Members LosBoleros Posted October 9, 2004 Members Posted October 9, 2004 This one is sure to stir alot of emotions. Bottom line is that when you place a transducer between your saddle and your bridge, you will lose alot of the vibration that transfers to your sound board. Do this experiment, go to a store where they sell acoustics with and without the pick up. Compare apples for apples. The one without the pick up will sound alot, ALOT, better. So what about pickups you ask? go for a Bridge-plate pick up that glues into the inside of the guitar. I recommend the K & K pure western. I am using the Pure western and a crown gml-200 condensor mic in all my stage guitars. the ration of my blend is 70 percent pick-up and 30 percent mic. The tone is incredible. Listen to this tone ===> www.LosBoleros.net/music/carretero.mp3
Members OrvilleGibson Posted October 10, 2004 Members Posted October 10, 2004 IMHO, the best piezo-equipped guitars for plugged-in use are solid bodies like the Turner Renaissance and the Gibson Chet Atkins SST. But I'd still take a Line 6 Acoustic Variax over a piezo anyday.I would agree that putting an under-saddle pickup in a traditional acoustic will have an effect on the tone. Sticking transducers inside the body of the guitar doesn't do all that much for me either.
Members guitarcapo Posted October 11, 2004 Members Posted October 11, 2004 I agree that transducers sound better, but they feedback more than UST's. You might lose a little tone installing a pickup under the saddle, but it's not much if perceptable at all to my ear and you do open up a lot of versatility with your guitar by doing it.If you are playing in a rock band at very loud levels it's hard to beat the feedback control of a UST and modern pre-amps make them sound a lot better (less sproingy quack)I have acoustics equipped with different types that I use in different situations just like pickups in my electrics.
Members LosBoleros Posted October 11, 2004 Author Members Posted October 11, 2004 I don't know.... Maybe in rock music a quality tone is not so important but I would not sacrifice a single db of tone quality. Actually I have heard many rock songs that have that UST sound and I find it revolting. There are many ways to set up a guitar to perform without feedback although they are hardly ever cheap or easy. A good Preamp always helps. A short cord from the guitar to the preamp helps. Using XLR from the preamp to the amplifier helps. I highly recommend a Bridgeplate system like the K & K.
Members LesStrater Posted October 11, 2004 Members Posted October 11, 2004 Originally posted by LosBoleros I would not sacrifice a single db of tone quality. Then you shouldn't be using ANY type of pickup. Stick with a mic.
Members talkgtr Posted October 11, 2004 Members Posted October 11, 2004 It's like i just walked in and the whole world has gone wacky. A UST for playing an acoustic at rock levels??? Because they are less feedback prone??? Naw,..... http://www.sunrisepickups.com/
Members LosBoleros Posted October 11, 2004 Author Members Posted October 11, 2004 Originally posted by LesStrater Then you shouldn't be using ANY type of pickup. Stick with a mic. This is soOo true my friend. A good mic set up in the front of the stage is absolutely the best sound you can get, however I am toOo much of a stage hound to be strapped to a microphone. I therefore have to find the best sound with mobility.
Members LosBoleros Posted October 11, 2004 Author Members Posted October 11, 2004 thanks for the link talkgtr. I think that magnetic pickups are good for leads and melodys but the drawbacks are that the sound is not very percussive when it comes to rhythm being strummed. Also too, a magnetic pickup does not wok as good on bronze wound strings because the windings are non-magnetic. It would not work at all on nylon strings. I would use a magnetic pick-up before i used an UST pickup.
Members RainsongDR1000 Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by talkgtr It's like i just walked in and the whole world has gone wacky. A UST for playing an acoustic at rock levels??? Because they are less feedback prone???Naw,.....http://www.sunrisepickups.com/ Well... yes they are less feedback prone than the K&K AST mentioned, but no... not less feedback prone as a Sunrise. Although a UST seems to fit the bill for Dave Mattthews, Cheryl Crow, Ian Anderson and many others playing at "Rock levels".
Members talkgtr Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by RainsongDR1000 Well... yes they are less feedback prone than the K&K AST mentioned, but no... not less feedback prone as a Sunrise. Although a UST seems to fit the bill for Dave Mattthews, Cheryl Crow, Ian Anderson and many others playing at "Rock levels". I agree certainly, but the artists you mention are strummers mostly and USTs work for that style. I find my Sunrise/OM-15 setup to be very percussive for chord accents and the like and the Sunrise works fine w/ bronze wound strings, that's what I use. Jim Kaughman sells bronze wound on the Sunrise site for use with his pickups.
Members Jere Mealer Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 I have a Sunrise on my Gibson J-185 12 and I love it. Feedback is no issue. The sound is great. And I use Thomastik-Infeld Spectrum Bronze strings. Oh, also a D-TAR Solstice preamp. I tried a PUTW 54 AST on my Larrivee and took it out the next day. The extraneous noise was unbearable. Might work if you sit perfectly still and fingerpick in a T shirt with no buttons rubbing on the back of the guitar.
Members LesStrater Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by LosBoleros however I am toOo much of a stage hound to be strapped to a microphone. I therefore have to find the best sound with mobility. This portable guitar mic should solve all your problems then: http://www.music123.com/AMT-S15G-i61281.music It is pricey though. There is an artilcle that pops up here from time to time on how to built one yourself for peanuts (and a hand full of parts from Radio Shack).
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by LosBoleros This one is sure to stir alot of emotions. Bottom line is that when you place a transducer between your saddle and your bridge, you will lose alot of the vibration that transfers to your sound board. Do this experiment, go to a store where they sell acoustics with and without the pick up. Compare apples for apples. The one without the pick up will sound alot, ALOT, better. So what about pickups you ask? go for a Bridge-plate pick up that glues into the inside of the guitar. I recommend the K & K pure western. I am using the Pure western and a crown gml-200 condensor mic in all my stage guitars. the ration of my blend is 70 percent pick-up and 30 percent mic. The tone is incredible. Listen to this tone ===> www.LosBoleros.net/music/carretero.mp3 Must respectfully disagree...if a UST is installed CORRECTLY, there's not enough difference to even discuss. Soundwise, learning how to CORRECTLY amplify a UST-equipted instrument makes a HUGE difference.
Members fingerpicker Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 I'm with Terry on this one. Micing is the way to go if you want the absolute best sound, but not practical at all for any of my gigs. I'll use those in the studio. BTW K&K pickups are very nice sounding and thats what i had installed in my two previous gig guitars.
Members M-1 Fan Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 I installed an UTS pickup in my J-180. The difference in sound may be there, but not according to my ears.
Members LosBoleros Posted October 12, 2004 Author Members Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by Terry Allan Hall Must respectfully disagree...if a UST is installed CORRECTLY, there's not enough difference to even discuss.Soundwise, learning how to CORRECTLY amplify a UST-equipted instrument makes a HUGE difference. Theres is not a whole lot to the installation. The only thing to really watch for is that the saddle is seated properly on the UST. Learning how to properly amplify any acoustic is important and makes a big difference. The UST has the advantages of less feedback but the tone can not be compared to a soundboard pick up.well let me rephrase that... The only way to compare it is to actually compare it apples for apples. By Recording the same guitar both ways. Thats the only way you will know. You can't compare speakers by listening to one brand at good guys then listening to another brand at circuit city.
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by LosBoleros Theres is not a whole lot to the installation. The only thing to really watch for is that the saddle is seated properly on the UST.Again, must respectfully disagree...I've installed a lot of USTs, both in my own instruments and in other's instruments, and it's a bit more complicated than that for OPTIMAL sound. Learning how to properly amplify any acoustic is important and makes a big difference. The UST has the advantages of less feedback but the tone can not be compared to a soundboard pick up.well let me rephrase that... The only way to compare it is to actually compare it apples for apples. By Recording the same guitar both ways. Thats the only way you will know. You can't compare speakers by listening to one brand at good guys then listening to another brand at circuit city.
Members jazzalta Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 LosBoleros said: "...It would not work at all on nylon strings..." While true there is an alternative. If you use the classical strings from Thomastic Infeld (flatwound with rope core) they can be used with a magnetic pickup. I've had great success with them on my classical. The downside is that the classical guitar takes on a more steel string sound.
Members LosBoleros Posted October 12, 2004 Author Members Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by Terry Allan Hall Can you elaborate on that? what else is involved that can be overlooked?
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by LosBoleros Can you elaborate on that? what else is involved that can be overlooked? Besides the slot needing to be EXACTLY as flat as the underside of the bridge saddle, the saddle must be fairly precisely shaped so that it will seat perfectly onto the transducer....to get this right may take more than one try. Also, there's a trick involving Mexican self-drying clay that enhanses the tonal response of the P/U, as well as balancing out the volume from one string to another...Several references in the Archives. The main point I'd like to make is that the reason most amplified acoustic guitarists use USTs is that when properly set-up, they sound very good, w/o the feedback issues of ASTs and mics, and w/o the "electricness" of soundhole P/Us. And they DON'T have a detrimental effect of your acoustic's "unplugged" sound All these methods ARE viable, and ALL can amplify your guitar in a pleasing manner.
Members RainsongDR1000 Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by Jere Mealer . I tried a PUTW 54 AST on my Larrivee and took it out the next day. The extraneous noise was unbearable. Might work if you sit perfectly still and fingerpick in a T shirt with no buttons rubbing on the back of the guitar. The exact same problem I had w/ my K&K Pure western. Left it in a year, but the last straw was when it picked up my stomach growling after some good Mexican food at a live gig! Went back to my Fishman Matrix in that guitar.
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted October 12, 2004 Members Posted October 12, 2004 Originally posted by RainsongDR1000 The exact same problem I had w/ my K&K Pure western. Left it in a year, but the last straw was when it picked up my stomach growling after some good Mexican food at a live gig! Went back to my Fishman Matrix in that guitar. LOL...now, that's funny!
Members seven7 Posted October 13, 2004 Members Posted October 13, 2004 Originally posted by RainsongDR1000 The exact same problem I had w/ my K&K Pure western. Left it in a year, but the last straw was when it picked up my stomach growling after some good Mexican food at a live gig! Went back to my Fishman Matrix in that guitar. LOL, thats great. i'd completely forgotten since it's been a while since i had them in my guitars, but the extra noise is something i definitely didn't like about the k&k and putw 27. the schatten has the same thing going on...at lower volume levels it's not as bad, but crank them up and and it'll pick up the slightest touch.
Members labjr Posted October 13, 2004 Members Posted October 13, 2004 Must respectfully disagree...if a UST is installed CORRECTLY, there's not enough difference to even discuss. I think there is definitely a difference. The only time I would use a UST is if you don't really care about the sound, like you are playing with a fairly loud band. If you call Fishman they'll tell you there's no difference, because they want you to believe they have the best product. But I've talked to Luthiers like Jeff Traugott who say there is defintely a difference. You shouldn't put a UST in an expensive guitar. I probably wouldn't put a UST in any guitar. There are too many other types of pickups of all kinds to put something between the saddle and bridge. It's probably the most important part of the guitar where energy transfer occurs to the top creating the tone. After all the debate about saddle materials, I don't see how the UST wouldn't affect the tone. Anything which may impede or color the sound will make a difference. Of course if you have an inexpensive guitar which has no tone, then it probably makes less difference.
Members sdelsolray Posted October 13, 2004 Members Posted October 13, 2004 What kinda amazes me about this thread is that nearly all posters are discussing single sourcing installations and identifying various issues with a particular configuration. For those of you out there with single source installations, try dual sourcing - UST/SBT, Mag/SBT, SBT/internal (or external) mic, etc. If you put together a dual source system of your preference you will enjoy it so much more. After all, you can always revert to the single source by just turning down the second source. I don't like USTs either, but mixed with an SBT, it can sound nice (e.g., B-Band A 2.2). Internal mics can feedback, but mixed with an SBT so that the mic's bass response is cut back yields a great signal without feedback issues. With a dual source, the sum is greater than each of the parts. Try it, you might like it.
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