Micarta

[knockwood]

In poking around for an Auditorium model, I'm smitten with the tone and comfort of Martin, but there's this tiny itch somewhere in my mind over the increasingly prevalent micarta fretboards and bridges you find in my price range (which is somewhere low and "please just freakin' kill me").

 

I'm just wondering how other folks feel about micarta components - or if they feel one way or the other about it at all. That small leap from micarta to ebony, in Martin models, seems generally to equate to a bound of several hundred dollars. Is it even worth thinking about?

[Tony Burns]

You may not think so now, but i bet you will years from now when you look at your martin and say " Wish i bought the Ebony "- Just my opinion but i like all the flashy stuff like Fancy Headstock inlay , ebony fingerboards etc. some purist might say they never sound good-- but when they put all that work into the instrument they usually are damn good instruments to begin with.

[TexTosh]

Personally, I prefer Micarta fingerboards. I just like the way it feels and plays.

[JasmineTea]

The 16 series with micarta frettboards is usualy the page I end up on at the Martin site, partly because I can afford them, and also because I realy like the micarta. I have a D-16GT that I love dearly.(Although I'll probly switch to a bone saddle) I bought it because it sounded great, and later discovered it had micarta. At first I was a little upset that it was'nt ebony, but then I looked back at my old Guild.

• I think the micarta is a good idea because it will stand up to my playing (I hope) and I think the 16 series are great guitars because, other than the micarta, they are solid wood with scalloped braces.

[solitaire]

If I were you I'd check other brands out and take it with a spoon-full of sugar. I'm sure you could get an OM at a reasonable price with or without scalloped bracing, that sounds as good or even better than the Martin.

 

[You know me, I love CF Martin guitars but even so, they don't make them like they used to. I think plastic and organic materials shouldn't mix.]

 

What's your suggested price range, Knockwood?

For instance, the mahogany bodied Larrivee OM-3 is listed at $1100, it's an all solid construction, has Ebony fretboard and bridge and scalloped top braces. It even sports a hand fit dovetail neck joint (!). Haven't actually played one, but something tells me this is a seriously built instrument with features Martin couldn't even dream about at this pricelevel. Furthermore I personaly think that Maple bindings, rather than plastic ones, only add to the charm.

 

Check it out at http://www.larrivee.com/data/products/guitars/OM-03/OM-03.htm

 

For the record: I'm looking into a Larrivee OM my-self, probably an upper level one. I've checked up on Martin OMs but I think it's a shame an OM-21 would be worth more than that of a D-28...

[JasmineTea]

Solitaire, that's a beautiful guitar! is $1100 the list? [edit] Ijust got a quote from Elderly...$735..wow. I want one $1100 is list.

[solitaire]

Originally posted by JasmineTea Solitaire, that's a beautiful guitar! is $1100 the list? [edit] Ijust got a quote from Elderly...$735..wow. I want one $1100 is list.

Correction to my previous reply: Larrivee calls their listing "suggested retail price list". I'm sure Elderly or who-ever can knock a few bob off of that suggested price.

 

I think the images on Elderly gives the instrument more justice than those on www.larrivee.com. The texture of the lurid orange mahogany could hardly be described with words (note the back-of-headstock pic) - not bad for an entrylevel instrument... http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/OM03.htm

 

Doesn't look like its body is bound with maple though, even if Larrivee will have it such on their homepage. [edit] It probably has maple bindings - the actual maple used may not be as wavy or rippled as the images on the Larrivee homepage will boast.

 

Check out the colouration of the lefthanded OM-3. The mahogany is more yellowish here (bad lighting?). http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/OM03L.htm

[knockwood]

 

Originally posted by solitaire If I were you I'd check other brands out and take it with a spoon-full of sugar. I'm sure you could get an OM at a reasonable price with or without scalloped bracing, that sounds as good or even better than the Martin. [You know me, I love CF Martin guitars but even so, they don't make them like they used to. I think plastic and organic materials shouldn't mix.] What's your suggested price range, Knockwood? For instance, the mahogany bodied Larrivee OM-3 is listed at $1100, it's an all solid construction, has Ebony fretboard and bridge and scalloped top braces. It even sports a hand fit dovetail neck joint (!). Haven't actually played one, but something tells me this is a seriously built instrument with features Martin couldn't even dream about at this pricelevel. Furthermore I personaly think that Maple bindings, rather than plastic ones, only add to the charm. Check it out at http://www.larrivee.com/data/products/guitars/OM-03/OM-03.htm For the record: I'm looking into a Larrivee OM my-self, probably an upper level one. I've checked up on Martin OMs but I think it's a shame an OM-21 would be worth more than that of a D-28...

 

 

Hey Solitaire, funny you should note that particular model. Been staring at it myself for a while and had recently added the Larrivee site to my favorites... Once in a while I just click and stare at the thing and keep reading the specs. It's listed for $819 at guitaradoptions.com (they carry an awful lot of Larrivee models), and the photos on that site also do more justice to the guitar than Larrivee's own. In searching on the web, the bang for the buck angle seems to keep leading me right back to Larrivee. The ONLY drawback is that I live in Brooklyn, and it is immensely difficult to find live Larrivee samples that I can actually play... So I'd be taking a chance. Though from everything I've read, it really wouldn't be much of a gamble at all... And considering the quality of materials along with L's great reputation, the prices they ask are just plain saintly... Thanks for the suggestion.

[54merk]

Originally posted by knockwood The ONLY drawback is that I live in Brooklyn, and it is immensely difficult to find live Larrivee samples that I can actually play... So I'd be taking a chance.

 

Manny's Music

156 West 48th Street, New York, NY, 10036

(212) 819-0576

http://www.mannysmusic.com

 

Hey knockwood,

 

You mean Brooklyn, NY?

 

Can't you take the subway into Manhattan to play some Larrys at Manny's? They should have some in stock but call first to be sure.

 

[knockwood]

Originally posted by 54merk You mean Brooklyn, NY? Can't you take the subway into Manhattan to play some Larrys at Manny's? They should have some in stock but call first to be sure.

 

Yep, Brooklyn, NY. Manny's is the only place I know of in the city that regularly stocks Larrivee. Guitar Center carries them, but I was there yesterday and they had literally not one model in house. At least as of earlier this week, Manny's didn't have an OM-03 on hand. And if you visit their site and conduct a search under Larrivee, you will find exactly 0 hits... Still, Manny's is a great store and I'm grateful to them for carrying the brand at all. If it weren't for them, I'd never have had the chance to try Larrivee out at all.

[solitaire]

I hear Larrivee is among the best brands as to what consistancy and guitar-for-the-money is concerned.

 

I hope you don't think I'm draging you away from CF Martin which you know is far from a bad brand, even in the entry segment.

 

[Am I thick or what!? I've pointed out the completely wrong model for you. You should be looking into a 000, not an OM (scalelenght and neckwidth differs - well, you could indeed try both, see what tickle your fancy). Price is the same, though. Sorry for missinforming you... I'm sure I look more stupid than I may sound.]

 

Addendum: Originally the Auditorium model was the equivalent of a modern 12 fret Orchestra Model. Martin still makes 12 fret 000s with 25.5" or OM/ Dread scales. The OM and the 000 should really be considered long and shorscale Auditoriums as far as bodystyle is concerned.

 

Add2: It will seem Larrivee doesn't produce any 000s in the entry segment. They do make top end segment 000s, which are longscale 12 frets. As above it's much like talking salmon and trout here. I do believe though that even Martin utilize the longscale 14-fret neck on their entrylevel 000s. Does it seem confusing to you? Join the club...

 

Conclusion: Apart from the width of the neck (which doesn't really affect tone much) the Martin and Larrivee models you're looking into are built in a very similar fasion. Sorry for leaving your neurons in a shamble - there's just so many ins and outs with this bodystyle.

[solitaire]

Necks of Auditorium size guitars

 

Martin 12 frets any series:>>>>>>>>>>>25.4" long, 1.75" wide at nut

Martin 14 fret 000s, up to 16 series:>>>>25.4" long, 1.6875" wan

Martin 14 fret 000s, 18 style and higher:>24.9" long, 1.6875" wan

Martin OMs any series (14 frets clear):>>25.4" long, 1.75" wan

 

Larrivee OMs any series (14 frets clear):>25.5" long, 1.75" wan

[ksargent]

No doubt that Larrivees are among the best in the bang for the buck category. They are superb instruments.

 

As far as the micarta fretboards/bridges go - I wouldn't have one. I really think Martin has dumbed down the 16 series by using them. Thank God they are still using wood on the 15 series.

 

Ken

[JasmineTea]

Don't ever lone me your guitar with rosewood frettboard, I clip my nails(I'm actualy somewhat fanatical about them, I look around at junk-stores for certain clippers that arent made anymore) but after I play a guitar for a week, the grooves start to show up.

[10drum]

I have a 00-17 with the micarta finger board and bridge. The only difference, I can tell is that, adjusting the neck was alot more forgiving than an ebony or rosewood fingerboard.

 

The guitar plays and sounds great.

 

I didn't know it was composit, until after I had purchased it, and I compared it to larrivee and taylor.

 

If you are looking for something to play, buy it, if you are concerned about what people think, buy a Taylor, and if you want something nice to look at, buy a Larrivee.

[solitaire]

 

Originally posted by 10drum If you are looking for something to play, buy it, if you are concerned about what people think, buy a Taylor, and if you want something nice to look at, buy a Larrivee.

 

I honestly wouldn't think champion Pete Huttlinger (for one) would buy a Larrivee, next to his Collings, only for the looks of it. And why would a thin sounding Taylor speak to the minds of people and not a Larrivee or a Martin? - I'm sure a Goodall would, but then we're talking acoustic excellence, aren't we?

 

Read a while back you'd choose a Larrivee OM-09 over a Martin OM-21. Why should it be different in this segment?

[10drum]

Solitare,

I don't know Pete Huttlinger, but I have owned 1 Taylor 710 and 2 Larrivees a C-10 and I think an om-9(I don't think I've ever mentioned either, here).

 

The Taylor was traded to me for a Guild that I owned at the time. The Taylor was a good guitar , a bit bulky and bassy sounding. It was easy to sell. I just think Taylor is more about image than anything. Good guitars, but over-priced.

 

I bought the Larrivee c-10 and thought it to be very good for the price, but it was extremely unstable, seems as though the action was different with changes in temp. I didn't want to give up on the Larrivee so I traded it for the om-9 and my fiddle playing wife complained about it being out of tune when I played up the neck, then I noticed the bridge was placed about 1/4" too far from the 12th frett, hence poor intonation. The store where I purchased it allowed me to trade for a new 00-17, even though the 00-17 was worth about $200 dollars less than the om-9, it's twice the guitar as either Larrivee, even with a plastic finger board & bridge.

 

So Knockwood,

 

Don't be afraid of the Micarta.

[knockwood]

I bought the Larrivee c-10 and thought it to be very good for the price, but it was extremely unstable, seems as though the action was different with changes in temp. I didn't want to give up on the Larrivee so I traded it for the om-9 and my fiddle playing wife complained about it being out of tune when I played up the neck, then I noticed the bridge was placed about 1/4" too far from the 12th frett, hence poor intonation. The store where I purchased it allowed me to trade for a new 00-17, even though the 00-17 was worth about $200 dollars less than the om-9, it's twice the guitar as either Larrivee, even with a plastic finger board & bridge.

 

So Knockwood,

 

Don't be afraid of the Micarta.

 

From what I've been able to find out about Micarta, the weird thing is, it's not plastic. While it is a laminate, apparently it is generally composed of natural or otherwise marginally processed natural materials: paper, cotton/linen, glass... with an epoxy resin used for binding... itself not too far removed from the nitrocellulose lacquer used on most guitars, including those constructed strictly of wood...

 

So I guess I've lost my fear of Micarta.

 

But not my lust for Larrivee.

 

Ultimately, I think what I'm going to have to do is select one Larrivee and one Martin because I can't help but feel that if I select only one I'll always wonder how it might have been... I've been married for eight years, so I know I'm right about this.

 

Sol,

On the diff between 000 and OM, many thanks for listing out the distinctions. Very nice of you to go to the trouble. When I first hit the Martin site - man, that is a fantastically arranged site - after trying out an 000-16, I came across the OM version and, stupidly, probably clicked back and forth between the two spec pages for about half an hour trying to figure out what the hell the difference was until I finally noticed the neck width specs... Maybe I'm making less of it than I should, but since I've been playing a dreadnaught my entire guitar-playing life - all year of it - I don't suppose the difference in width would have much of an effect on my playing one way or the other. Perhaps I'll pick up the 000-16 and a Larrivee rosewood dread... The D-03R looks awfully tasty...

[JasmineTea]

Knockwood, that's one hell of a post. I especialy like the part about 2 guitars and being married for 8 years. interesting.

• Micarta is used for makeing the handles of knives, pocket knives etc. I don't mind haveing some "Uncle Henry" on my guitar.

[knockwood]

 

Originally posted by JasmineTea Fingerboard width IS something you need to be OVERLY concerned about, as the guitars your looking at could end up being with you for life.(presonaly, I don't "sell" guitars anymore, I only buy them) May as well try and get it right the first time.

 

______________________________________

 

Good point. Looking closer, that little OM sucker actually has a neck just like my dreadnaught! Have not tried out the OM model, & I had foolishly assumed since it is generally smaller, the neck would be, too... Did try the 000, and immediately fell in love with the comfort of it. Then the tone got to me and it was all I could do to keep from making out with the guitar right there in the showroom... The thing is, I'm one of those unfortunate dunderheads with an itchy wallet hand. This is all right most of the time, 'cause most of the time the wallet is empty... When it's not, though, I can be a danger to myself. One of the reasons I love this forum...

[54merk]

knockwood,

Sorry to hear Manny's does not have any Larrys in stock right now. They probably sold out at Christmas. Seems like the delears don't keep many in stock, or maybe they just sell quickly. Keep calling and they should get some in. The 03 and 05 will sound the same, and the 03R will sound like an 09, the only difference being the gloss finishes and fancy trim on the higher series. Hopefully you can at least get to play the different body styles and compare mahog with rosewood, if you can find any to play.

 

I thought GC dropped the line several years ago so I would not expect that they would have any new ones in stock, although they may occasionally have a used one which was traded in.

 

There are not too many Larry dealers around. They are fine guitars, as are Martins, but their character is quite different, so it is important to play them first. I've read descriptions such as a cross betwen a Martin and Taylor. You've got to play one to decide for yourself.

 

As for the 000 and OM difference, these desgnations are all over the place these days. A true OOO should have 12 frets, however the 00028EC has 14 frets. The nut widths are all over the place in the Martin line as well, either 1 11/16, 1 3/4 or 1 13/16. The OM is 000 body with a 14 fret neck and 1 3/4" nut. The advantage of a 12 fret neck is that the body is slightly larger, which improves the sound. The disadvantage of course is there are two less easily accessible frets.

 

As for the 1.75" nut, it makes fingerpicking a whole lot easier. If you never fingerpick, it probably won't make any difference to you but I believe Larrivee is making all of the 03, 05, 09 and 10 series with that nut width. I find it easier to play than the 1 11/16" nut on my Martin.

 

As long as you are looking at Larrivee, check out the L size. This is between a GC and Dread, and is a great all around size for both fingerpicking and strumming.

 

Good luck with your search. If you do decide on a Larrivee be sure to call Dave at Guitar Adoptions.

 

BTW, I do not own a Larrivee, although my Paragon Mini-Jumbo was built in Vancouver by Larrivee protoge Rob Bustos, so I consider it a Canadian cousin. I do own a Martin D-35. Very different guitars for different styles of playing.

 

 

 

[solitaire]

 

Originally posted by 54merk As for the 000 and OM difference, these desgnations are all over the place these days. A true OOO should have 12 frets, however the 00028EC has 14 frets. The nut widths are all over the place in the Martin line as well, either 1 11/16, 1 3/4 or 1 13/16. The OM is 000 body with a 14 fret neck and 1 3/4" nut. The advantage of a 12 fret neck is that the body is slightly larger, which improves the sound. The disadvantage of course is there are two less easily accessible frets.

You're right as always, 54merk. Yes an original 000 should have 12 frets and an OM should have 14 frets (both with the same length of scale (and width, it would seem)) by the standards of 1929 I believe. In a way, that's to say an original Dreadnought should have 12 frets clear too. Wasn't the OM a 000 adapted to suit banjo players, hence the extra frets (the first model ever made with 14 frets)?

 

I completely forgot about the 1 13/16" width (some Martins even has 1 7/8", couldn't say with the Auditorium size though... I'm sure you'd know).

 

Originally posted by 54merk however the 00028EC has 14 frets.

 

In fact most 000s, as with most steelstring models, have 14 frets today. There are ten kinds of 12-fret 000s, fiftysix 14-fret 000s and twentyfive OMs available from Martin. I do agree a size/ style designation should have one spec.

[Andrewrg]

One of my Martins,the CEO4R has a Micarta fingerboard and bridge and I also had no idea it wasnt ebony until I read the specs.I like the look,the feel and for me the fact that it isnt wood is not an issue at all.There are some folk who are feel that somehow it is"unnatural",but seeing as everything on this planet has natural origins in the stars that argument doesnt work.

Enjoy your new guitar-if it sounds,plays and looks good thats all you need concern yourself with.Have fun.

[solitaire]

 

Originally posted by Andrewrg One of my Martins,the CEO4R has a Micarta fingerboard and bridge and I also had no idea it wasnt ebony until I read the specs.I like the look,the feel and for me the fact that it isnt wood is not an issue at all.There are some folk who are feel that somehow it is"unnatural",but seeing as everything on this planet has natural origins in the stars that argument doesnt work. Enjoy your new guitar-if it sounds,plays and looks good thats all you need concern yourself with.Have fun.

 

I believe too, that you should choose instrument by sound and feel and not by materials used. If the opposite were true, no-one would have bought a Rainsong for instance. However I find it sad Martin will be more likely to cut corners even more drastically than what we've seen thus far. When will the first all plastic Martin see the light of day?

 

This arises a few thoughts in me. Why eg can Larrivee manage to build all solids with dovetails at a reasonable price, when Martin can not? Tacoma is another great example (or anyway used to be one) of all solids at a fair price, while built in the western world - factory location; not that much what quality is concerned, rather with the luthiers pay in mind.

 

Should this have been a thread about saddles and nuts few would dare oppose those of a firm belief bone and tusk is far superior to plastic and semi-plastic materials. We're a bit farther away from the actual tension points here obviously, but the materials still posseses the same features.

[JasmineTea]

I noticed that I was'nt the only one who bought a Martin with micarta, and did'nt realize it till I got it home (haha). It looks like a realy good piece of ebony.