Moderators daddymack Posted May 8, 2020 Moderators Share Posted May 8, 2020 9 hours ago, kwakatak said: “Lawsuit” isn’t marketing, it’s myth. There were no lawsuits. yes..there was one, which set a precedent, and was followed by threats, C&D orders, etc., by Fender, Guild, Gretsch, Martin and Rickenbacker. from Wikipedia: On June 28, 1977, in the Philadelphia Federal District Court, a lawsuit was filed by the Norlin Corporation, the parent company of Gibson Guitars, against Elger/Hoshino U.S.A.'s use of the Gibson headstock design and logo. Hoshino settled out of court in early 1978 and the case was officially closed on February 2, 1978. Hoshino was 'Ibanez'... here's a Tak 'Martin 12'... I read that Martin never actually 'sued' Takamine. They were to be manufacturing Martin's 'budget' line of guitars, and Takamine was given 'prewar' Martin blueprints and so on. Takamine supposedly backed out*, and Sigma became the Martin 'budget' line. Martin issued them a C&D order to change their logo and headstock design. *although I am more inclined to think Martin was unhappy with the quality, and instruments being produced looked 'too close' to actual Martins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted May 8, 2020 Members Share Posted May 8, 2020 On 5/6/2020 at 8:35 PM, Gibson29 said: I think the ‘M’ stands for “meh”. You probably could add a “hogany” after that, but without further numbers and photos, who knows? Yeah, let's see what the Takamine archive says: EF350MC Maple back and sides EF350SMCSC Maple back and sides EF381M Maple back and sides EG450SMCSB Maple back and sides F350M Maple back and sides F360SSMT Rosewood back and sides (go figure, an outlier) F365MS Maple back and sides F390MS Maple back and sides F395MS Maple back and sides FP350SMSB Maple back and sides TF250SMC Maple back and sides TF250SMCSB Maple back and sides TF450SM Maple back and sides TF450SMCSB Maple back and sides TF450SMSB Maple back and sides That's enough examples that it seems reasonable to connect the "M" with "maple" 14 out of 15 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gibson29 Posted May 8, 2020 Members Share Posted May 8, 2020 1 hour ago, DeepEnd said: Yeah, let's see what the Takamine archive says: EF350MC Maple back and sides EF350SMCSC Maple back and sides EF381M Maple back and sides EG450SMCSB Maple back and sides F350M Maple back and sides F360SSMT Rosewood back and sides (go figure, an outlier) F365MS Maple back and sides F390MS Maple back and sides F395MS Maple back and sides FP350SMSB Maple back and sides TF250SMC Maple back and sides TF250SMCSB Maple back and sides TF450SM Maple back and sides TF450SMCSB Maple back and sides TF450SMSB Maple back and sides That's enough examples that it seems reasonable to connect the "M" with "maple" 14 out of 15 times. Or “aple “? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gibson29 Posted May 8, 2020 Members Share Posted May 8, 2020 9 hours ago, daddymack said: yes..there was one, which set a precedent, and was followed by threats, C&D orders, etc., by Fender, Guild, Gretsch, Martin and Rickenbacker. from Wikipedia: On June 28, 1977, in the Philadelphia Federal District Court, a lawsuit was filed by the Norlin Corporation, the parent company of Gibson Guitars, against Elger/Hoshino U.S.A.'s use of the Gibson headstock design and logo. Hoshino settled out of court in early 1978 and the case was officially closed on February 2, 1978. Hoshino was 'Ibanez'... here's a Tak 'Martin 12'... I read that Martin never actually 'sued' Takamine. They were to be manufacturing Martin's 'budget' line of guitars, and Takamine was given 'prewar' Martin blueprints and so on. Takamine supposedly backed out*, and Sigma became the Martin 'budget' line. Martin issued them a C&D order to change their logo and headstock design. *although I am more inclined to think Martin was unhappy with the quality, and instruments being produced looked 'too close' to actual Martins. True, but in the spirit of the marketing eBay and Craigslist sellers, there were no lawsuits because they were exact copies and Big Guitar was jealous of all that superior work, which is usually how the marketing of “lawsuit guitars” is presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted May 9, 2020 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2020 But many were not 'exact copies'...most of the Ibanez 'Gibson copies' were bolt on necks, etc. When I refer to 'lawsuit' copies, typically, at least in my experience, I'm referring to the period in time, the mid- to late 1970s, [as noted above] when Japanese manufacturers were knocking off American made guitars, making them 'look' like the icons. Agreed that some, like the Tokai 'Love Rock', and ESP 'Navigator' were outstanding instruments. But many were just lesser instruments, infringing on trademarks, and 'unfairly competing'. eBay and Craigslist sellers bandy the term like it is a badge of honor, but in most cases it is not. They also apply it erroneously to guitars from the 80s, which fall after the 'lawsuit era'...one seller I saw years ago referred to a MIJ Fender as a 'lawsuit' guitar, another called an 'Orville' [Gibson Japan] Les Paul a 'lawsuit'. Obviously these were licensed builds, not knock-offs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted May 9, 2020 Members Share Posted May 9, 2020 5 hours ago, daddymack said: But many were not 'exact copies'...most of the Ibanez 'Gibson copies' were bolt on necks, etc. When I refer to 'lawsuit' copies, typically, at least in my experience, I'm referring to the period in time, the mid- to late 1970s, [as noted above] when Japanese manufacturers were knocking off American made guitars, making them 'look' like the icons. Agreed that some, like the Tokai 'Love Rock', and ESP 'Navigator' were outstanding instruments. But many were just lesser instruments, infringing on trademarks, and 'unfairly competing'. eBay and Craigslist sellers bandy the term like it is a badge of honor, but in most cases it is not. They also apply it erroneously to guitars from the 80s, which fall after the 'lawsuit era'...one seller I saw years ago referred to a MIJ Fender as a 'lawsuit' guitar, another called an 'Orville' [Gibson Japan] Les Paul a 'lawsuit'. Obviously these were licensed builds, not knock-offs. This is true. They might follow some specs but there are clear cost-cutting measures in place. My F360 has laminated construction, off quarter sawn bracing, no patch on the X brace (which is what killed it BTW) and dowel/epoxy neck joint (not a dovetail joint.) OTOH on closer inspection the specs for prewar Martin’s were mostly followed otherwise - but according to John Hall over at the Kit Guitars Forum (who has restored several prewar Martins) the bracing on those were beefier than modern Martins. The measurements on my ‘73 F360 matches many of the specs he cited. The main transverse brace is 1/2” thick and 9/16” tall - and there’s no “popsicle stick.” Even the lower face braces are 5/16” wide and 5/8” tall. What really got me about my “lawsuit” Tak is that the plywood top is 3/32” (.093) thick. A 40 year old solid top would have cracked under the abuse that guitar has seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted May 9, 2020 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2020 20 hours ago, DeepEnd said: Yeah, let's see what the Takamine archive says: EF350MC Maple back and sides EF350SMCSC Maple back and sides EF381M Maple back and sides EG450SMCSB Maple back and sides F350M Maple back and sides F360SSMT Rosewood back and sides (go figure, an outlier) F365MS Maple back and sides F390MS Maple back and sides F395MS Maple back and sides FP350SMSB Maple back and sides TF250SMC Maple back and sides TF250SMCSB Maple back and sides TF450SM Maple back and sides TF450SMCSB Maple back and sides TF450SMSB Maple back and sides That's enough examples that it seems reasonable to connect the "M" with "maple" 14 out of 15 times. could be 'Meh-ple'...just to make Gibby29 happy...😉 [he's had a rough morning] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gibson29 Posted May 9, 2020 Members Share Posted May 9, 2020 20 hours ago, Gibson29 said: Or “aple “? 1 hour ago, daddymack said: could be 'Meh-ple'...just to make Gibby29 happy...😉 [he's had a rough morning] You could read the threads, just sayin’🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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