004 Author Members Posted July 28, 2004 Wow. All the advice (while appreciated) is making my head spin... Contradictions about which way to go keep me guessing. I'd almost rather have NO choice in the matter.
Members RainsongDR1000 Posted July 28, 2004 Members Posted July 28, 2004 Originally posted by ctoddrun Wow.All the advice (while appreciated) is making my head spin...Contradictions about which way to go keep me guessing.I'd almost rather have NO choice in the matter. You don't really mean that! Spend $85.00 on the LR BAggs Element (Shoreline music) I can GUARANTEE it will sound better than the Fishman matrix at a fraction of the cost and it has a volume control. I own both so I can say from experience. I haven't heard a B-band so I can't say. I WILL say that sometimes people 2nd guess way too much on which pickup.It's just the base and you will need more stuff (preamps, effects processors etc.) to really get a good sound no matter which you use.
Members vetstudent Posted July 29, 2004 Members Posted July 29, 2004 Originally posted by RainsongDR1000 You don't really mean that! Spend $85.00 on the LR BAggs Element (Shoreline music) I can GUARANTEE it will sound better than the Fishman matrix at a fraction of the cost and it has a volume control. +1;) I have to fully agree with this. I just installed the I-mix in my martin which has both the element and I-beam. I can quickly switch back and forth between the two. I can certainly tell the difference between the two (although very subtle). The i-beam has a very natural sound but it has many limitations on how it can be used. It should really be reserved for fingerstyle only IMO. Now for the element. I am absolutely blown away at how natural and not "twangy" this thing is. It is no comparison to any other under saddle pickup I've ever heard. It makes fishman products sound like toys! I'll make this easy for you... Get the element for $85 and you will like it! I have read many many reviews from lots of guys while trying to decide to get it or not and well....... I haven't found anyone that disliked it so far (myself included obviously). I hate to say this because you didn't want "too many options" but if you wanted to you could opt for the I-mix as I did and you'd get the best of both worlds. It'll cost an extra $100 or more?
Members ctoddrun Posted July 29, 2004 Author Members Posted July 29, 2004 So what are you using for a preamp with the Element system? That AG going to work, assuming I can balance the bass out? Is there a better (value, performance) option for a pre? Thanks!
Members RainsongDR1000 Posted July 29, 2004 Members Posted July 29, 2004 Originally posted by ctoddrun So what are you using for a preamp with the Element system? That AG going to work, assuming I can balance the bass out? Is there a better (value, performance) option for a pre? Thanks! I. personally, run through a Baggs PADI. I really don't adjust the EQ's very much from flat though. About a 3db cut in the mid @about 1KZ and sometimes notch a little feedback. The Element Active does have a built in strapjack preamp and sounds pretty good w/o an additional preamp. If you look you can find the PADI on e-bay for about $110.00. new. The Baggs gigpro would be a cheaper option, same electronics, just not quite as many features. But it will clip onto your belt or guitar strap.The Element/PADI combo is a fantastic pickup system for around $200.00.
Members vetstudent Posted July 29, 2004 Members Posted July 29, 2004 I'm not using one. My element is the active version and it is nice and hot coming out. With the soundhole remote I can control the volume very easily and I really don't see a need for one. Now I haven't ever tried an external pre on the element so it could help some but I don't see how it could make much difference considering how good it sounds w/out any. I go straight into a 60 watt acoustic amp and I can control my sound easily from it.If you were getting an I-beam I wouldn't even consider it w/out an external pre but the element IMO sounds fine by itself.Also, If I though I'd be playing into PA's or systems that I personally wouldn't have much control over then the pre would be nice too. The external pre will just give you a little more control over your sound but is certainly NOT necessary for the element IMOThat said, If you want the pre I'd go with a baggs pre... They get nothing but awesome reviews on here... Never used one personally though.I'd just get the element... Try it out... If you think you want a pre, go to some music stores with your guitar and try them out. You definitely won't need one to start out. I'd take it one piece at a time... you might see that you don't need/want one.
Members RainsongDR1000 Posted July 29, 2004 Members Posted July 29, 2004 Originally posted by ctoddrun So what are you using for a preamp with the Element system?That AG going to work, assuming I can balance the bass out?Is there a better (value, performance) option for a pre?Thanks! Sorry, it just clicked about the AG! I saw the Celtic band "Gaelic Storm" at our amphitheatre last night. The guitar player had a Taylor w/ the most natural amplified sound I had heard. When I talked to him after the show, he said he was using a standard Fishman through an AG stomp. He also said that having a really good soundman is half the battle. If the AG can make a Fishman sound that good, I'd bet it would make the Element sound fantastic! I still think the Baggs PADI is a great pre. But I still use it with a Zoom 504II in the effects loop cuz it still needs some effects ( a little reverb, chorus and compression). The AG will do everything that both the PADI and Zoom do, plus modeling, in one unit. If both those were to die, I'd probably seriously consider the AG stomp after hearing this guys guitar!
Members SongMan Posted July 29, 2004 Members Posted July 29, 2004 I just bought a New Baggs PADI off ebay for $107.50 plus 5 dollar shipping. Originally posted by RainsongDR1000 I. personally, run through a Baggs PADI. I really don't adjust the EQ's very much from flat though. About a 3db cut in the mid @about 1KZ and sometimes notch a little feedback. The Element Active does have a built in strapjack preamp and sounds pretty good w/o an additional preamp. If you look you can find the PADI on e-bay for about $110.00. new. The Baggs gigpro would be a cheaper option, same electronics, just not quite as many features. But it will clip onto your belt or guitar strap. The Element/PADI combo is a fantastic pickup system for around $200.00.
Members ctoddrun Posted July 29, 2004 Author Members Posted July 29, 2004 Well, I just pulled the trigger on the Yamaha AG Stomp for my pre. A guy had one for sale on the HC Classifieds. So 2/3 of the equation has been solved. Now I just have to decide on the pickup. Element? Sunrise? Other? I think I have eliminated the idea of the K&K type for the reason of being in a loud rock band and not wanting to worry about unintended noise being generated - like the buttons on the shirt people mentioned. Anyway, thats where its at today... by tomorrow I may have the pickup decided on.
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.