Are you Constructive or Destructive?

[Jason Donnell]

I've been playing for 20 years and have tried many many guitars. I have been lucky enough to have a huge family that loves music. There are many guitar players in the family. I do not claim to be a great player but I do have a decent ear.

 

If your wanna know something about a certain brand don't listen to anyone that has never picked one up. I don't care what it is. If your asking about anything from a Taylor to a Blueridge to a Martin, there will always be people who are clueless put in their 2 cents. These people are just followers who flow with whatever they have heard and their comments are destructive. I myself refuse to accept advice from such people, you shouldn't either.

 

I do find alot of this going on, within the guitar forums and its starting to eat on me.

Listen guys, if ya don't own it or have never played it just stay out of it.

Here is a classic example.

Let me light this fire up just by mentioning

Zager

I know that got someone's attention. And the flames will roll on in this thread. Just watch for those desctuctive responses.

Now, I one 1 (Washburn D10SB Zager modified) and am about to buy another (ZAD-80) --unless someone offers me something great for $500-700 soon ---

I can tell you these are the greatest guitars in the world, but that should clue you in to 1 or 2 things.. I'm a liar, an idiot, or I work for them. They are not the greatest by far. What are they? I can say the one I have is definately better than good. Would I rather have a new Martin? Heck ya, but not all of us can afford that. I have a '75 Martin D-18 sitting right next to me that belongs to someone else but I'd never be able to have one. How does it compare to the Washburn. Well, in its own right the Zager/Wash sounds beautiful. I love the tone it has when using a 1.14 mm Dunlop Tortex. I'd rank it well above Taka's, low end Blueridges. Others wouldn't. Against the D-18? heh, the 18 definately takes it but at the same time the Zager is by far the easiest guitar I have ever played and I've played with alot, setup, non-setup or whatever. Oh and BTW I don't see the fret filing as ruining a guitar as some do, as just the rough edges seem to have been smoothed. Its not like your missing 1/2 your fret.

I've seen the same thing about Taka's, BlueRidges, Estabans and so on. I have a friend that owns an Esta and absolutely loves it. Who am I or anyone for that matter, to go tell that man that his guitar sucks ? If he loves it, its a great guitar (for him). It'd really be funny to see just how many forum posters would be run plum out of a bluegrass festival.

As with any jam there is an etiquette. Why not just carry it over to the forums? If ya haven't played it alot, don't comment in length. If you've never played it, don't comment at all. And never tell someone their guitar sucks, Even if it is the pink $29.99 one on ebay. How do you know it sucks? You own one or something ? (ok, even I'd have to chuckle to someone answering yes to that one) BUT, I'd never tell you it sucked as I've never played it.

As for Zager's.. I own 1, have played 2 and both were (for me) very nice. Without flaws? nope, not at all. The ZAD-50 had a tone I like a little so it was returned. The washburn has a tone I like so I kept it.

The D-18 well, its hard as hell to play. Suck? no, its a 75 model that needs some love and even could use a neck reset. But I'm in love with it and it'll be hard to return it when I'm done getting it ready for my buddy.

32' Gibson my uncle owns. To me its the cats meow, to my cousin it can't touch his D-41

 

In closing, I would ask people to reply with knowledge and not just ramble, flame, or be destructive to others. Especially to that potential world class player that just bought his first guitar ( That $29.99 pink ebay one) and is absolutely thrilled about it..

 

And to those Zager Haters (who've never played one) Come show me how well you stick to your convictions and pride. Stop me from buying another one by selling me a D-16 or 18 or Burg or Collins for $600 and help a poor boy out in the process

 

Good Day and God Bless

 

 

Jason C. Donnell

[Cldplytkmn]

i'm not sure what you what responses to since you didn't ask a question... but i'll try to respond appropriately.

 

I've never seen somebody here, say to another person "your guitar sucks" or anything like that, maybe i just missed that. What i see is people asking about a brand, and people giving their opinions, which on zager guitars, is almost completely negative.

 

i've never played one, so according to you i shouldn't comment on them. well... i've never driven a geo metro, but i know i can tell someone with certainty that it aint a caddilac. Misrepresentation seems to be the rule with denny. I think saying that a three piece back is "found in predominantly high end guitars" and "that not only adds to the look, but also to the sound"

is a misrepresentation. three piece backs have absolutely nothing to do with sound. They have to do with a maker wanting to use woods that were getting hard to find in large enough pieces. (the obvious example is Martin's D35)

 

here's what he says about rosewood:

"Rosewood guitars are more expensive to make because rosewood is considered a rare wood and is harder to find. Rosewood guitars sound very similar to mahogany guitars but a player with a good ear will notice a slightly richer, deeper tone with more presence."

 

most agree that East Indian Rosewood is doing just fine, and that mahogany is the wood that is in fact getting rare.

 

"We only use genuine Martin strings on all of our guitars. Ask any pro guitar player which company makes the best guitar strings and 9 out of 10 will say Martin."

 

this one almost makes me laugh, its just an exaggeration, and an unfounded claim.

 

the "EZ-play" thing is grossly misrepresented. people throw it out that Martin's are hard to play and its a load of bull {censored}. ANY guitar... ANY ANY ANY can be made to play 'easy' one way or another. the "EZ-play" treatment that they put on the sigmas (you know... the ones they make believe are martins) ends up costing between 200-250 bucks. The fact that they claim lowering the action improves the sound should be a give away. you lose volume by going lower to the fretboard.

 

I can go on, but i think i've said enough. Now... the bottom line is that if you play one and like it, knock yourself out man... but i will not stop telling people that for the money, you can do better.

[Jason Donnell]

Don't get me wrong, I"m not here to defend Zager. And I do like your response as it focused on what you do know. Thats great to inform people of things that are misrepresented.

My mention of Zager wasn't really what I was talking about though, just an example. It obvious your a forum master so you know what my main point is speaking of as its seen on many forums. Thx for your informed response.

[knockwood]

Originally posted by Cldplytkmn i'm not sure what you what responses to since you didn't ask a question... but i'll try to respond appropriately. I've never seen somebody here, say to another person "your guitar sucks" or anything like that, maybe i just missed that. What i see is people asking about a brand, and people giving their opinions, which on zager guitars, is almost completely negative. i've never played one, so according to you i shouldn't comment on them. well... i've never driven a geo metro, but i know i can tell someone with certainty that it aint a caddilac. Misrepresentation seems to be the rule with denny. I think saying that a three piece back is "found in predominantly high end guitars" and "that not only adds to the look, but also to the sound" is a misrepresentation. three piece backs have absolutely nothing to do with sound. They have to do with a maker wanting to use woods that were getting hard to find in large enough pieces. (the obvious example is Martin's D35) here's what he says about rosewood: "Rosewood guitars are more expensive to make because rosewood is considered a rare wood and is harder to find. Rosewood guitars sound very similar to mahogany guitars but a player with a good ear will notice a slightly richer, deeper tone with more presence." most agree that East Indian Rosewood is doing just fine, and that mahogany is the wood that is in fact getting rare. "We only use genuine Martin strings on all of our guitars. Ask any pro guitar player which company makes the best guitar strings and 9 out of 10 will say Martin." this one almost makes me laugh, its just an exaggeration, and an unfounded claim. the "EZ-play" thing is grossly misrepresented. people throw it out that Martin's are hard to play and its a load of bull {censored}. ANY guitar... ANY ANY ANY can be made to play 'easy' one way or another. the "EZ-play" treatment that they put on the sigmas (you know... the ones they make believe are martins) ends up costing between 200-250 bucks. The fact that they claim lowering the action improves the sound should be a give away. you lose volume by going lower to the fretboard. I can go on, but i think i've said enough. Now... the bottom line is that if you play one and like it, knock yourself out man... but i will not stop telling people that for the money, you can do better.

 

Hell yeah.

[JasmineTea]

Originally posted by Jason Donnell I do find alot of this going on, within the guitar forums and its starting to eat on me. Listen guys, if ya don't own it or have never played it just stay out of it.

Hang around the forum for a while and you'll get to know who's who. Hang around at the guitar store and you'll get to know what's what.

 

Originally posted by Jason Donnell Here is a classic example. Let me light this fire up just by mentioning Zager

Zager calls Sigma "Martin". That right there should let anyone know he's a scam.

 

Originally posted by Jason Donnell and am about to buy another (ZAD-80) --unless someone offers me something great for $500-700 soon ---

Martin 15 series are under $700. 16 series around $800. Don't be in such a hurry to spend your money and you can have something nicer than a Zager.

Originally posted by Jason Donnell the Zager is by far the easiest guitar I have ever played and I've played with alot, setup, non-setup or whatever. Oh and BTW I don't see the fret filing as ruining a guitar as some do, as just the rough edges seem to have been smoothed. Its not like your missing 1/2 your fret.

I realy doubt Zager has the market cornered on ease of play. It's not as though he's a miracle worker. Plenty of good luthiers around who can do a great set up too.

Originally posted by Jason Donnell In closing, I would ask people to reply with knowledge and not just ramble, flame, or be destructive to others. Especially to that potential world class player that just bought his first guitar ( That $29.99 pink ebay one) and is absolutely thrilled about it.. And to those Zager Haters (who've never played one) Come show me how well you stick to your convictions and pride. Stop me from buying another one by selling me a D-16 or 18 or Burg or Collins for $600 and help a poor boy out in the process Good Day and God Bless Jason C. Donnell

Well, I'm a bonafied Zager hater. Have never played a Zager either. But when Zager calls his guitars "Martin" on ebay he's obviously full of it. Going into detail of just HOW full of it he is would take some work on my part that should've been done on your part. I suggest you look a little closer. I've read enough of Zager's bull{censored} to know I'd be waisting my time tracking down one of his guitars so I could try it.

 

As for ettiquet. Well, we're a colorful bunch here, and I for one hope we stay that way.

[jackwr]

 

don't comment in length

 

 

Running for Moderator?

[Cldplytkmn]

 

Originally posted by Jason Donnell It obvious your a forum master so you know what my main point is speaking of as its seen on many forums. Thx for your informed response.

 

 

what exactly are you trying to say to me?

[knockwood]

 

Originally posted by Cldplytkmn what exactly are you trying to say to me?

 

 

Forum Master.

 

Awwwwwwwwwwwww Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah!

[Cldplytkmn]

yeah its THE forum master to you, bucko...

[GitRunner]

Amen Jason. I see this quite a bit as well and it's just a drag. In fact, I see some of this in many hobbies or passtimes ranging from fishing to golf to music.

 

I tend to play by my own terms and disregard those overflowing with arrogance or those trying to justify their own expensive purchases. You can find quite a few nice sounding guitars for less than half the price of a Martin. I know. I've heard them and played them. If I buy one because I like how it plays and sounds, so what? I couldn't care less what someone else thinks about it or the name on it. I don't gig. I play for my family and friends and to relieve some stress. If I'm happy with it, that's really all that matters.

 

You'll see trash posted about those Z guitars, Estaban, Washburn, Elixir, and more. It's pretty easy to tell that some doing the trashing haven't used or even heard them. Many others jump on the trash bandwagon to make themselves feel part of the group or reinforce the superiority feelings about their own tried and true equipment. Ignore them. Washburn makes some fine stuff for the $. Elixir strings may not sound the very best out of the box, but they are consistent for a very long time. That's great for those that don't change the strings every two weeks (ME!).

 

You don't have to take out a loan or stop feeding your kids to play guitar.

[Cldplytkmn]

GitRunner... you completely missed the point... and i'm not sure i want to go through the trouble of pointing it out, but here we go.

 

nobody here bashes inexpensive guitars because they're inexpensive. we've all played guitars by less well respected makers and like them. i played an epiphone a few months ago that blew me away, if i had the 500 to throw at a guitar it might have come home with me. I stated as such in a thread about them. I've played VERY good alvarez guitars that cost less than the Zagers mentioned here.

 

if you think its about elitist bull{censored}, you're completely off base and just confused. There is a very big problem with companies who misrepresent their product, such as Zager. I think Esteban falls in this category as well. Nobody would accuse Washburn or Elixir of such things.

 

and i have a huge problem with people trying to take advantage of people who might be new to guitar and not know any better.

[t60 fan]

 

Originally posted by knockwood Forum Master. Awwwwwwwwwwwww Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah!

 

 

 

Ya sick freak.

[jackwr]

Originally posted by GitRunner Amen Jason. I see this quite a bit as well and it's just a drag. In fact, I see some of this in many hobbies or passtimes ranging from fishing to golf to music. I tend to play by my own terms and disregard those overflowing with arrogance or those trying to justify their own expensive purchases. You can find quite a few nice sounding guitars for less than half the price of a Martin. I know. I've heard them and played them. If I buy one because I like how it plays and sounds, so what? I couldn't care less what someone else thinks about it or the name on it. I don't gig. I play for my family and friends and to relieve some stress. If I'm happy with it, that's really all that matters. You'll see trash posted about those Z guitars, Estaban, Washburn, Elixir, and more. It's pretty easy to tell that some doing the trashing haven't used or even heard them. Many others jump on the trash bandwagon to make themselves feel part of the group or reinforce the superiority feelings about their own tried and true equipment. Ignore them. Washburn makes some fine stuff for the $. Elixir strings may not sound the very best out of the box, but they are consistent for a very long time. That's great for those that don't change the strings every two weeks (ME!). You don't have to take out a loan or stop feeding your kids to play guitar.

Its sorta like someone signing in for the first time today and telling everyone what there doing wrong.

[Tralfaz]

My complaint with Zager is the way he's spammed up all the ebay searches by filling up his auction titles with irrelevant (and oftentimes misleading) terms. That alone strikes me as shady and puts all his products in a questionable light. Right now I see he's got guitars that he claims are outfitted with "Blueridge strings" in one auction and "Seagull strings" in another. Very shady, and complete bull{censored}.

[Cldplytkmn]

yeah, tral... his website says all his guitars come with martin strings...

[Charlies Ghost]

hey Jason.Are you Constructive or Destructive? I like to think most people here are conductive.

 

I understand your point about destructive advice but if you haven't gotten a chance to sit down for a while with a bunch of guitars in the $600 price range wouldn't you think that telling someone that the zager is a good guitar for the money a little destructive.I mean there could be a guitar in that price range whose construction is just better and the sound will just smoke the zager.But somebodys going to go out a buy a zager because you said it was good.I mean come on,your whole faimly are music lovers.You yourself have been playing for 20 years.You must know what your talking about.How does anyone here know your whole family isn't tone deaf or just enjoys crappy sounding guitars.Oh,thats right you sing the praises of martin guitars and the relatives own well thought of instruments,you definitely try to justify that you know what your talking about.Your intentions seem good but maybe instead of posting what guitars you think are good we'd all be better served by you telling us your method of sortting out the clueless followers from the clued in ones.

 

Good advice,bad advice,self serving advice,second hand knowledge and plain ole just messin with ya advice will sometimes be posted in the manner of an absolute truth.If you believe in absolute truths that might be a problem for you.This is an internet forum not the doctor phil show.If people are looking for advice they should find someone they trust and respect and think is qualified to give it if they can,if they're looking for an opinion a post on a message board is a good thing.Seriously,a opinion here could steer a person to a better guitar for the same amount of money or a little bit more.

 

I kinda think that the opinions(even from "unqualified people")here do more good than harm.But I generally try to take the glass as half full and leave the half empty glass for people that see it that way.Are you a half full or half empty kinda guy.

 

If you can sit down at an unfamiliar bluegrass circle with a pink zager or an estaban(double props if your wearing the estaban outfit) and pull it off you must be a monster player.

[JasmineTea]

...and then one day these two guys came barreling into the HCAG forum...

 

Jason Donnel, Gitrunner, you guys ar more than welcome to post your opinions here. You both stated in one way or other that you're novices. That's ok. There are plenty of novices hanging around, and their opinions are just as valid as the next guys. But there are also plenty of pros and semi-pros, collectors and fanatics too. Some of these fanatics etc are going to be a bit more knowledgeable than a novice. Some of these guys eat drink and sleep guitar. ALL of them have a personal prefference, and ALL of them have had a negative experience with a cheap guitar or two.

 

I'm not a novice. But I hav'nt gone through the trouble to play every guitar out there either. I don't think I need to go to K-Mart and try their guitars in order to post an informed opinion about them. I classify Zager/Sigma, Estaban and a few others in the same catagory as K-Mart: Junk.

 

Am I being unfair? I don't think so. The line between junk and non-junk starts getting blurry around the $400 mark. Chances are a novice is'nt going to feel that way about it. He may think his $200 guitar is the best thing going, and can't for the life of him figure why anyone would say something bad about his guitar.

 

I know exactly why someone would say something negative about a cheap guitar: To be informative; They've read the specs; Because they have an opinion based on experience with cheap and expensive guitars; Because the forum exists in order for them to post that opinion; And if it's a particularly negative opinion, I guess that means they're human.

 

Am I rambling? Sorry.. Am I making any sense? Mabey.

 

I've seen posts where a guy says his cheap guitar blows a bunch of realy nice guitars away. I have a feeling the informed guitarist is going to know better. And with good reason.

 

Eh, what the heck. I went through the trouble to type it, may as well post it. Mabey someone can word it better than I..

[Cldplytkmn]

A-freaking-men JT.

[Stophe88]

 

Originally posted by JasmineTea Eh, what the heck. I went through the trouble to type it, may as well post it. Mabey someone can word it better than I..

 

 

no i think you hit that one right on the head

[Jason Donnell]

Cldp

by "forum master" I only mean your 1450+ posts makes you someone thats been around the block. Didn't mean anything negative

 

Tral

I agree about the ebay crap. I even mailed Z'ger and told 'em it wasn't good business and that while searching for Martin's or Taylors I didn't want to see a damn Zager with Estaban strings

 

 

Sorry for pissin ya guys off, didn't mean to.

 

 

Now... Blueridge BR-160 or Guild GAD-50. I can get either for about $550-600. (that includes a nice setup and ofcourse with hardcase) I really like the 160's tone alot more, just has abit to much bling on it. The GAD-50 is abit brighter and has those beautiful wood bindings, but a tiny, clear pick gaurd. Clear would be ok but it seems paper thin and is very small. I like the way both are constructed and not so heavy, kinda like the real old dreads. Also was offered a Martin D-16GT for $850 but I don't like the Micarta fretboard and its tone wasn't all that hot because the strings pretty old (been hanging in the store awhile I guess)

[Cldplytkmn]

 

Originally posted by Jason Donnell Cldp by "forum master" I only mean your 1450+ posts makes you someone thats been around the block. Didn't mean anything negative Sorry for pissin ya guys off, didn't mean to.

 

 

roger that...

 

and i'll be the first to jump in and say that i really hope you're not put off by the strong opinions some of us toss about. No need to apologize my man... hopefully you can stick around and get to know the folks a bit.

 

I've only played a couple of blueridge's and i don't think i've played one of the new guilds... but alot of folks really seem to dig both of them. the one that i can recommend in that price is the epiphone 500 something or other... forget the exact model, but i like em.

[JasmineTea]

 

Originally posted by Jason Donnell Also was offered a Martin D-16GT for $850 but I don't like the Micarta fretboard and its tone wasn't all that hot because the strings pretty old (been hanging in the store awhile I guess)

The dealer should put a set on for you if you ask.

 

I realy like my D-16GT. I don't read reviews, but I've heard from others it gets good ones. Micarta's not a bad thing. It'll out last ebony, and looks like a piece of good quality ebony. Don't let micarta bother you, it's good stuff. Not to mention the rest of the specs of the D-16GT are darn good. That's not to say there is'nt a dud or two out there.

 

If you want an all solid wood Martin on a budget, try a D-15 They usualy sell for around $650. All those I've played sounded great.

[t60 fan]

I happen to like Martin DR's too, or at least the couple I have sampled have impressed me. Truth be told, laminated sides are no big deal.

[FingerBone Bill]

Hah - you guys just got trolled by the mighty Zager marketing department.

 

Call me destructive all you like by I know a scam when I see one!

[FingerBone Bill]

Here's how it works....

 

Zager (or one of his cronies) searches forums like this regularly. Whenever they see negative threads they post this sort of rubbish from supposedly happy customers. Invariably a n00bie - and usually in his first few post.

 

It's been done before -

 

Check out this post by KingMichael his first and only post. Sound familiar?

 

Or this Tracy522 again this posters first and only post.

 

So "Jason Donnell/Zager" whatever your name is - {censored} Off - we ain't buying it!