Members kdp86 Posted October 28, 2005 Members Posted October 28, 2005 Hey you guys, thanks for helping. I have heard some mixed feelings about laminte sides on an acoustic. I read a whole article from some custom luthier that said it doesn't matter what they're made of, that they don't vibrate anyway, and that they're just there for support. He went as far as to say that guitar makers could make them out of anything they wanted, but they stick to the back material for aesthetic reasons. But, then I read a few reviews on the Alvarez PD90, and a couple of people said that they thought the sound was dead because of the sides, and that the all solid sounded better. Here comes the bad part. I really love that super bassy, full but clear tone of a rosewood dreadnaught, and most of the nicer ones have scalloped bracing. Alvarez, (which after really looking around, I've decided I'm going to buy from) makes two guitars that spark my intrest. The PD90, which is a solid englemann top, rosewood back, lam sides, WITH scalloped bracing. And there is the MD90, all solids of the same woods, unscalloped bracing. Don't bother with the reviews that say they have scalloped bracing, they don't. I looked everywhere to find out, and they don't. I don't know (since I don't have a local dealer, and can't play before I buy) which one would in theory have the fuller sound. I've played overseas Breeloves that have lam sides, and they were still very resonant, but I can't compare a Mahogany concert from them to a Rosewood dread from another company that I've never played. SOMEONE PLEASE EASE MY MIND AND RESPOND!!! I am surprised they don't make what I'm looking for, it seems simple enough... all solids, and scalloped bracing. I guess if anyone knows another maker that does make that, (gotta be a rosewood/spruce dread for under a grand, not Larrivee... I just think their cheap stuff is too ugly) I'd like to hear it, but I really want to know if the sides do anything tonally, and how much of a difference does scalloped bracing make.
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 28, 2005 Members Posted October 28, 2005 Rosewood + dread + scalloped bracing = HD28 (oops, forgot the $1000 thing) If you absolutely insist on scalloping it can be done after the fact - when I had the neck reset on my D-18 I had it mildly scalloped. Because several things were done at the same time I can't tell you how much effect the scalloping had but the combination changed a meek little mahogany dread into a real cannon (term is over used, but true).
Members kdp86 Posted October 28, 2005 Author Members Posted October 28, 2005 But what about the sides, that's what I really need to know about. Everyone agrees that they don't vibrate, or barely at all do, but does that mean that they don't affect tone???? I know that scalloped bracing frees the top, and adds some bass response, but in my opinion, it also takes away from some of the sharpness of the highs. My biggest question is "do the sides of an acoustic guitar affect the tone?". But thankyou for your response.
Members kwakatak Posted October 28, 2005 Members Posted October 28, 2005 Well, I'm no pro but I would say that they don't affect the tone. Hopefully someone with more knowledge could speak up, but I was always under the impression that the back and sides only really reflect the sound waves anyway and that the top actually did most of the work by vibrating. I've heard that the JLD Bridge Doctor is supposed to improve tone because it serves as a conduit from the bridgeplate to the sides of the guitar, but I've never played a guitar with one installed on it.
Members JasmineTea Posted October 28, 2005 Members Posted October 28, 2005 Rosewood/Spruce Dread For Under a Grand...WITH scalloped braces. ..and, it's got a Chesterfield logo.
Members bjorn-fjord Posted October 28, 2005 Members Posted October 28, 2005 The guitar's sides do affect tone but only to a very small degree. There are two things going on when we consider the influence the sides have on a guitar's overall sound. The first consideration is the material the sides are made from and the degree to which the density and resonant qualities "color" the sound of the guitar. It is generally agreed that mahogany imparts a mellower sound, rosewood imparts a "dark" sound with complex mids, and maple imparts a bright, clear sound. So, it's a matter of opinion as to which is the best material from this perspective. The second consideration is the stiffness of the sides. There are a few things that influence the stiffness of the sides: - The type of wood - The thickness of the sides - The type of kerfing or liners - Whether or not there are any reinforcing struts - Whether or not the material is solid or laminated The stiffness affects the sound because the more rigid the sides the less they absorb the vibrations from the soundboard. Stiffer sides allow the soundboard to vibrate more freely. Less stiff sides can have a slight dampening effect. Don't rush to judgement that a guitar with stiffer sides will necessarily sound better. A guitar's sound is the result of complex interplay between all the parts. Stiffer sides could conceivably result in a guitar with an overly harsh tone. Some soundboards may benefit from a little dampening because dampening does not affect all frequencies the same way. There are some very accomplished luthiers who construct their instruments with laminated sides to increase stiffness. This is not an attempt to save time or money. It is an attempt to increase the projection of the guitar by allowing the soundboard to vibrate with minimal interference from the sides. And of course there are some equally accomplished luthiers who think laminated sides are silly. My opinion is that the most important thing you should look for in a guitar is a solid top. Whether or not the sides are laminated should not be very high on your list of concerns. That said, guitars with solid sides and backs tend to be of an overall higher quality that their laminated counterparts, a few high end custom models notwithstanding.
Members knockwood Posted October 28, 2005 Members Posted October 28, 2005 I like laminated sides and wish they were used more often. I won't get into a whole bunch about whether & how they do or don't impact tone - I can't hang with dudes like Bjorn on the technical stuff - but I like them for structural integrity. It's not that I've had a bunch of solid-sided gits fall apart on me or anything. I'm just a big wuss about my guitars - not that they're anything to drool over, but they're all I have - and I like having one more little detail I don't have to worry about even if I never really worried about it in the first place. My personal speculation about why lam sides are not more often employed is simply that "All Solid Wood!" has become a big fat selling point and "Laminated" has taken on a completely unwarranted stigma when it comes to sides... IMHO. I have a great big fat lot of respect for Robert Godin for using laminated sides as a standard feature for structural enhancement. It may be cynically pointed out that this is done to save money; however, if that is true in any measure I figure that's not a detraction in the least if Godin extends that same monetary savings to his customers, which he does. I recently bought a Martin D-1 and am thrilled to death with everything about it. Laminated sides. If I could snap my fingers right now and make the lam sides solid, I wouldn't do it. What on earth would be the point?
Members catdaddy Posted October 29, 2005 Members Posted October 29, 2005 Originally posted by knockwood I have a great big fat lot of respect for Robert Godin for using laminated sides as a standard feature for structural enhancement. It may be cynically pointed out that this is done to save money; however, if that is true in any measure I figure that's not a detraction in the least if Godin extends that same monetary savings to his customers, which he does. Dead on! My S&P (Godin) Pro Rosewood has laminated sides and I'd favorably compare its tone to any rosewood dread I've ever played. The lam sides seem to have been resilient enough to put up with all of the outdoor gigging that I used to do in 90/90 heat and humidity of south FLorida too!
Members The Armadillo of leprosy Posted October 29, 2005 Members Posted October 29, 2005 i'm a big fan of the "it doesn't matter as long as you like it" but i would say that the sides/back matter- play a low end ovation i love the way my ovation plays but it sounds like crap compared to my new Alvarez and i honestly believe it's the side and back material (or lack thereof)
Members guitarcapo Posted October 29, 2005 Members Posted October 29, 2005 Don't believe the hype. Back and side woods contribute very little to a guitar's tone. Most of it comes from the soundboard construction and other factors like scale length, soundhole size, and bracing. Think about it. If you play your guitar standing up (stomach pressed against the back damping its vibrations a lot)does it sound much different than when you sit down and play?Your arm hangs over the side and your knee is pressing against the other side...Are they really killing your tone by doing that? Ovations suck because their soundboards are poorly constructed...not because of the plastic bowl back. It's just a coincidence that they both suck AND have a plastic back. I'm sure an awesome sounding acoustic CAN be made with a plastic back... and a totally crappy sounding all-solid-wood guitar can be made. I've heard the latter enough times. As a matter of fact, sometimes a high end builder will use laminate back and sides because it allows him to put the extra money into a better soundboard, neck, tuners...and you get a better guitar for the money. ALvarez Yairi guitars and Guild guitars come to mind.
Members kdp86 Posted October 29, 2005 Author Members Posted October 29, 2005 Thankyou guys so much for your responses! But please try to keep in mind that I am concerned with the SIDES ONLY!! I know that the top produces 90% of sound, which is why I want an Alvarez with Englemann Spruce, I've heard it sounds a little mellower, and pre-aged. I also know that the back does make a difference, (it's not huge, but its undoubtedly there, mahogany and rosewood and maple all just sound different). I really want to know if the sides, which in theory don't vobrate, change the sound at all. A lot of qualified luthiers like to say no, in a round about way, because it seems like the general concensus is EXTREMELY SLIGHTLY; not nearly as much as each individual guitar of a builder of that make, model, and year can sound different. So I think I have made up my mind. I will most likely buy an Alvarez PD90. I hate to sound uneducated, but what makes me so reserved about it is the price. $550, no case though. It's unbelievable!! Solid Englemann Spruce top, (rarer and more expensive than Sitka) Solid Indian Rosewood back with Laminate sides, Scalloped bracing, Solid Mahogany neck, Rosewood fretboard, bound in Maple and Abalone, (conservatively with only a small inlay on the 12th... super classy looking, not overdone, but really not minimalistic either, so gorgeous!!). It seems like a lot more than a $550 guitar, but I guess if I don't like it I can just send it back. If anyone has played this guitar that hasn't written a review... PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK!!! And bear in mind that I love Rosewood Dreads, especially Martins, but I would prefer a little more playability.
Members Pikeusa Posted October 29, 2005 Members Posted October 29, 2005 I have a Tacoma built Washburn Cheyenne, solid mahogany back, solid spruce top, laminated mahogany sides. Great sounding guitar. There was an article in last months acoustic guitar magazine saying lam sides add to projection.
Members JasmineTea Posted October 29, 2005 Members Posted October 29, 2005 Originally posted by kdp86 And bear in mind that I love Rosewood Dreads, especially Martins, but I would prefer a little more playability. Well shux, being it's such a minimal dif in tone between lam and solid sides, don'y worry about it. If you like Martin dreads, get a Martin dread and have a good luthier set it up. Both of my Martins play like jazz guitars. $150 and worth it because the guitar not only sounds the way you want, it plays the way you want too.
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