Removing a UST- Need Some Advice?

[da mayor]

I have a J45 with a Fishman UST that's loose and rattling around. Well, at least from all appearances the wire is loose. Since I don't play amplified anyway, I thought I'd just take the sucker out the next time I change strings. This looks like it will be pretty straightforward, at least until I get to the under saddle part, but I could use some expert advice.

 

Do any of you know how easy/difficult it is to remove the plate from under the saddle? and how you do this? Remove the saddle (that would be an obvious first step) and lift out the plate from there? Also, my assumption is that the plate is pretty thin (but don't actually know that for a fact) and that removing it will not have an effect on the action. That is, I won't have to install a slightly higher saddle. Does anyone know if that's correct? I'd love to find some step by step instruction on how to do this if anyone knows of a website that might help. I've done a websearch but not found anything. Any guidance appreciated (including if you think I'm an idiot for doing this at all).

[Cldplytkmn]

you shouldn't really notice the action change much... the guitar might even sound better without it... there is a chance you'll have to get another saddle...

 

i think (operative word right there) that you'll have to cut the wire attached to it to get it out, and you'll also have to detach (cut) the wire off of the endpin jack unless you want to hear it rattle around inside

[Freeman Keller]

If you don't want to change the action measure the UST (calipers or micrometer) and shim accordingly, or make a new saddle. If you have to shim it I've used a piece of credit card temporarily. Bob Colosi sells little ebony shims that are made for the purpose.

[da mayor]

Thanks Freeman and Cldplytkmn. Well, no one's said that I'm an idiot (yet), so I'll plan on going ahead. Sounds like a possibility that I'll need a new saddle, since I'd prefer not to shim it if the action changes noticeably.

 

Does the ust plate (that's probably not the correct term, but I'm sure you all get my drift) come out through the saddle slot, or from underneath? I'm trying to visualize how this is installed in the first place. I know nothing about the electronic side of guitars (and very little about the rest, but that's another story) so I'm just guessing that the ust plate sits on top of the bridge plate with a hole in the bridge for the wiring, and that once the wire is cut inside that it's just a matter of lifting out the saddle and then the ust plate. Is that really all there is to it? Am I missing anything?

 

Thanks again for the replies. I don't often ask questions here, but when I do , the two of you always seem to have solid information to give. It's much appreciated.

[Cldplytkmn]

well... its not an issue of being an idiot... haha... but not many people do this, although if you don't EVER use it, you may be able to improve the tone by removing it, so i can see why you'd want to.

 

the actual part under the saddle is called the transducer usually, and it sits in the saddle slot under the saddle... there is a hole in said slot that the wire runs through on its way to the endpin. The jack looks like this

 

you can take the outermost part off with a half inch wrench (i think thats generally the size) and then you should be able to slide it into the inside of the guitar, and take it out of the guitar...

 

you could just cut the wires and put it back if you want, i tried my hardest to find one of the new slick endpins that taylor and larrivee are using, which would fit that hole perfectly and not have a big hole (they also hold straps a little better) but i couldn't find one at any of the parts places online... you could probably call taylor or larrivee and get one for a few bucks.

[da mayor]

Yup, I don't ever use it, and improving the sound is my ultimate goal, though I don't know how much it will be. But some I would guess, since the result will be complete contact between saddle and bridge. Thanks for the pic Cldplytkmn, very useful. I think this is going to be fun.

[Freeman Keller]

From Fishman's website, here is the instructions on how to install their UST. Removal should be the reverse, as they say. As Cldplytkmn says, one minor problem will be plugging the hole in the end - a normal tapered end pin won't work. StewMac might have something or you could somehow shim a normal pin. Good luck

 

Fishman instructions

[Terry Allan Hall]

If it's just the wire rattling around, why not just take a piece of tape and secure the wire? The sound will be indistinguishable, either way.

 

Someday, you might need to plug your J-45 in, or sell/trade it, and it'll be worth more that way.

 

Just a thought...

[da mayor]

Terry: And a good thought it is too, don't think it hasn't occoured to me. But, tape is likely only a temporary solution, at best. Eventually it will dry up, the wire will be loose again, and there goes that annoying rattle. I could take it to a tech and pay him good money to install some sort of clamp (assuming there's not one there already that the wire has just gotten loose from), or I could try that repair myself and save a few bucks. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult.

 

From my perspective I'm getting rid of a nuisance piece of equiptment that I'll never use, and potentially improving the tone of my guitar. That second reason may or may not prove to be true, but only one way of finding out. Even if there is a difference in tone, that difference may or may not turn out to be very significent or noticeable. Either way, I figure I will have learned something in the process and the guitar will be just fine. If I (or anyone else) ever want to amplify it, I figure I can either reinstall the Fishman (from Fishman's website (thank you Freeman) this doesn't look terribly complicated) or install something like a K&K mini.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

By the way, any judgements about the degree of change in tone, if any, will be purely subjective. I wonder if there's any way to make a more objective comparison. Any ideas, anyone?

[Ronaldo]

Sure, record it with the under-saddle pickup in, keep the same strings, then record it again without the pickup with the same strings back in place. I've taken out shims before and there was a clear difference. Part of the reason is better contact when there is no shim. Just make sure the bottom of the saddle is perfectly flat (you can hold it flat against a small wood block and sand both against a flat surface to get the bottom flat if it's not already).

 

 

 

I'm taking the under saddle transducer out of my J-45 too. Taking it out can only help the tone and I don't like the sound of UST's anyway.

[da mayor]

Thanks Ronaldo. Good suggestions. Do you plan to also replace the endpin when you do this? Cldplytkmn has suggested that and I like the idea. I haven't checked with Taylor or Larivee yet to see if I can get one from them, but that's next. Stewmac may have something also, but I'm at work so can't spend too much time at the moment.

[Cldplytkmn]

i looked all over stew-mac and allparts, and didn't find a thing... ran a search on a few forums and when the same issue came up, nobody knew where to find one except that taylor and larrivee put them on new guitars... so they'd be the ones to point you in the right direction... obviously somebody makes em for them.

[Freeman Keller]

Shootin' from memory, I think the standard endpin is a 1/2 inch hole reamed at 5 degrees. I think a standard endpin jack is 9/16 national fine. You could get someone with a lathe to turn a plastic or ebony or whatever matches your bridge pins pin with parallel sides and could thread it 9/16 like the jack. Use the little nut and washer off the jack and you should be good to go. StewMac does have the dimensions of a normal pin so you can get the head size correct.

 

Another thought is to plug the hole and redrill and ream it for a standard pin. Or you could just remove the wires from the jack and put it back in.

 

Or give Bob Colosi a call - I'll bet he can make something for you or knows where you can get it.

[da mayor]

Thanks for looking Cldplytkmn, appreciate it. I'll call Taylor and Larivee and see what I can come up with. Freeman, I like the idea of having one turned in ebony, now if I can find someone with a lathe. I used to do some turning years ago, but haven't had a lathe in a long time. Colosi may be a good idea too. I got a saddle from him, real nice guy. If all else fails, I'll just replace the jack, it'll make it easier if someone wants to reinstall the electronics at some time in the future.

 

Thanks again guys.

[Cldplytkmn]

getting one turned in bone or ebony would be cool... but you might have to get the hole tapered to friction fit the pin.

[jackwr]

Personally if it sounds good I'd just cut the wire off and leave the rest alone. You'll know it's useless plugging it in and you won't change the action at all. With the wire gone no rattle. If the ust installation was good I feel you have more chance messing up the sound than enhancing it.

 

just my 02

[da mayor]

 

getting one turned in bone or ebony would be cool... but you might have to get the hole tapered to friction fit the pin.

 

 

Good point.

[Freeman Keller]

The hole is already oversize to fit the jack. I wouldn't taper it any more. Better to plug it with a hunk of dowel (rose or 'hog - the endblock is probably 'hog), then drill and ream it to 5 degrees for any endpin you choose. Most gits have some sort of wood or plastic binding at the joint of the two side pieces - you would have to figure out how to deal with that (the rim on the endpin might cover it ok). Here are the specs of a normal endpin

 

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Acoustic_guitar_bridge_pins/1/Endpins/Specs.html#details

[da mayor]

Finally removed the ust this weekend. I had expected that if there were any difference in tone at all, it would be minimal, but turns out the difference is significent. Richer, deeper, more resonant, slightly quicker response. Seems to me as if by eliminating the barrier between the saddle and the bridge the top is more free to move. Probably just more vibration being transmitted to the top. Anyway, glad I did it, would recommend it to anyone. I'm now officially anti-ust. Seems like a tone killer to me. Go K&K pure western, young man.

 

I left in the endpin, haven't deceided yet what I want to do about that, although I did find someone to turn one for me if I deceide to go that route. Thanks for all the advice folks.

[mtbiker5150]

I've been thinking about doing this for awhile now. I never plug my Songbird Deluxe in so I was curious to see how it would sound without the UST. I already updated to a bone bridge and after hearing how your Gibby turned out I'm definately going to try it.

 

thanks

[da mayor]

It's real easy to do mtbiker, and made a real difference in tone. By the way, I also changed the saddle to bone (a couple of months ago) but I'm seriously thiking of putting the tusq saddle back in. The bone seems to produce a bit of a brittle sound. I also changed out the pins for rosewood ones with pearl dots. Those will probably go too.

[mtbiker5150]

Yeah, it took longer for the solder iron to heat up than it did to get the thing out. Makes a difference for sure. I too was thinking about going back to Tusq. I noticed the same thing that you did, that the sound was a little more brittle with the bone. Also the action is a little to low for me after removing the UST so a new Tusq saddle is about 20 bucks cheaper than a new bone one. I'm glad I did this and thanks for the suggestion!!