Reality Check

[Queequeg]

I got to thinking about this when the subject of Esteban came up again yesterday. A couple of people said he's a good player. Well, you're hearing him on his Esteban guitar, right? An instrument that doesn't always get the highest marks in this forum. (I've never played one, and in fact havent heard him play one)

How much of our time is spent obsessing over product, luthiery, onboard (baked-in) tone vs musician skills?

How much of what we hear in terms of tone is a function or skill level of the player as opposed to the luthier and/or the bracing or rosewood or the mahogany or the HPL (or strings)?

Are we as critical in our analysis of our own playing as we are of the instrument we play?

When I hear great tone in concert or on a recording, I generally attribute it to the musician's hands, head and heart first, and only to a lesser extent to the particular guitar he's holding.

When I'm playing and I don't like what i hear, I usually blame myself first, and only afterwards do I look for hardware problems.

How much real woodshedding are you doing each day/week?

[STEELSTRINGS]

Good point Queequeg!!

[JasmineTea]

To some, you may be stating the obvious.

I got interested in guitar for purely musical reasons. I did'nt realy become a "gear head" till I got on line. However, not much has changed. I still "obsess" over chords, notes, "music", and keep my playing under the microscope, as it were.

I've learned a lot here at HC. One thing I've learned about my self is that I'm narrow-minded about gear. I know what I like and I don't feel the need to get out and try every guitar in the shop so I'll have some valid input about them on the forum.

Furthermore, and more to the point, I think music is the thing that draws most of us into guitar in the first place. Only after we spend some time at the music store do we begin to become gear-heads.

[t60 fan]

I totally agree with JT re: the online experience "escalating" my gear-related focus/awareness/obsession/whatever-you-call-it. Q is right on it about keeping perspective.

[theGOOCH]

Kinda along the same lines...LeBron James could still make me look silly in a game of one-on-one even if he were wearing sandals and I had $200 basketball shoes on.

All things being equal, gear helps, but the person using it is a more important factor.

[dadgad7]

I'll jump in here - I certainly feel guitars have a built in degree of quality/tone. A guitarist can either maximize that capability or detract from it. I've got a fingerstyle Takamine that sounds great, but a particular friend of mine makes it sound like total crap every time he picks it up, he plays too hard and the guitar loses focus and all dynamics.

I think the biggest factor is the player and the style they have.
but that being said, even Segovia is not going to make my laminated beater sound lush and beautiful.

did I answer the question or just muddy it up? sorry.....

[Queequeg]

so, if we could "generalize" (which will often get us in trouble here and elsewhere in life) we might possibly say, that "generally" musicians are perhaps *truer* to their art than the public at large.
that said, look how many professional musicians endorse strings, for example. a revenue generator for the musician, and a good marketing move for the manufacturer.
Do you suppose that "generally" most of these musicians could be swayed by a sweeter deal from a different string manufacturer? or are they going to be true to their hardware of choice?
just wondering.
there's a lot more discussion in here about which string is better. PB vs 80/20, Martin SP vs D'addario, and on and on, than there is about technique or practice or woodshedding. I'm wondering why that is.
maybe there's only so much you can say about it. just has to be done. no further discussion required?
what do you think?
me- I like to get up early in the morning and play for 30 minutes or more before I get ready for work. Then I play again after work usually for an hour or more before bed. In the morning I seem to "reap" what I "sowed" the night before, so sleeping on it in a sense apparently allows me just the right amount of time to absorb what I was working on the night before.
Recording has helped me to become aware of some shortcomings that I needed to work on, whereas, previously had no idea I was deficient in. I have been able to improve my playing somewhat after becoming a more critical listener to me, as opposed to (or in addition to) being a critical listener to the guitar I am playing
And I don't think that I am influenced much by which company's string I use or who endorsed it. sure, I have to change them now and again, so they're not completely dead, but beyond that, I don't think about them too much.
Or likely, that's the difference between a professional musician and a hack. Hacks like me don't have that level of insistence on precision and excellence, in both the equipment and the performer. I'm not sufficiently discreet.
what about you?

[Sweb]

Originally posted by JasmineTea To some, you may be stating the obvious. Furthermore, and more to the point, I think music is the thing that draws most of us into guitar in the first place. Only after we spend some time at the music store do we begin to become gear-heads.

 

 

+1

 

The forum has been a gear learning experience I would never have been motivated to get left to my own lazy ways. The guitar is what drew me to music. Not the otherway around.

[WaveRay]

Good thread and good input.
YEars ago I bought an acoustic in the Philippines while stationed there. The guitar was some exoctic wood and by our standards today, cheap. It was deficient in some ways but, after playing it for many years, I learned how to play "that" particular guitar.
So, I agree that a good guitarist can make a bad guitar sound much better than a crappy guitarist can make a good guitar sound. But, any guitarist will sound batter on a good guitar than he would on a crappy guitar. Not to mention feel much better about his ability.

I love my nice guitars, but I know it's me getting the sound out of them.

[Steverino]

Ideally, I think we would all like guitars and such to be of the best possible quality. That hopefully eliminates any possible techincal faults in your gear and allows your skills to come through unimpeded.

You may not have a chance against LaBron James in sandals and yourself in 200 shoes, but if he also had the 200 shoes it'd be even more ridiculous

I practice an hour every other day or so.

[riffmeister]

Originally posted by Queequeg When I hear great tone in concert or on a recording, I generally attribute it to the musician's hands, head and heart first, and only to a lesser extent to the particular guitar he's holding.

 

 

Yup, no question that ALOT of the tone we hear comes from the players fingers & technique.

[dadgad7]

I also do the 1/2 hour before work and probably 1-2 hours in the evening.

I'm lucky if half of that time is really productive, I have a tendency to serenade myself with things I already do well,
which is okay, but I really should spend more time 'woodshedding'

I've recently started doing that with the slide, which is working out quite well, but I know me, I'll sklip back into mylazy ways soon enough.

and yes....I do think many endorsees of products can be swayed by a sweeter deal,

look how many different guitars EVH has endorsed in his career
each time claiming - this one is the {censored}!

[Sweb]

Originally posted by Queequeg How much real woodshedding are you doing each day/week?

 

 

Too little? Too much? Don't see any one particular thing through to my own satisfaction before moving on to something else? Overworking a particular piece? Style-stuck/saturated? Lack of focus or too much? Little inspiration/motivation? No confidence to get out of the box? *gasp..next breath...*

 

Any of the above can have an aggravating effect whether a person is serious about playing or not. I draw contrasts to my playing largely from this forum and the music posted as well as the responses posted about them. I can beat myself up, which is my first inclination, and then turn around and suddenly get the inspiration and patience to be methodical.

 

All said, constant practicing will remain a good/bad medicine thing that will work out for the better.

[Queequeg]

Originally posted by dadgad7 I also do the 1/2 hour before work and probably 1-2 hours in the evening. I'm lucky if half of that time is really productive, I have a tendency to serenade myself with things I already do well, which is okay, but I really should spend more time 'woodshedding' I've recently started doing that with the slide, which is working out quite well, but I know me, I'll sklip back into mylazy ways soon enough.

 

yeah, but won't that be great when you're serenading yourself with some sweet slide???

[dadgad7]

Absolutely!! for some reason I really seem to be taking to the slide with success, maybe it's an easy skill, I'm not sure but I'm certainly diggin' it.

unlike yourself 'Q' , I ususally do my most creative stuff in the morning hours, with the serenading thing happening in the evening.

it's all good tho - keep playing brother!

[Michael Martin]

Great thread, Queeq. I recall (vaguely) a story I read a few years back about someone hearing an electric guitar being played solo in another room in a house he was visiting. From the sound--beautifully wrought tone, color, fluidity, and amazingly nuanced dynamics--the player was obviously a virtuoso, but when the writer looked into the room the sound was coming from, he saw that it was Eddie Van Halen playing a borrowed old POS with horrible action and rusty strings, through a crappy little POS practice amp.

I don't know whether that's an urban legend or not, but it makes sense to me. I posted a reply in a thread yesterday in which I mentioned that some days my (acoustic) guitar sounds better than others--but probably it is me primarily.

I like to play whenever I can. So true about reaping what I sow in the AM. I usually play for about an hour when I wake up, then might play here and there during the day when possible (I'm an academic so lots more freedom in the summer), and then I almost always play for 2 hours or more in the evening.

I am trying to build my repertoire of originals, because I am seriously hooked on this performance thing (after a grand total of 30 minutes of stage-time!) so I am very focused on learning my own pieces. This has more to do with getting the lyrics memorized than it does with becoming a better guitarist--but it's also interesting how lots and lots of playing and re-playing DOES make me better, even if I'm not focused on playing technique.

[Blackwatch]

This is interesting as I just bought my daughter a very cheap guitar (Hohner $129.00 New). I did quite a bit to set it up and I have to say it plays well and sounds great even though I originally felt guilty for buying my lovely daughter what I thought was a POS. She picked it out because it was red....

As for woodshedding....

I can go for a couple of days with out playing depending on my mood. But I have a gig sat. so I'm playing at least a set a night as my gig is a 4 hr. one.
But when I was "getting into shape" musically I played for up to 4 hrs./day....I also wasn't working much.
For me...It all depends on what you have going on.......

[JasmineTea]

Originally posted by Queequeg there's a lot more discussion in here about which string is better. PB vs 80/20, Martin SP vs D'addario, and on and on, than there is about technique or practice or woodshedding. I'm wondering why that is. maybe there's only so much you can say about it. just has to be done. no further discussion required? what do you think?

I think discussing technique is kind of hard to do on a forum, impractical. Showing someone the technique you're talking about is realy the only way. I'd guess this is why it does'nt come up too often.

 

As for practicing, I don't have any set (amount of) time.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Queequeg Or likely, that's the difference between a professional musician and a hack. Hacks like me don't have that level of insistence on precision and excellence, in both the equipment and the performer. I'm not sufficiently discreet. what about you?

Nah, I don't think you're a hack. I've been at it seriously since I was 9 (33 years) and to this day I still try and squeeze another month from a set of strings, unless I have an "important" gig, then I'll string it up.

[Frets99]

I make Esteban guitars cry......













It's just payback!!

[Hudman]

Originally posted by Queequeg I got to thinking about this when the subject of Esteban came up again yesterday. A couple of people said he's a good player. Well, you're hearing him on his Esteban guitar, right? An instrument that doesn't always get the highest marks in this forum. (I've never played one, and in fact havent heard him play one) How much of our time is spent obsessing over product, luthiery, onboard (baked-in) tone vs musician skills? How much of what we hear in terms of tone is a function or skill level of the player as opposed to the luthier and/or the bracing or rosewood or the mahogany or the HPL (or strings)? Are we as critical in our analysis of our own playing as we are of the instrument we play? When I hear great tone in concert or on a recording, I generally attribute it to the musician's hands, head and heart first, and only to a lesser extent to the particular guitar he's holding. When I'm playing and I don't like what i hear, I usually blame myself first, and only afterwards do I look for hardware problems. How much real woodshedding are you doing each day/week?

 

 

Good post, although, please keep in mind that Esteban is NOT playing the identical guitar he is selling. I am willing to bet his get special attention before he hits the set.

 

I do agree that great players can make bad guitars sound good. I have witnessed it numerous times over the years. I have also met several outstanding musicians over the years that never trained formally and never practice. Some folks are born with natural talent that boggles the mind. The great ones are the ones that maximize their talent.

[Hudman]

Originally posted by Queequeg I got to thinking about this when the subject of Esteban came up again yesterday. A couple of people said he's a good player. Well, you're hearing him on his Esteban guitar, right? An instrument that doesn't always get the highest marks in this forum. (I've never played one, and in fact havent heard him play one) How much of our time is spent obsessing over product, luthiery, onboard (baked-in) tone vs musician skills? How much of what we hear in terms of tone is a function or skill level of the player as opposed to the luthier and/or the bracing or rosewood or the mahogany or the HPL (or strings)? Are we as critical in our analysis of our own playing as we are of the instrument we play? When I hear great tone in concert or on a recording, I generally attribute it to the musician's hands, head and heart first, and only to a lesser extent to the particular guitar he's holding. When I'm playing and I don't like what i hear, I usually blame myself first, and only afterwards do I look for hardware problems. How much real woodshedding are you doing each day/week?

 

 

Good post, although, please keep in mind that Esteban is NOT playing the identical guitar he is selling. I am willing to bet his get special attention before he hits the set.

 

I do agree that great players can make bad guitars sound good. I have witnessed it numerous times over the years. I have also met several outstanding musicians over the years that never trained formally and never practice. Some folks are born with natural talent that boggles the mind. The great ones are the ones that maximize their talent.

 

Personally, I know I would be a lot better if I had actual goals. Goals force me to practice. For instance, if I was planning to play an open mic night, I would pick out material and practice it until I had it down cold.

 

I love guitar (like most folks here). I prefer to play the guitar but reading guitar related info on the internet and magazines is fun too. I also enjoy talking about guitars with people. Unfortunately, not very many of my close friends play. That's what makes this place cool.

[kwakatak]

Originally posted by Queequeg How much of our time is spent obsessing over product, luthiery, onboard (baked-in) tone vs musician skills?

I have to admit that I think more about gear but when it comes to musicianship I like to follow my "gut feeling".

Originally posted by Queequeg How much of what we hear in terms of tone is a function or skill level of the player as opposed to the luthier and/or the bracing or rosewood or the mahogany or the HPL (or strings)?

Well, I'd have to say that strings and plectrum play a big part on the "disposable" portion of the instrument (you should see how often I pull quasi-melted picks out of the dryer's lint trap! ) I've found that often the softer the touch to the strings, the better. For example, with harder picks you seem to get more of a percussive effect out of the guitar than an actual musical tone.

As for the structure of the guitar itself, honestly I don't feel qualified to comment. IMO any instrument will have its strong and weak points. The trick is finding a way to work around them - if possible.

As for player's skill, I think that the ear is something that needs to be trained more than the hands. IMO if a guitar is that hard to play, just find one that's more comfortable.

Originally posted by Queequeg Are we as critical in our analysis of our own playing as we are of the instrument we play?

Always. In fact, I'm always open for critique of my own style. That's why I like to post clips.

Originally posted by Queequeg When I hear great tone in concert or on a recording, I generally attribute it to the musician's hands, head and heart first, and only to a lesser extent to the particular guitar he's holding. When I'm playing and I don't like what i hear, I usually blame myself first, and only afterwards do I look for hardware problems.

Great point! That's something that I try to identify within my own playing. If my heart isn't in it at that moment, I'm more inclined to put it down instead of "work" through it. It is called "playing" after all.

Originally posted by Queequeg How much real woodshedding are you doing each day/week?

I don't have a set schedule. Usually I will only play late in the evening after my wife and young son have gone to bed. Even when I do "woodshed" I don't have a set routine. I usually either just focus on one piece of music that's grabbed my attention, play aimlessly (noodle) or just go through the favorites in my repetoire. When it's all said and done, I'm lucky to get an hour a day in. I actually like b.s.ing about guitars more!

[FingerBone Bill]

In a similar vein - It has often struck me as strange that when we purchase a new guitar if we post anything about it here then it is invariably a picture of the instrument.

In that respect we are no different from most manufacturers and retailers websites. All you seem to see there also is pretty pictures.

What we should all be posting are soundclips - the looks of an instrument should always be secondary to it's primary function - what does it sound like!

[babablowfish]

When I play my "good" guitars (beautiful aurally and visually) I play better and with more feeling than when I am playing my "beater." I believe the esthetic is a seemless whole. The guitar can only put out what I put in, but with the right guitar I can put in something extra and then I get that back.

[d03nut]

I think we all have a lot of "biases" that we're completely unaware of that effect everything that we do/say/feel/etc. Obviously extends to our "musicality" as well......