Saddle clarifications

[WaveRay]

Ok, I'm fairly new to this forum so I'm not sure if this has been talked about before. If so, My apologies for re-hashing {censored}.

 

When and why do manufacturers use compensated saddles or straight saddles. Is there someplace else intonation is compensated for when a straight saddle is used or is the guitar/neck/bridge just of a higher quality?

 

I would like to know.

[Queequeg]

you can "search" on this phrase and read a whole lot about it, but in a nutshell, intonation is always a problem with guitars.

When a plain (not wound) B (2nd) string became the standard several years ago, the intonation "issues" (as we like to say in Ann Arbor) became decidedly more acute. Thus, the compensated saddle followed; to well, um, "compensate" for it.

Errors in my quick and non-scientific explanation will follow by those better versed in this subject, and I bow to their expertise in advance.

[Freeman Keller]

Here is a pretty good article from the Taylor site (Taylor, by the way, "compensates" their B and low E strings from the factory).

 

http://www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdfs/tame_beast.pdf

 

The reason for compensating a saddle is that as you play up the neck the string is stretched more and becomes sharper in pitch. The smaller the diameter the string, the sharper it plays. Since the core wire of the third string is smaller than the unwould 2nd it tends to play sharper.

 

The first thing that almost all manufacturers do is to slant the entire saddle so the first string is longer than the second, which is longer than the third... This is a form of compensation - and most acoustics have it. Note also that the saddle is a hair farther than twice the distance to the 12th fret - this also compensates for string stretch.

 

Because of the core wire diameter of the third string, some builders put a little notch in the 2nd string making it longer - thus individually compensating it. Sometimes you will also see the saddle cut differently for the low E string.

 

How do you know if you need it? The easiest way to check is to play a note fretted at the 12th, then play the harmonic at 12. If they are the same (and in tune with the open string) they your saddle is correctly positioned. The harmonic should be pretty true to the open string (since the string is not stretched), the fretted note might be a little sharp. If so, the saddle needs to be farther from the fret - thus the little notch on the B string. I have used my little chromatic tuner and figure that if I'm less than 5 cents or so difference that is close enough.

 

If you don't play up the neck you will probably never notice it. If you noodle around at 12 and above (like an electric player) you probably will. Bridges on electric guitars allow each string to be individually adjusted - on our acoustics we settle for a compromise. On a classical there is usually no compensation (the saddles are frequently perpendicular to the strings), and on a resonator they are also usually not, but you compensate with the slide. FWIW - the term "intonation" is usually used to refer to a guitar playing in tune up the neck. There have also been guitars made with curved frets, split saddles and all sorts of other things to try to correct this. One of the nastiest guitars to try to compensate is a 12 string - the saddle on mine looks like a rip saw blade, but it plays in tune all the way up the neck.

 

Why does a manufacturer chose to do it or not? That I can't answer - I'm sure cost, the intended user (a bluegrass strummer probably wouldn't notice, a fingerstyle jazz player would), and other factors come into play.

 

If you want more, let me know. Somewhere at home I have an article with all the math about "equal temperment" tuning and all that stuff - I'm shooting from memory right now.

 

btw - a little known fact is that for years during the 70's and 80's Martin put their bridges on the wrong location. They have absolutely crappy intonation and there are luthiers that can fix this for you. But many old 'grassers have never noticed the difference and wouldn't have a clue.

[exhaust_49]

My acoustic (S+P) came with a saddle that is compensated for every string! I noticed that at the tip of the point of each compensation section the material had been crushed and slowly was chipping away and causing a divit that was getting deeper. I ordered a straight saddle from stewmac, cut it to size, and the problems solved. No more chipping or divits. Innotation is always a compermise but my innotation is dead on, there was no change compared to the original saddle.

[WaveRay]

Originally posted by Freeman Keller Here is a pretty good article from the Taylor site (Taylor, by the way, "compensates" their B and low E strings from the factory). http://www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdfs/tame_beast.pdf The reason for compensating a saddle is that as you play up the neck the string is stretched more and becomes sharper in pitch. The smaller the diameter the string, the sharper it plays. Since the core wire of the third string is smaller than the unwould 2nd it tends to play sharper. The first thing that almost all manufacturers do is to slant the entire saddle so the first string is longer than the second, which is longer than the third... This is a form of compensation - and most acoustics have it. Note also that the saddle is a hair farther than twice the distance to the 12th fret - this also compensates for string stretch. I have always been aware of intonation and checking it at the twelth fret but didn't understand the whole theory of why things were happening. These questions have been answered to my satisfaction for now. Thank you all for your time asnd knowledge. Because of the core wire diameter of the third string, some builders put a little notch in the 2nd string making it longer - thus individually compensating it. Sometimes you will also see the saddle cut differently for the low E string. How do you know if you need it? The easiest way to check is to play a note fretted at the 12th, then play the harmonic at 12. If they are the same (and in tune with the open string) they your saddle is correctly positioned. The harmonic should be pretty true to the open string (since the string is not stretched), the fretted note might be a little sharp. If so, the saddle needs to be farther from the fret - thus the little notch on the B string. I have used my little chromatic tuner and figure that if I'm less than 5 cents or so difference that is close enough. If you don't play up the neck you will probably never notice it. If you noodle around at 12 and above (like an electric player) you probably will. Bridges on electric guitars allow each string to be individually adjusted - on our acoustics we settle for a compromise. On a classical there is usually no compensation (the saddles are frequently perpendicular to the strings), and on a resonator they are also usually not, but you compensate with the slide. FWIW - the term "intonation" is usually used to refer to a guitar playing in tune up the neck. There have also been guitars made with curved frets, split saddles and all sorts of other things to try to correct this. One of the nastiest guitars to try to compensate is a 12 string - the saddle on mine looks like a rip saw blade, but it plays in tune all the way up the neck. Why does a manufacturer chose to do it or not? That I can't answer - I'm sure cost, the intended user (a bluegrass strummer probably wouldn't notice, a fingerstyle jazz player would), and other factors come into play. If you want more, let me know. Somewhere at home I have an article with all the math about "equal temperment" tuning and all that stuff - I'm shooting from memory right now. btw - a little known fact is that for years during the 70's and 80's Martin put their bridges on the wrong location. They have absolutely crappy intonation and there are luthiers that can fix this for you. But many old 'grassers have never noticed the difference and wouldn't have a clue.