A strange, complicated question

[leftync]

I've got two guitars--a Seagull M6 Gloss and a 12-string Seagull SM-12. Same guitar, pretty much. I love playing, but I find I'm just not a 12-string kind of guy, so I'm thinking of selling it. (I play left-handed, so I've kept the 12 as a backup, since decent lefties are hard to find)

 

The 12 string has extremely tight grain, among the tightest I've seen, and I'm told that's a sign of a really fine spruce top. So I'm wondering if I should keep that one, leave six strings on it, and sell the M6. The 12-string is also older, so the top's been better broken in, and has a slightly wider neck (all Seagulls are pretty wide, though). The disadvantage, obviously, is that there'd be a lot of holes in the headstock and the bridge (?) where there used to be tuning pegs and pins. I love the 6-string, so there's really no downside to keeping that, unless the older, tighter top makes it a better guitar. Both are very well-built, nice sounding guitars.

If you're still with me, I'd like some opinions. How important is that tight grain? Has anyone else converted a 12-string to a 6-string? What'd you do with the holes? Any bracing issues?

[JasmineTea]

I've heard wider grain is supposed to be more desireable. I don't have a preferance, and don't know anyone personaly who does.

 

It's perfectly okey-dokey to use a 12 as a 6. The only issue would be the extra tuners rattling. You may want to take them off and put them in the case, along with the extra bridge pins.

 

A freind of mine plays nothing but converted 12 strings.

I'd say keep the M6 just to have another guitar around.

[Dave W.]

lefty,

 

When I first started getting serious about fingerstyle I was playing and old Epiphone. My wife had given me a beautiful Yamaha 12 string that I never used. It had a much more comfortable neck and fingerboard so I took off the other six strings and tried it. I have been playing that way for fifteen years. The slightly wider string spacing helps with fingerstyle (had to make a new nut). At first I wrapped some rubberbands around the tuning machines to keep them from rattleing, then just took them off. I imagine I lose a bit of volume because of the extra bracing on the top, but I really don't notice it that much. I hate to sell a guitar I like, and hate to see one sit in the closet unplayed. This was a win - win situation, give it a try.

 

Dave

[bjorn-fjord]

One cannot really make any conclusive statements about the quality of a soundboard based on the tightness of the grain alone. Some wide-grained soundboards I've worked with are stiffer than tight-grained boards. Some tight-grained boards are floppy pieces of crap. It is pointless to judge a guitar by the physical appearance of the wood because there are many factors that you can't see. For instance it is much more important that a soundboard is cut from a split billet of wood rather than band-sawed out of a full log to minimize grain run-out (trees usually twist a little as they grow. You want a soundboard that was split and cut to follow the twist.)

 

All things being equal, if a guitar was well constructed and it sounds good, then it's a good guitar.

 

As for the 12-string as a 6-string question, it's true, 12-strings are built heavier than 6-strings. So it's possible that your 12-string will not sound as good with only 6 strings because fewer strings will not produce enough energy to sufficiently drive the top.

 

I try to avoid giving advice but if I were you, I would do one of two things:

 

- Keep the 12-string because you never know when your interests will change (Leadbelly!)

 

- Sell it and use the cash to by an instrument you will play (or a case of good single-malt scotch!)

[JasmineTea]

Here's the Scotch.Balvenie Doublewood

[guit30]

I bought a Yamaha 12 string in 1970, that stayed a 12 string only for a few months, I used it as a 6 string til 1995 when I decided to get a 6 string. Worked great , no problems.

jm

[leftync]

i'd read, recently, in fact, that the tighter the grain, the better the soundboard. i think it was in a panel discussion of a bunch of luthiers in one of the guitar magazines.

i probably won't convert the 12 to a 6 string unless i need it as a backup, or i sell it. i'm not sure of the market for left-handed 12 strings, but i suppose i could get around $400 for it. i think i can gather from the comments that the 12-string won't make as good a 6-string as the one i already have.

like dave w., i hate to see a nice instrument sit around unused.

i just gave my nephew a nice takamine 330g i had, just in the hopes that he'll start playing it. and believe me, i don't have the kind of money that allows me to toss around guitars casually. i would sell it to put toward a better 6-string, maybe a taylor L-9, 5 or 7 series, since they have the same dimensions as the seagulls that I like. but i know that if I sell the 12, i'll never hold onto the money until I've got the other $1500.

 

oh well, there are worse problems than having an extra guitar. as usual, i've enjoyed all the contributions.

[Dave W.]

Lefty,

 

Funny, but just last week I gave that 32 year old Epiphone to a neighbor whose only guitar had self destructed. I had loaned it to him last fall, but he wouldn't even change the brand of strings for fear I would ask for it back. I knew he would never set it up the way he wanted as long as it was still mine, so last weekend was his birthday and I thought what the hell. I had just bought a new Martin and guess I was feeling guilty. It made him feel good, but I think I felt better. I have a mint 73 tele that I bought new, it sits in the closet most of the time, but it's not going anywhere.

 

Dave

[bjorn-fjord]

Dave, where do you live? I'm moving in next door.

[Khan Fused]

LeftyNC, I'm starting to waffle on whether or not I want continue trying to learn guitar as a lefty. I'm a natural lefty who was raised right-handed who decided at age 44 to learn guitar as a lefty. At best, the results have been mixed.

 

That said, I'd have an interest in the 12s if you decide to sell it.

[guitarcapo]

Tight grain is rarer but it's not a sure sign it will sound better. Each line is a year so tight grain is very old growth wood. I have a few old solid top Harmony Sovereigns with incredibly tight grain. Way tighter than any Martin I've ever seen. You can't count the lines.

[leftync]

Khan, I started out trying to learn right handed. I tried years ago--decades ago, actually--and just never got anywhere with it. A few years ago I tried again, and bought a couple of pretty decent guitars for myself and my son. He's also left-handed, and apparently can learn to play right-handed (I'm not really sure, since he doesn't work at it too much). I got to the point where I could play several songs credibly right-handed. but for me it never felt natural. Logically it seems like guitar was made for lefties, since the difficult fretting is done by the dominant hand. But I never was able to strum easily or rhythmically. I flipped the strings on my Takamine, and it just felt more natural. I've made a lot more progress left-handed and it just feels better playing. So I ordered the M6. I felt I had already demonstrated a commitment to the instrument and I wanted the best I could reasonably get, without going overboard. I'd probably have to go up about a grand to get anything demonstrably better. I'd recommend the M6 or any S6 to any lefty. Righties have more choices, obviously. Seagull apparently gets high grades from eveyone--but so do a lot of makers.

If I were younger and still hanging around college dorms or friends' apartments, where it might be cool to just pick up a guitar and play it, I'd really try and play right-handed. But those aren't issues for a 50ish married man, and right-handed really just doesn't feel right. I love going to music stores and playing nice guitars, but I seldom find a left-handed instrument, so I end up playing the same few chords and songs righty. Unless you just don't feel comfortable playing that way, I'd say that by all means learn guitar right-handed. You'll have a lot more choices in instruments, and you'll be able to pick up any instrument and play. Not all lefties are alike in their abilities and ambidexterity. Maybe for me the bottom line is that I enjoy playing lefty more, and while I'm by no means a great player, I'm better lefty. It's a very personal choice.

[fantasticsound]

Hey, Dave W,

 

Is this who I think it is from MP? (Don't want to reveal your last name since you purposely left it as an initial. And no, boys, if it's who I'm thinking he isn't famous, just a buddy from the MP forums. )

 

Anyway, I'd keep both instruments, regardless of whether you convert the 12 to a 6. I've kept my old 6 string, which suffered a massive neck injury and is only about 90% after the "surgery". It's great for visiting guests or, as Dave mentioned, as a loaner to friends. I work with a company that produces shows and hosts cast rehearsals, twice each annually, for 6 cruise ships. One of the choreographers, a close friend, arrives for a month at a time and I gladly hand the extra guitar to him.

 

It also makes for easy changes as I like to use several alternate tunings.

 

Heck, if you're worried about the extra tuners rattling, try taking a piece of old guitar string and run it between each open pair of tuners, putting just enough tension to stop any rattling. It will certianly look unique.

[leftync]

will the pins on the bridge stay in if they're not holding down strings? what about just taking the tuning machines off?

 

this guitar won't have much lending value, since i have yet to encounter many who play lefty. but it can be useful to keep around as a backup. eventually i'd like to buy a better guitar and keep the m6 as a backup. at that point i guess i'll sell the 12-string to help finance the martin, taylor, collings, whatever. i guess my dislike for an instrument sitting around mostly unplayed isn't consistent with keeping a backup or having lots of guitars.

[Dave W.]

lefty,

 

I kept the unused pins in place on mine and haven't had one loosen or rattle. Then again they have been in there for 15 years, so maybe they are there for the duration.

 

Dave

[daklander]

If they sound similar with only six on the 12'r, I'd keep 'em both and use one for alternate and Nashville tuning. If they sounded different, keep them both anyway for the different tone.

I have a 12 string that I keep around just for a different sound on recordings and there are some songs that just need a 12 string sound.

[fantasticsound]

Originally posted by leftync will the pins on the bridge stay in if they're not holding down strings? what about just taking the tuning machines off?...

 

I'd put a wind or two of plumber's dope (a dry, ribbon sealant that stretches to fit threads on a pipe or bolt) around each extra pin before reinserting, just to make sure they stay in without rattling. Plumber's dope is easy to remove if you ever decide to start using the guitar as a 12 string again.

 

Sure, you could take out the extra tuners. Personally I wouldn't like the look. I could deal with tuning the guitar with the other tuners in my way.

[Khan Fused]

leftync, thanks for sharing. I'm struggling either way, but at least we've put together a collection of decent RH for my wife, so switching back & forth is no big deal. My wife has a very well used early Seagull Model 12. Has a great warm sound, & there's no way she'd ever part with it. If I was you, yes, I'd definately keep the 12s.

 

Oh yes, if you're ever in Houston, Southpaw Guitars is located here. I don't go in very often, mostly because my playing sucks, but also because I get a bad case of GAS.

 

Take care.

[fantasticsound]

BTW - I'm a lefty playing righty.. but I began when I was 7 or 8 on guitars bought for my righty mother and older brother. The act of holding and manipulating a guitar was so foreign, I can't imagine it would've been more difficult to learn one way vs. the other.

 

But I'm a fingerpicker and my right hand nails are long. Every attempt I made at learning lefty, to test the idea that I might have even more success playing with my dominant hand as the pick hand, was thwarted by the desire to keep my fingernails.

 

I may not have been able to learn lefty. Although I throw, write, skateboard, play tennis and hammer with my left, I bat and swing a golf club righty. I can't bat lefty at all. (I only play miniature golf, so that's not much of a test. )

 

I can't imagine how annoying it must be to go into a guitar store or grab someone else's instrument and have no ability to play it. I'm certainly glad I was taught to play righty.

[leftync]

Like I said, I started out playing right-handed. I wasn't much good and didn't feel comfortable, but I can make a few chords andm in fact, picked out my guitar by trying out right=handed instruments. Not ideal, but unavoidable unless your shop is one of the rare ones with a decent selection for lefties. Harry's Guitar Shop in Raleigh is about the only store I've ever been in with more than one decent left-handed guitar--and that includes Music Row in NYC.

When I buy another one, I'll check out Southpaw Guitars and Mandolin Bros. on the Web., also Elderly. But I'll have to go largely on trust. Fortunately or unfortunately, I can't see myself outgrowing the M6 any time soon.

[Khan Fused]

I took a guitar course way back in high school. It was a bad joke, but I did play okay right-handed. I should dedicate a couple of weeks to just RH practice, & see what happens. At least it would give me an excuse to play my wife's decent guitars. She gets the better guitars because she actually plays guitar, among several other instuments. She's also a music teacher, but I can't take lesssons from her because it drives both of us crazy. Later..Chris

[JasmineTea]

Lefty,

Don't feel bad about having extra guitars laying around, out of aprox 15-20 instruments I have, 3-4 actualy get played regularly.

 

fantasticsound,

"plumbers dope" -it's called teflon tape. It won't hurt anything, but heck, if you're not concerned with how it looks when it's missing 1/2 the strings, why be concerned when it's missing 1/2 the pegs and pins?

[fantasticsound]

Jasmine Tea

 

Yep, teflon tape.

 

I disagree with the notion that removing six strings from a 12 string would be noticable to anyone who isn't a musician. Removing the pins and/or tuners, IMO, is very conspicuous.

 

But I have another reason for wanting these parts on my twelve string if I ever reduce it to a six string. If the parts are still on the guitar then all it takes is a set of strings to return it to a twelve.

[JasmineTea]

It's likely that one of those unused tuners will rattle. To each's own.

[leftync]

Jasmine, if I had that many unused guitars I'd find something to do with them. I had one and I gave it to my nephew--a nice, $300 value. I don't casually part with something of that value, but if he plays it, it will be worth it to me.

I guess my point is--do you have any old (or new) Martins, Taylors, Gibsons, etc. you could easily spare? Preferably with the pickguard on the far side when the neck's pointing to your right?