Cedar top question

[miramadar]

I purchased an Alhambra 9C recently and I'm wondering if it still has some "opening up" to do. I contacted Alhambra and they were nice enough to tell me that my particular instrument was made in 2001. It was a new instrument.

 

Does "opening up" only occur through playing the instrument or can a guitar open up sitting in storage? Is it the conduction of sound waves through the top that does the magic, or does the top simply age to it's "opened up" point?

[seven7]

it needs to be played to open up. just sitting around won't do it.

unless you want to do what some people do and sit a guitar in front of very loud speakers for hours on end to vibrate the top, ha..

[miramadar]

It makes me happy to hear that. I bought this guitar much against my better judgement from an online retailer (www.classicalguitarshop.com). I called the retailer (which was located in Richmond, VA) and asked if I could come by and play the instrument before I purchased it (since I only lived a few hours away). He said he wasn't set up for that. I insisted, but he said no. So, I had resigned myself to not purchasing from him. The guy on the phone wasn't the salesman type. He seemed more the guitar tech type. So we struck up conversation about guitars in general. I told him what I was looking to buy...the price range...and he said he had a "scratch & dent" Alhambra he'd let go cheap. The list was over $1700 and he said he'd let me have it for $750. He said he'd give a refund if I didn't like the instrument. So, I went for it...and worried like a sick child until it arrived. I was so pleasantly surprised when I played it. It has a few superficial wounds, but it really sounds awesome. And I just can't wait for it to open up. How long does it take for a cedar top? Couple of years? I play, on average, 1-2 hours a day.

And thanks for the info.

[54merk]

Typically a guitar opens up after it has been played for some period of time. Impossible to say how long because there are too many factors (types of woods, bracing, heavily or lightly built, etc). From what's written on this and other forums cedar tops will open up much faster than spruce, which can take years, particularly on a heavily braced instrument. Since classicals are rather lightly constructed I would not think there will be a long break-in period. I am sure that it will improve with age, however it may not be quite as dramatic a change as with steel stringed instruments.

Hopefully someone much more knowledgeable than myself (a builder) will chime in?

Sounds like you got a steal of a deal!

[IanHey]

I'm not really convinced about this opening up thing yet. I'm not saying it isn't so .... just that I'm not convinced. I guess I've heard all kinds of things in my time about guitars, equipment, speakers, cables, batteries, tubes and so on ... some true some total BS. I guess I'm the kind of person who says ... if this opening up is such a big deal then show me a guitar that has just been built that hasn't opened up and then show me the same model that has opened up .... I haven't seen / heard that yet. Someone should have a recording of a new guitar and the same guitar after it has opened up, (with the same strings, player and environment).

I for one will never buy a guitar hoping that it will sound better down the road. It better sound the way I want it when I buy it. I think far more important for the way a guitar sounds is the players' technique and the strings. It sounds like you got a great deal on the Alhambra ... classicals can be all over the map as far as price vs value goes .. I've played some that cost thousands that I just didn't "get" and other that were in the hundreds that I thought were pretty nice guitars ... I guess alot depends on the builder, whos' hot .. who's not and what the big players are playing.

[rforman]

A top is going to change over the years, especially if you play it. Now whether that change is for the better, that's subject to opinion. It should not, however, be hard to fathom that a guitar's sound will change overtime. After all, we know as a fact that the wood absorbs moisture or dries out depending on the humidity in the air. In areas where the weather is seasonal this may occur in cycles, and over time it's not hard to believe that this would have some effect (positive or negative) on the sound. Further, you bang on something long enough and it's going to have an effect. I think the best guitars ultimately settle into themselves and that accounts for much of the improvement. And yeah, buy a guitar that sounds good, not a guitar that you hope will sound good. If it doesn't sound good today it is possible that it will not sound good later. If it sounds good today and it improves over time all the better.

[LesStrater]

Originally posted by IanHey I'm not really convinced about this opening up thing yet. I'm not saying it isn't so .... just that I'm not convinced. I guess I've heard all kinds of things in my time about guitars, equipment, speakers, cables, batteries, tubes and so on ... some true some total BS.

 

Great post, I'm in total agreement with you. I think this "opening up" bit is nothing but more "vintage hype".

 

Not once, have I ever heard someone say, "it sounded fantastic when it was new, but the tone when to hell when it opened up".

 

Obviously wood changes with age - but the idea that it will always sound BETTER with age is a bunch of bologna.

[mattitar]

I'm a big believer in opening up. My heavily braced dred improved slowly over 5 years, then with a change from 12-53 to 13-56, a bunch of rehearsals and gigging over 12 months it has become a different beast.

My Jumbo (moderately braced) as loud but tonally drab when I bought it. 8 months late its not just loud- drown out a roomful of singing voices loud- but also eqxuisitey balanced and rich tonally.

My ooo, sounded lovely when it arrived became boxy- a feature which still 'appears' though for ever decreasing periods of time, an is now a stunning instrument for lead and fingerpicking.

Whilst these kinds of observations are subjective, others have notices similar changes in these guitars. I have no doubt that all guitars- even the laminate jobbies open up- mostly, though not always for the better.

BTW, I also have 2 guitars where the jury is out...not much change noticeable yet- but one I've had for just 5 months, the other for less than a week (and it's all mahog)- I might have to be guided by Mr. Forma as to how mahog guitars develop...

Matt

[guitarcapo]

I have a koa Gibson J200 that seemed to "open up" overnight....About 2 or 3 years after playing it and it sounding pretty good, it suddenly one day sounded like someone took a towel out of the soundhole. I think something glued in there just gave out and it sounded better. Most of my guitars seem to aquire more bass when they open up. I had a taylor that got outright boomy and I had to start using light guage strings on it to get the same sound.

[IanHey]

I'm still not convinced ... everything seems so subjective and anecdotal. I have a really nice classical with a spruce top that I play most of the time ..... it seems to change by the day ... and I'm sure it's just reacting to the the enviromental changes around it ... humidity, tempertature, changes in surfaces around it, changes in my ears and so on. Have you never pulled a guitar out that you hadn't played in a long while and it just sounded great? It probably always sounded great you're ears had just "got used" to it the last time you put it away.

I bought some fairly high end speakers a couple of years ago, (B&W's) .... as I was leaving with the speakers the salesman said "just wait until those babies open up" ... he didn't know why I was laughing, (they probably do have a short break in period - but I doubt most people could tell the difference). They where also trying to make the case that I needed special high end cables .... that had to be left connected to the amp with the power on for them to get the best sound ... supposedly the cables needed to "polarize" and this allowed for reduced impedance on all frequencies, hence a better sound ... but if the amp was switched off, even for a second, it would take a few hours for the cables to repolarize. These folks were so called experts and I'm sure totaly believed what they where saying and somehow hearing. The cable manufacturer had web pages detailing the process .... all IMO absolute poppycock! Yet alot of people where buying into it. My point is just because people say things doesn't make it so! Show me the empirical data, the definitive test results.

[miramadar]

I have no doubt that all guitars- even the laminate jobbies open up- mostly, though not always for the better.

 

 

I think this is true. I had a cheap Sigma CS-1 classical ($200 new) that "seemed" to get better with age...about 7 years after I bought it. But, there could be other explanations other than "opening up". I tested tons of different strings on the instrument, finally settling on Hannabach. It could have been the strings more than the top.

[orsino]

Wood is more "wet" with sap when it is "younger". This "wetness" doesn't allow the top to vibrate as much as a dry top. You can hear this difference in your guitar on a dry vs. wet day. As the sap crystallizes over time, more vibration.
As far as better sound via more playing...makes sense to me. The more you flex the top, the freer it is to vibrate. I think that "opening up" is a real phenomenon, but people may mistake the improvement in their playing (especially fleshing out the best nuances of that guitar after numerous hours of playing) over time for "opening up".
My $0.02

[54merk]

Originally posted by IanHey I'm still not convinced ... everything seems so subjective and anecdotal. I bought some fairly high end speakers a couple of years ago, (B&W's) .... as I was leaving with the speakers the salesman said "just wait until those babies open up" ...

Yeah, it is anectodal. I certainly think the speaker nonsense is BS, but wood changes constantly, both because of ageing stress, as well as drying out, and of course daily humidity changes. The glues also dry out.

I doubt whether you would be able to find one builder who would say that guitars do not open up as they age, and I hardly think that they are conspiring to pull the wool over our eyes. That's enough proof for me.

[IanHey]

Originally posted by orsino Wood is more "wet" with sap when it is "younger". This "wetness" doesn't allow the top to vibrate as much as a dry top. You can hear this difference in your guitar on a dry vs. wet day. As the sap crystallizes over time, more vibration.

 

 

 

I've heard this before and it tends to make some sense. But, aren't the tops used for the higher end guitars we are talking about dried out / cured for in some cases 20 years or more? I wonder how much more they would dry out if they are cured correctly? I suspect they should be very stable as far as moisture content and sap crystalization. Again ... I suspect if there is a change the instrument is just reacting to the environment. Also, if we are talking about sap being the difference then tops made from say cedar or koa should be alot less reactive than spruce.

 

As far as the glue drying out and allowing the top to vibrate more freely ... maybe? But I think the way the guitar is built, the woods, the finish, the strings and so on would have a much more profound effect. I've had quite a few guitars in my time and I guess I just haven't experienced the phenomenon .... yet?

[Ronaldo]

It's weird that some people don't think guitars open up after time. Playing is a factor, but I don't it's that big. Wood dries out over time and it also changes from the particular stresses on it after it is glued into the shape of a guitar. It becomes louder, more resonant and there are more overtones. An old, never played guitar will sound much different than an identical new one. Weren't there two martins with consecutive serial #'s found, one was under a bed, one played a lot -- and they sounded pretty much identical? Both about 50 years old? I read some article on that, I don't remember where.

[takeout]

Speakers do break in, guys.

[54merk]

http://www.acousticguitar.com/Gear/advice/vibration.shtml

 

The above article was written in Acoustic Guitar Magazine by Rick Turner. Rick Turner is one of the most respected people in the business. He builds the most highly respected line of acoustic/electrics, Renaissance custom built guitars, and has also been involved designing pickups. His most famous client is Lindsay Buckingham for whom he has built many guiltars.

 

 

 

http://www.acousticguitar.com/issues/ag83/coverstory.shtml

 

This article discusses the opening up of nylon strung guitars in the Soundboard section of the review.

 

 

I really do not believe this is made up. I would put my '75 D-35, made during the "bad" 70's years when they used a heavy rosewood bridge plate, up against any new Martin.

[IanHey]

Thanks for posting the links. The vibration article is interesting. I'm extremely glad to see that somebody is at least attempting some serious research, (although I'm guessing the machine will be a commercial venture?). It's interesting that they lay out all this theory as to what is happening ... but all the results are completely subjective ... they even admit that the scans after the procedure were no different than the ones before. They're talking about "in the future" having mic's sensitive enough to record the changes ... that strikes me as odd.

Wouldn't a good subjective test be simply to have two as near as possible identical new guitars .... have a group of players evaluate them ... put one guitar through the process ... then have them re-evaluated by the same group without them knowing which one went though the process? Now that, if done honestly, would give some pretty definitive answers.

Again I'm not saying the phenomenon isn't so .... just that I'm skeptic. In fact I'm sure most intruments do change over time for many different reasons ... but opening up infers a better sound, louder, better clarity, increased bass and so on ...hmmm??

[riffdaddy]

My experience has been that cedar tops don't open up a whole lot. If it isn't doing what you want it to after the first year, don't expect it to get better.

IanHey, if you live anywhere close to Wichita, get in contact with me. I'll show you the difference between guitars that have and haven't opened up. There really is a difference.

[thisllub]

One of the nicest quotes I have heard of this was by Doyle Dykes. He said something like;
"A cedar tree knows it is a guitar when it is standing in the forest. A spruce guitar takes years of playing before it is convinced."

If you have a cedar top don't expect a lot of change. Spruce does change a lot for a long time.

[Blackface]

If you don't believe in opening up, then you obviously don't have much experience with acoustic gutiars.

[IanHey]

Originally posted by riffdaddy My experience has been that cedar tops don't open up a whole lot. If it isn't doing what you want it to after the first year, don't expect it to get better. IanHey, if you live anywhere close to Wichita, get in contact with me. I'll show you the difference between guitars that have and haven't opened up. There really is a difference.

 

 

Thanks for the offer .... too bad I'm miles away in So Cal. I really would like to be convinced. I have friends who have a few really old Martins and Guilds .... they all sound great especially the Martin D28 .... but I suspect they always sounded great? One of them has a brand new Huss and Dalton ... it sounds awesome and loud. I have a Collings OM which is only about a year old ... it sounds, (to me), as good as any of the old Martins I've played.

 

I've been playing for around thirty years ... I presently own six acoustics all but two of which I've had for along time ... all my instruments are mid to high end. I've played countless other instruments over the years. I've heard plenty of people talk about opening up .... yet not one has been able to produce any evidence. I think at times the sound of some of my guitars have changed ... but I put that down to other things ... my head, my ears, humidity, strings etc.. I can go to a different part of my house and my guitars sound way better / different. I've heard many things in my time .... thigh cream, the magnet brigade, potions and lotions ... most of which were / are BS. I think the mind can be convinced to believe just about anything under the right circumstances. As such I remain skeptic. My suspicion is that there is something to it but nowhere near as much is played up .... and there are so many other variables to sort out first .. strings, environment etc.. putting a different set of strings on an instrument and saying it suddenly opened up is certainly not the case.

[DunedinDoug]

I remember reading something about attaching a popsickle stick to a metronome and letting it constantly brush the strings of a guitar--tick tick/strum strum--to "open it up". I have also heard about setting a guitar in front of your stereo speakers....

I believe a cheap guitar is more apt to open up than a finely crafted professional-grade instrument.

[nylon rock]

Don't know how to post a link. (still)

But the two guitars article is linked here in Harmony Central:

A Tale Of Two Guitars
by Steven Stone

Reprinted by permission from
Vintage Guitar Magazine On-line Archives

I found it in the search when I typed in: A Tale of Two Martins

A good read.

[IanHey]

Originally posted by nylon rock Don't know how to post a link. (still) But the two guitars article is linked here in Harmony Central: A Tale Of Two Guitars by Steven Stone Reprinted by permission from Vintage Guitar Magazine On-line Archives I found it in the search when I typed in: A Tale of Two Martins A good read.

 

 

Thanks ..... worth reading no matter which side of the debate you come down on.