"Diminished"? Quite the contrary.....

[d03nut]

Disclaimer: my findings are purely by TEE ("trial & error & ear)

 

What's up with these diminished chords? I've been inserting a few in my own songs and I really like what I'm hearing. What I find interesting -for lack of a better word- is that unlike other chords when played up the neck, these dim-chords seem to always retain their "shape".

 

Ok, what I mean by that is that, for example an F, E, or Amajor's shape changes as we move up the neck but beyond, say, the 5th fret no matter what the root note, the dim-chords seem to always require the same finger placements. Which facilitates playing them quite a bit.

 

I'm sure that didn't make a whole lot of sense. But I thought maybe some of the more "theoretically articulate" members can say a few words about these chords. Like, how to do you get a adim-Am7, or is there even such a chord?

 

And exactly what is "diminished" about them?

 

Yeah, I could search the internet or whatever but that wouldn't increase my post count now, would it? Besides it's more fun here.

 

Thank you and good day...........

[Queequeg]

(I looked it up)

Generally speaking, a diminished chord is a chord which has a diminished fifth in it. More specifically, it is a three-note chord (a diminished triad) consisting of a minor third and diminished fifth above the root - if built on C, a diminished chord would have a C, an E flat and a G flat. The interval between the upper two notes is also a minor third - thus, the chord consists of two minor thirds stacked on top of one another. It resembles a minor triad with a lowered (or diminished) fifth.

[JasmineTea]

Beethoven said musicians use diminished chords because they're too stupid come up with anything els, like it's a cop-out, a filler. That's not verbatim, btw.

I like Beethoven's advice though, and I try to find a more meaningful chord before "just tossing another dim in there".

Queg, my take on dims is they're made up of four notes. Edim would be E, G, Bb, C#. So it's a 1st, minor 3rd, flat 5th, and 6th. However, there are two 6ths in a key and I don't recall how they're designated...unless the lower 6th is realy an augmented 5th? I don't know. I'm terrible with the terminology.

But here's another way to look at dims: Play an 7th chord and lower the 3rd, 5th and 7th each 1/2 step. My question is: Is this called a "Diminished 7th" chord, or what?

[Queequeg]

yes, I think that it is a dim 7th, JT.
(again, I'm drawing on wiki for this info, which actually exceeds my own lumbering, and as pointed out for me earlier today, dimwitted understanding...)

The diminished seventh chord comprises frequencies that are equally spaced when considered on a logarithmic axis, and thus divides the octave into four logarithmically equal portions.

In a twelve tone equal tempered tuning, a diminished chord has 3 semitones between the third and fifth, 3 between the root and third, and 6 between the root and fifth. It is represented by the integer notation 0,3,6.
wait. upon further reading, adding yet another minor third and double flatting it, delivers for us the diminished 7th. (I think)

[riovine]

Might want to try posting this over on LL, they always like to talk about stuff like this.

You are correct, diminished chord shapes can be moved up & down the neck in minor 3rd intervals that will yield the same exact notes, just in a different order (same chord, different voicing).

The diminished is a very tense sounding chord and can be used very effectivley to add tension. It has a strong desire to want to revsolve, these chords can also be thought of a dom 7 b9
chords, hence you can you can resolve the V chord (7b9) to the I. You also sometimes hear dim of the i chord move to the Maj of the I chord.

[riovine]

Oh, yeah, one more thing, they can also be used quite effectivley as "connecting" chords.

Consider the progression:

| F Maj7 | % | G min7 | C7 |

Now consider:

| F Maj7 G min7 | A min7 Ab dim7 | G min7 | C7 |

The Ab dim7 is creating nice passing motion to connect the movement from the A Min7 to the G Min7

Hope that helps...

[Queequeg]

thank you, riovine. I'll play around with this a bit when I get home.

[catdaddy]

I use 'em. I like 'em. Beethoven and his evil keyboard minded minions be damned!

[d03nut]

Riovine's 1st post kind of answered my question. He then joined Queequeg & JT in their "way above my head" analysis with his follow-up.

By the way, I don't care for dogs commenting on music stuff........

[catdaddy]

Originally posted by d03nut By the way, I don't care for dogs commenting on music stuff........

Oh yeah!

[JasmineTea]

Howlin' Wolf?

[Fade2Grey]

Originally posted by JasmineTea Beethoven said musicians use diminished chords because they're too stupid come up with anything els, like it's a cop-out, a filler. That's not verbatim, btw. I like Beethoven's advice though, and I try to find a more meaningful chord before "just tossing another dim in there". Queg, my take on dims is they're made up of four notes. Edim would be E, G, Bb, C#. So it's a 1st, minor 3rd, flat 5th, and 6th. However, there are two 6ths in a key and I don't recall how they're designated...unless the lower 6th is realy an augmented 5th? I don't know. I'm terrible with the terminology. But here's another way to look at dims: Play an 7th chord and lower the 3rd, 5th and 7th each 1/2 step. My question is: Is this called a "Diminished 7th" chord, or what?

 

 

A quick one from me. There is one type of diminished chord but 2 types of diminished 7th chords. One's a full diminshed the other is a half diminished (also known as minor 7 flat 5).

 

Full diminished is chord tones: Tonic (1st), monor 3rd, diminished 5th (hence the name "diminished in the first place) and a double flat 7th.

 

Hald diminished is: Tonic, minor 3rd, diminished 5th and minor 7th.

 

Gotta run... hope to check back here later and put more info down...

[Queequeg]

Originally posted by d03nut Riovine's 1st post kind of answered my question. He then joined Queequeg & JT in their "way above my head" analysis with his follow-up.

 

sorry for my earlier esoteric response.

try this...

The following shows how even though there are 12 different Diminished chords, there really are only 3.

 

C diminished = Eb diminished = F# diminished = A diminished

 

C# diminished = E diminished = G diminished = Bb diminished

 

D diminished = F diminished = Ab diminished = B diminished

[d03nut]

Thank Quee (sorry I speak with an accent, haha)....

It kind of makes more sense now. That there are really only 3 dim-chords. I had felt (heard) that through experimenting. But it helps to have the "equivalent" chords right here before my eyes the way you have presented it....

Now I have to figure out that whole "half-diminished" variation.....

[JasmineTea]

Here comes one of JT's secret chords. I don't know what it's called, but it's some type of diminished chord. I use it in various forms, commonly as a turn-a-round:

Here's an example of usage as a turn-a-round in the key of G:

X2003X

X12022 (this is the secret chord)

Am

D7

G

[riovine]

I would consider that chord a Bb (full) diminished 7. You hear that kind of turn around a lot in the jazz world.

Basically:

| Bm7 Bbdim7 | Am7 D7 | G |

It's part of that connecting chord movement I mentioned in a previous post.

Cheers...

[JasmineTea]

Originally posted by riovine I would consider that chord a Bb (full) diminished 7. You hear that kind of turn around a lot in the jazz world. Basically: | Bm7 Bbdim7 | Am7 D7 | G | It's part of that connecting chord movement I mentioned in a previous post. Cheers...

X12022 is not a typical diminished chord. It's voiced with an F# on the top.

[d03nut]

Ok, now there's even more of them?

full-dim, "half-dim", "typical", "secret", "esoteric", virtual, "connecting"......

Plus we got BEET-HO making comments from the beyond.....

[JasmineTea]

Don't evan {censored} with me...

[d03nut]

I've got a bad cold and my nose is stuff so I'm going to say this only once:

go Bach yourself............

[riovine]

X12022 is not a typical diminished chord. It's voiced with an F# on the top.

 

 

Yes, you are correct on that, I still would consider it a standard diminished however because that is what the overall harmony & root movement is telling me. I would consider the F# a melody note.

 

There are a number of standard jazz tunes (My Romance and Body & Soul come to mind) that use that same device. That is, a typical diminished chord with a #5 up high in the melody.

 

I don't know if there is a particular name for that or not.

[riovine]

So now you've really got me curious, I wonder if there is a name for a standardly voiced diminished chord with a #5 up in the melody. I might post over on the LL, there's some guys who are really deep into that stuff over there.