truss rod questions

[jjang1993]

does the term back bow means the neck would be more bend towards or away from you if you held the guitar in playing positition. and if you have a back bow on your neck, does that mean the notes on the first 4 or 5 frets will buzz? and does this mean high action if you have a back bow on the neck? if the neck is adjusted properly after a back bow will action be lowered? will heavier gauge strings help a back bow?

[Freeman Keller]

This would be bow, or, what is more commonly called, relief. A LITTLE relief is good.

 

 

Back bow would go the other way. It would be really bad.

[JasmineTea]

Originally posted by Freeman Keller This would be bow, or, what is more commonly called, relief. A LITTLE relief is good. Back bow would go the other way. It would be really bad.

May need to clarify that. The straight line represents a guitar string. The curved line represents the fretboard.

[jjang1993]

i got my sanded saddle down to the point where its at an ideal height. i just found out my truss rod doesnt have enough relief. well, i think it doesnt cause i fretted the 1st fret and where the neck meets the body (14th fret), and tehres no space between the string and fret. the string just lays on the fret. also if i play a note on a 1 to 5th frets, it buzzes slightly and any notes past the 5th fret doesnt buzz at all. does that mean the necks in a backbow?is it fixable by a truss rod adjustment done by a professional? also my strings r still a bit high(except for the 1st and 2nd ones but thats cause my saddle is one of the weird conpensated ones that have weird lower "crowns" where the 1st and 2nd strings go through, so the bridge isnt symmetrical on both sides. will the truss rod adjustment lower the strings after the saddle being sanded down to an ideal hight when the truss rod had a backbow?

[pedalpat]

 

Originally posted by jjang1993 i got my sanded saddle down to the point where its at an ideal height. i just found out my truss rod doesnt have enough relief. well, i think it doesnt cause i fretted the 1st fret and where the neck meets the body (14th fret), and tehres no space between the string and fret. the string just lays on the fret. also if i play a note on a 1 to 5th frets, it buzzes slightly and any notes past the 5th fret doesnt buzz at all. does that mean the necks in a backbow?is it fixable by a truss rod adjustment done by a professional? also my strings r still a bit high(except for the 1st and 2nd ones but thats cause my saddle is one of the weird conpensated ones that have weird lower "crowns" where the 1st and 2nd strings go through, so the bridge isnt symmetrical on both sides. will the truss rod adjustment lower the strings after the saddle being sanded down to an ideal hight when the truss rod had a backbow?

 

 

you should be able to loosen the truss rod and that will give it more relief. the action will go up as you increase more releif in the neck.

[jjang1993]

is it possible my neck will have to be reset after buying the guitar? its not an old model. if i measured my saddle while its in the guitar how high should it be? the 1st and 2nd strings r at a good height the others feel a bit to high? is that just the thing with compensated saddles or could it be that the necks twisted? how can i tell if the neck is twisted?i doubt the top of the saddle is messed up because it was left untouched since the day i got it

 

note: a have a saddle like the one on this page

https://estore.graphtech.com/mmGTI/Images/PQ-9201-00.gif

this saddle looks a lot similar to mine https://estore.graphtech.com/mmGTI/Images/PQ-9200-C0-F.jpg

[jjang1993]

can a guitar tech sand down part of the saddle thats higher than the other parts? i can visually see that the saddle is lower on the treble side with the 1st and 2nd strings

[Freeman Keller]

So, have you actually measured things? What is the relief? What is the string height at the 12th fret? How much saddle do you have sticking out? Before you change anything measure everything (sounds like it is too late).

 

Did you happen to read the "Is My Guitar Sick" sticky or anything on Frets.com or Kimsey's article on relief vs. action vs. buzzing or any of the other great references before you started sanding and cranking?

 

btw - the saddle should be lower on the treble side (usually about a 64th). It should also follow the fingerboard radius. And the "Sick" sticky will tell you if it needs a neck reset.

[jjang1993]

the low E string is 5/32 above the 12th fret. there is 5/32 saddle sticking out on the bass side. on the high E string the height is 3.5/32 and the saddle on the high E is 3.5/32 im thinking this isnt right because i hear you're supposed to take double the amount you want lowered. like if you want the strings 1/64 inch lower you would sand 2/64 inches from the saddle.

[Freeman Keller]

You are right - those numbers are very high. Most players like somewhere around 3/32 on the low E and 5/64 on the high - measured from the top of the 12th fret. Most of the time we consider less that 1/8 inch of saddle sticking out as getting too low. Your rule of thumb is correct - if you want to lower the action 1/64 you sand 2/64 off the bottom of the saddle. So taking 2/32 off your action means your saddle will be down to almost nothing.

 

So, I assume you have read the sticky. Where does your straight edge hit your bridge? If it is significantly below the top of the bridge, stop here - you need a neck reset.

 

If the neck angle is correct, what is the relief? One, two or three cards? And just for drill, confirm that the nut is ok (they are rarely a problem).

 

How old is the guitar? Does it have any structural issues (bellied top, loose bridge, gap at the heel block)? What exactly have you done to it and why? Your questions in this thread and your others have been a bit contradictory.

[jjang1993]

when i fret the 1st and 14th fret i see no space between the low E string and the fret but when i have someone fret the 6th fret while im holding down the 1st and 14th ones (i dont have a capo right now) i can hear a little noise which might be hte string hitting the fret. though notes from the 1st to 5th frets buzz so im thinking there isnt enough relief on the neck. right now i cant find a yardstick anywhere in my house so ill check the neck angle later today.

[Freeman Keller]

OK, now we are getting somewhere. Lets get the neck angle thing out of the way first - find something 24 inches long that is flat - I suggest the yard stick but a carpenter's square or something like that works fine. If you use a yard stick cut it off at 24 inches. If you can take a picture of the end up against the bridge that would be helpful.

 

The neck relief sounds low, but if you can tap the string and hear it ping on the fret then you have some relief. It is best on a 14 fret guitar to hold the strings at 1 and 12 (instead of 14) because of that neck joint thing shown in my little diagram. Some guitars have a pronounced bump at the 14th that your truss rod doesn't affect.

 

You are right that buzzing on the first few frets usually means not enough relief, while the high frets means too much. If you don't have enough relief back off the truss rod 1/8 turn at a time. Adding relief may change the action, but that is not the function of the truss rod. Get the relief pretty good before you start sanding the saddle.

[jjang1993]

so leave the truss rod untouched for now?

i still hear the ping noise at the 6th fret when the 1st and 12th are pushed down. is a neck reset expensive? i bought this guitar a couple weeks ago and its a recent alvarez model, an RF20SC with the strap button and onboard tuner older models didnt have. is it common for a guitar to need a neck reset right out of the factory?

 

and thanks a lot for helping me freeman lol

[jjang1993]

alright i found a straight stick in my garage that was 23 inches long and it wasnt long enough. it touched the bridge when the other end of the stick was at the 2. i THINK it was like a 1/64 of an inch above the bridge cause it made a sound when i pushed on it. two questions

is 1/64 inch on the neck angle going to make a lot of a difference?

if the straightedge doesnt cover the the nut to the bridge will that make the measurements inaccurate?

[Freeman Keller]

Originally posted by jjang1993 alright i found a straight stick in my garage that was 23 inches long and it wasnt long enough. it touched the bridge when the other end of the stick was at the 2. i THINK it was like a 1/64 of an inch above the bridge cause it made a sound when i pushed on it. two questions is 1/64 inch on the neck angle going to make a lot of a difference? if the straightedge doesnt cover the the nut to the bridge will that make the measurements inaccurate?

 

If the straight edge is ABOVE the bridge, that is good. You do not need a neck reset (rarely needed on a new guitar unless is was built wrong). This is what you want

 

 

This is what you don't want

 

 

OK, now that you have a straight edge, get the relief right. It sounds like you have very little if the string is just touching the 6th fret - back off the truss rod 1/8 turn at a time, tune it back up and check it. You want to be able to slide ONE business card under the strings at the 6th fret when fretted at 1 and 12. On most truss rods that is turning the nut anti-clockwise (lefty loosy).

 

When you have one business card (I prefer feeler gauges and go for 0.006 to 0.010) stop with the truss rod. Just for the heck of it capo at two and check the nut - the strings should just clear the first fret (get down and squint - unless you have feeler gauges don't try to measure it). Now, measure the string height at the 12th fret. Either stack feeler gauges or get a machinists rule graduated in 64th. Now, and only now, do you start trying to bring the saddle height down. I happen to like about 6/64 on the low E and 5/64 on the high E - if you are an agressive strummer or bluegrass flatpicker you might want a 64th higher. Loosen the strings, pop the saddle out, sand the bottom a little, put it back in tune up, check height, play a little, do it again.

 

Frankly, without good measuring tools (and from the sounds of things maybe the skills to do this on your own) I think you should take it to a good technician and have her do it for you. If you bought it at a shop that should be included in the purchase price - if you bought it on line or used be prepared to pay $35 or more for a good tech to do it right. The more you screw around and get it messed up the more it will cost to fix it. Get the tech to show you what she does - it isn't rocket science and you can learn a new skill.

[jjang1993]

i dont think i can sand the saddle down anymore cause its really short. now about the truss rod. if im putting more relief on the neck wont that will make the strings higher? ill have my teacher or a guitar tech adjust the truss rod because i dont want to risk damaging anything.

[dadgad7]

you should probably not start filing the saddle, or nut for that matter until you have the correct relief in the fretboard, that's the place to start I believe.

 

Because a truss rod is not there to adjust action, although that is a consequence of adjustments.

 

get the fretboard to lie where you need it, then start fiddle with things like saddle height and whatnot, a new saddle is cheap, even bone ones, I got one from Bob Colosi, split saddle for my Talamine and it cost maybe $15, it's made of fossilized ivory, very nice, and he's a helluva guy too!

[Freeman Keller]

 

Originally posted by jjang1993 i dont think i can sand the saddle down anymore cause its really short. now about the truss rod. if im putting more relief on the neck wont that will make the strings higher? ill have my teacher or a guitar tech adjust the truss rod because i dont want to risk damaging anything.

 

 

please take it to someone who knows what they are doing.

[pedalpat]

 

Originally posted by jjang1993 i dont think i can sand the saddle down anymore cause its really short. now about the truss rod. if im putting more relief on the neck wont that will make the strings higher? ill have my teacher or a guitar tech adjust the truss rod because i dont want to risk damaging anything.

 

 

 

if the saddle is getting low inside the bridge and the strings are still high, you might need a neck reset. the neck angle is not enough and your having to compensate by lowering the saddle. problem is the saddle won't go low enough. like freeman said, take it to a tech.

 

have them check the neck angle.