Frustration with a student

[brahmz118]

I have a student who wants to play simple, mellow fingerstyle guitar. In particular she seems to like my chord + melody solo arrangements, since she has no interest in singing.

 

At the beginning I would basically tab or notate my arrangements for her, and then go over every single detail (fingerings, rhythms, dynamics, etc.), which she would make little notes about in the scores. With this system, she could usually get to about 75% - 80% mastery on a piece. There would still be a fair amount of mistakes and pauses, but that would be about her limit. Sometimes this would be after 2 months focusing on a single song. And these weren't overly complex arrangements. No barre chords or huge stretches, for example.

 

My challenge has been to move beyond this stage. I didn't just want to be a tab source for her. I felt like I was doing 100% of the thinking and just handing it to her -- just like some book she could buy at the store.

 

So I tried to get her to learn some theory. It didn't stick, and I even felt the lessons were getting too cerebral when I pushed her. To this day for example, she hasn't learned that I IV and V are typically major and ii, iii, and vi are typically minor, in a diatonic major key.

 

I tried to get her to learn to play simple melodies by ear. She wouldn't get very far. She would just stop and say she didn't know what the next note was. It didn't matter if I asked her to choose a song she knew well.

 

I tried to get her to develop her own method of 'fleshing out' an arrangement if I just gave her the melody in tab and chord symbols. Her best efforts were wrong notes galore. She never really understood the concept of chord + melody from my arrangements, she just learned to decipher the tab.

 

I'm stuck, and she's starting to get discouraged. She says everything she plays sounds bad, and in a way she's right. I know I can always put all the responsibility on her, and say that if she wants to get better she has to find the motivation. But I wish I could find some approach to meet her halfway, or at least to spark some creativity on her part.

 

When I started learning guitar, it was all about strumming and cowboy chords. It was pretty mindless, but from there I progressed to more intricate flatpicking (runs between chords), and then ultimately to fingerstyle, where I've landed more permanently. She has no interest in strumming, just plucking / fingerstyle. She'll do flatpicking exercises if I ask her to, but I want to teach her the style she wants to learn.

 

At this point I would love to hear any ideas from people who might be able to relate, either to me or to my student. I have a second student who has been able to make great progress learning the same style, though she comes from a piano background. The first student has little if any prior musical experience. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[MyM.O.]

Have you taught her to read musical notation, or just tabs?

[JasmineTea]

Simplify. Give her easier pieces to learn. I suggest a watered down version of The Boxer for starters. I'd think a beginner would get more joy from playing a simple piece all the way through than stumbling through something complicated

Theory, try this: Teach her a simple melody and have her hum along with what she plays. Next step: The same melody but with a harmony-melody a 3rd above, have her hum the 3rd part. I'm not sure why it works, but for some reason humming along with played melodies gets the music in their heads, causes it to make sense, especialy when they learn the 3rd part.

Next would be the 5th.

[brahmz118]

She knows EGBDF and FACE on the treble clef, though not quite at-sight. I have given her a few pieces in standard notation, mostly 1st position. She's fine working slowly with anything notated or tabbed.

But getting her to use notation in a piano book to create a guitar arrangement would be way beyond her at this point. She could transpose it I told her what key, but she wouldn't be able to figure out a good guitar-friendly key on her own. She could slowly put the notes into tab on her own, but the LH fingerings wouldn't be the best choices. I would just have to end up correcting most of her work.

[brahmz118]

She's a huge Simon and Garfunkel fan! She even bought the entire Bridge Over Troubled Water songbook for piano and guitar (chords, no tab). So far it hasn't proven to be a worthwhile purchase.

Her goal was always to play something the melody, so people would recognize it, and she's not satisfied just playing the guitar part. At one point I showed her the finger roll for Dylan's Don't Think Twice, and then I played it with the melody and simplified arpeggiations instead of the roll, and she preferred the latter -- because it was more complete. With just the roll, it could have been any song.

She's not intensely shy or anything, but her voice just doesn't seem to work in any sort of musical way. I've asked her to sing 'la' or hum a cappella before, and it's mostly microtonal or unintelligible. I can try the harmony humming idea, though I must be out of it because I'm having trouble doing it right now! Am I supposed to change the chord if necessary? Like if the melody note is G and the chord is C major, do I still hum a B? Wow I suck at this. I appreciate the suggestion though. I'll keep thinking about it.

[FingerBone Bill]

I'm tempted to suggest that she buys a kazoo!

It really seems to me that she is trying to walk before she can run. It just may be that she has to accept the fact that fingerstyle may be beyond her at the moment.

I wouldn't want to try and play fingerstyle without a very solid grounding in basic chords and inversions...

Maybe that kazoo is a good idea?

[MyM.O.]

Originally posted by JasmineTea Simplify. Give her easier pieces to learn...I'd think a beginner would get more joy from playing a simple piece all the way through than stumbling through something complicated

 

I'm thinking the same thing. It sounds like she's trying to learn more advanced material before she's mastered simpler things. JT puts it well that she would get more joy from it. Now all she feels is frustration.

[Hudman]

Originally posted by FingerBone Bill It really seems to me that she is trying to walk before she can run. It just may be that she has to accept the fact that fingerstyle may be beyond her at the moment. I wouldn't want to try and play fingerstyle without a very solid grounding in basic chords and inversions...

 

 

I agree. I would refuse to teach a beginner fingerstyle if they were just starting out. There are many good guitarists that have many years of playing under their belts that can't play fingerstyle.

 

Put a pick in her hand and start over with her.

[JasmineTea]

Originally posted by brahmz118 she could usually get to about 75% - 80% mastery on a piece.

Bill, Hud, I get the feeling from this statement she's a little beyond the kazoo phase.

[min7b5]

Sounds like you

[knockwood]

Originally posted by min7b5 Keep giving her pieces, but take your time to find stuff that is adding just a little more weight to the bar each time. Make sure it

[Bugsgalore]

While some of the earlier posters' who suggested starting with flatpicking or strumming (as opposed to fingerstyle) have a lot of merit. I have to say I started with fingerstyle (classical) and didn't pick up a flat pick for the first seven years I played (I play as many ways as I can now). However based on what I can remember being especially challenging when I first started (back in the early jurassic)...here are some of the things that helped me learn.

First, how much of your student's problem/s are the result of poor right and left had technique? If she is not fretting properly or her right hand is "sloppy" (e.g. poor finger seperation) she might benefit from some simple warmup exercises/scales played as "warmups". Memorizing a few movable scale patterns (C or G) might also help her ear develop. The standard classical im, ma, ia in rest strokes then open strokes, with incremental 1/2 step scale movements (three up then three down) for each "picking pattern" is a great exercise and really promotes finger independence. An alternative to classical expercises would be a few simple "Travis" picking exercises with alternating bass (you could even multitask this to drill chord shapes into her muscle memory). A critical point for any of these exercises is that she really focuses on good techniques and producing good tones. Even 5 minutes a day of this kind of thing can really help.

I don't warmup with scales or patterns nearly as much as I should (or used to) but it sure helps when I do....loosens the joints....lets me focus on producing nice tone before trying to create...."music". You might try to sell her the idea from with a sports metaphore.

Another approach might be to give her some really simple music to play along with the more challenging stuff....perhaps something that doesn't require a lot of simultaneous thumb finger right hand activity. Simple pieces/arrangements that reenforce string to finger relationships (e.g. i:G, m:B, a:E) or alternating strokes (e.g. im or ma) on the same string could help teach good technique. The trick here is to make sure that the simple stuff can be learned in 1-2 weeks so that she is constantly learing new tunes. This will ensure that the pieces you give her are "simple" enough....they can get more complex as she progresses. Start with twinkle twinkle or mary had a little lamb if you have to!!

I think the latter approach was a constant theme in my classical training (from age 9-20). This approach also promotes learing how to sight read (if you use notation) and allows the student to boost morale with the simpler stuff while flailing away at the complex stuff. This approach also allows the student to develop a repetoire of both simpler and more "complex" tunes while improving her mastery of "the basics" with the simpler stuff.

You may have already tried all this though......Good Luck!! You've got more balls than I do....I havn't ever tried to teach anyone!

Cheers,

Matt.

[brahmz118]

Cool, thanks everyone for adding to the think tank. There's quite a bit of wisdom here.

I should mention that she's been at it for over 4 years, and we've tried things like taking a few months off, or just doing listening for a while. She's a good-hearted person in her mid 30s, and playing some mellow fingerstyle guitar would really fit her personality, but sometimes I just think she doesn't have the mind for it (and I know that sounds terrible).

At one point when I decided to focus on flatpicking / strumming for a while, I thought she would develop a stronger, quicker, and more instinctive left hand, so that she would later be able to focus on the more intricate right hand stuff. With open chords and strumming, I would give her chord progressions or complete songs, and she would get to maybe 90% on them. Her left hand switching was fine. But when we went back to fingerstyle, her right hand coordination was actually much worse.

But the worst part was that the 90% mastery strumming through a song was completely unsatisfying to her. She could strum through Imagine from start to finish, but with no runs or motifs, the average listener wouldn't really know what song it was. She doesn't really hang out with singers or other musicians, so I can see the limits of learning accompaniment. Instead of a big banner at the finish line, there was a giant sign that read "So What?" It didn't matter if we picked guitar-based songs or piano-based songs, the results were the same. Meh.

But I think I feel a little better about my free tab service now. Though repertoire is definitely another challenge. Finding ways to add increments of weight to the bar is much easier said than done. It's easier to get a kid to jump for joy after playing Twinkle Twinkle than a 30something adult who listens to mostly adult contemporary and classic rock. I can't count how many times I started off an arrangement that seemed totally in her range, only to come to a B section or bridge that ruined everything. Here, There, and ... Never Mind. While My Guitar Gently ... Goes Back In Its Case.

It's frustrating. But we will keep taking those baby steps, even though the baby can vote and drink alcohol and rent a car. I don't want her to quit, though at this point I wouldn't be too shocked if she did.

[t-harper]

Oh Wow! This brings back the days of a young player forceing my way though the instructor. I know what I want, and He/She is only the teacher. Forgive the length of this.

My instructor saw this comming, and with little comforting strokes broke me without even realizing it.

My goal was to play in a group (not really big, just to have fun for parties, and personal enjoyment). I was pressing to increase my list of songs, rushed the ability to play them, and even hounded Him for ideas on composers that put together quartet sheet music. He directly saw me trying very hard to go around him, and surpass my weekly instructions.

Playing clairnet a B flat instrament he pushed me to try to transpose into a C major sheet music for those Violins/Cello's. This ment I had to understand the song Major chord settings and change it into C Major. The sharps and flats at the very start at the music. (forgive me if my comments are a bit off, it has been 20 years after all since I talked music.) This pulled me back into the lessons all over again. Working on my composing work with sheet music. It also pulled me back into playing the music properly, I had to do it right before I could preform it infront of others. Or even get his blessing on letting me play for others. Espically with with others in tow, the quartet. There were the problems of, "I'm your instructor, not your quartet's. Your going to have to explain this to them yourself." Problem.

Ok to your problem directly, rather than thinking of old times. First off She wants to play it for her "Friends" to reconize as a song. Not just a Chord thing, with singing. I personally understand the singing thing. I sound like an elephant in a trunk when I sing. Have her to get her guitar to sing the melody. From notations only in her hand written scribbling. (I curse tab's as a way to cheat around reading music. Much like the internet way of spelling "u 2 cn C it.") I'm sure she will use tabs then transpose from there. Don't worry after a few months of transposing, reading music will be much easier for her to understand.

My instructor broke me from using him to get to where I wanted to be with a very simple stroke. "You do it, I know you can and have seen you do it before." This was ofcourse after a couple of weeks of prep from him.

Shortly after that breaking away from him (leaning on him for my cheating around lessons.) He showed me how to listen to my song and understand what my instrument was singing. This brought me to hear notes on records. Individual notes, and shortly afterwards rifts that were played. This broke me into playing along (with no sheet music at all) with records. (Now a days CD's) I complied a few songs that I enjoyed to play, Pete Fountian, Benny Goodman, and a few classical songs. I was required to write them down as best I could. Clarinet doesn't have tabs so I can't go that way, it was full on written sheet music. Then he brought back how to properly score it with song notation and beat. The sharps and flats at the start, as well as the 3/4 or 4/4 beats. He really loved to give me heck when the song changed in the middle of the score.

Ok about guitar and it's differences. She needs to hear the chords when that is all that is being played. As well as grow to hear the Bass, Lead, and back up. And hear the individual players doing what they do best. So may I suggest one lesson you open with is just a CD of a song she likes or is pushing you into learning. Have Her listen to the song, then replay it and you join in, but have your guitar turned so she can't see what your doing. (Sit next to her, not infront of her) See if she can hear the lead, and what your doing together. See if She can slowly jump in and join into the piece. If She is having problems, this would be a great time to open up the conversation about learning chords/scales/rythem etc. Add in the learning of these things with Your descission on direction you want to move. Basically pulling Her back into your lessons.

I know you already understand this but I have to say it for general purposes. Lessons are fluid, students like to lead to early, use taticts to pull them back into the lesson. And most importantly, "Those that understand don't question the reason or the why, but trail on and do, do, do untill they can't get by!" An old saying my Instructor kept saying after my chastitizing that brought me back into the lesson.

I hope this helps, or gives you ideas you may use.

All my best,

Thomas

[t-harper]

It just hit me I left out one part that helped greatly with my understanding of my Instructor's role.

My Instructor asked me to record myself, and then play along with it. As part of one of my weekly classes. It took me almost all month to get it right. The idea that I was a better player than my Instructor was hearing, or others for that matter.

I Had to listen to myself over and over, untill I finally got the song right from beginning to end. None of those computer cut and paste, partitions of the score to make it sound right all the way through. Cassetts are great for this tool. Even though I tried to cheat by getting parts right, then picking up the recording where I messed up. My Instructor could hear the breaks in the recording and pointed them out every time.

After two weeks working on the main song getting it right. He had me play the song I had recorded, and record a back up tape. Now this was hard. For Guitar work it could be the chord works that is so needed.

Take both in, have Her show you not only how they sound, but play the piece with a backgound tape playing. Showing you both parts done properly.

For a twist have Her add her own voice into the mix with some slides, hammers, etc. Where ever She is in your instructons.

If she is playing poorly, let Her listen to it. It will make an impact on her. And help her to understand that even with just chord work, and some finger board work together, She can pull off a great song. Not just a song that She thinks everyone can understand. Which I'm sure with mistakes in there people get the idea, but don't hear her voice in there.

Just a thought added late,

Thomas

[Bugsgalore]

Dang, 4 years is a long time...... I'm surprised she has stuck with it this long if she plateaued so early. I assumed it was a 6mos to 1 year type situation.

This must be really frustrating for you as a teacher......Perhaps she will break out of it on her own.....perhaps she'll quit..... One thig is for certain; she's gotta be pretty brave/stubborn to keep at it for this long, especially starting at 30..... That's pretty impressive dedication given her frustration. On the otherhand perhaps you are really good at motivating her despite her frustration (kudos to you...being able to motivate students is a rare gift....in any field!).

The nusery rhymes were kind of a worst case scenario....just about everyone (in the US) tacitly knows those melodies.....given her age, maybe something like "House of the Rising Sun" or "Wild Thing".........would be more appropriate (I'm guessing you've tried those already though).

One other question: Do you organize recitals or performances for your students? Perhaps the pressure of performance and positive reenforcement of seeing your other students play might help her along (it might also just stress her out). How about a group playing situation...do you have other students with similar skills who would be interested in ensemble pieces? Being part of a group of players might spur her along as well....then again if she's shy/self-concious I imagine she wouldn't go for that kind of thing.

That's a toughie.....good luck

Cheers,

Matt.

[brahmz118]

Thanks for the encouragement! I only have three guitar students right now and none of them want to be in a recital. When I mention the possibility of a recital this student just laughs.

I wish she were the type that tries to 'lead too early,' but she has shown very little self-direction after the first few months, when it was the #1 exciting development in her life.

Since then it's been fading gradually. Initially she would always reschedule missed lessons, now she just skips them. I struggle with the fact that she turns away from music during stress, instead of towards it. Last year she decided to do bi-weekly lessons instead of weekly. There have been so many times when a decent series of lessons got interrupted by something for a few weeks, and then all progress seemed to disappear.

Once she was doing really well with a song, but then had to miss several weeks due to family issues and other stress. Then when we resumed she had stopped working on the piece altogether. She said she still wanted to play it, but she didn't practice it at all for the next three lessons, so it just sort of fell off the list. Many songs have met this same fate. I can't force her to practice at home, so when she shows up to the lesson unprepared I try to turn it into a supervised practice session. Or sometimes I try to focus on improvisation. Or sometimes I go back to some theory.

My approach has taken on so many different directions it feels like I haven't been consistent, although I have to remind myself that consistency was the first thing I tried. I could probably buy a really nice guitar with the money she has given me in lessons, but sometimes I feel like I'd give it all back just to witness the great breakthrough that now seems like an impossibility.

Meanwhile my newest guitar student has surpassed her in just 2 months, though this student already knew theory from majoring in piano during college. But still, she's arranging her own fingerstyle songs already, and just needs a few fingering suggestions from me. She's also well on her way to flatpicking scales, strumming with effective palm muting, and improvising. Maybe I should lock them in the same room together and see if they even out.

Thanks again to all for the support. I'll let you know if anything changes.

[MyM.O.]

Originally posted by brahmz118 Meanwhile my newest guitar student has surpassed her in just 2 months, though this student already knew theory from majoring in piano during college. But still, she's arranging her own fingerstyle songs already, and just needs a few fingering suggestions from me. She's also well on her way to flatpicking scales, strumming with effective palm muting, and improvising. Maybe I should lock them in the same room together and see if they even out.

 

Actually, that could be a good idea - them playing together, working on the same song with one playing rhythm, the other lead, then switching off. It could be motivational for her.

[kwakatak]

It sounds like her heart just isn't in it. You can't force that on somebody.

[martingibson70]

I haven't posted in a while but I will here. Hats off to you for making a personal investment in this student's learning. Have you tried group lessons? You'd be amazed at the benefits. I teach them in small groups. They like the social aspect and they teach each other. One thing I recently did to help a group of 3 to get over their hump was invite another student that was playing Eruption come hang out. A kid their age shredding some VH lit a fire under then that I couldn't have done with a flame thrower.

Some musical interaction and group learning, practice, and performance can be a great motivator. Peer approval is a huge motivating factor. Use it.

[Tedster]

That's why I rarely teach private lessons. Most people don't want to learn guitar. They want to be guitar "students". They want to be spoonfed. They either can't, or don't want to, make the necessary connection with what you're teaching them and the real world.

I tell my students..."If this were a carpentry class, and I taught you how to build a doghouse, would you just go on building doghouses for the rest of your lives? Or would you take what you'd learned, and, with a little extra help, realize you could build a shed with those same techniques? And, with a little more, in terms of pouring foundations and wiring, build a garage? And then build a house?"

These people like your student are content to build doghouses for the rest of their guitar playing career.

Cut her loose. If she wants to play, she will. Odds on, within two weeks her guitar will be safely in its case under her bed, where it will stay.

[kwakatak]

Originally posted by Tedster That's why I rarely teach private lessons. Most people don't want to learn guitar. They want to be guitar "students". They want to be spoonfed. They either can't, or don't want to, make the necessary connection with what you're teaching them and the real world. I tell my students..."If this were a carpentry class, and I taught you how to build a doghouse, would you just go on building doghouses for the rest of your lives? Or would you take what you'd learned, and, with a little extra help, realize you could build a shed with those same techniques? And, with a little more, in terms of pouring foundations and wiring, build a garage? And then build a house?" These people like your student are content to build doghouses for the rest of their guitar playing career. Cut her loose. If she wants to play, she will. Odds on, within two weeks her guitar will be safely in its case under her bed, where it will stay.

 

 

Great post. That's what my impression is as well. I know that she's in her 30s and has responsibilities but if she's cancelled lessons and shows signs of not practicing, well then she obviously does not have the dedication to make time for it.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Originally posted by knockwood From a relative novice's POV: Some of us have a very difficult time assimilating anything theoretical or academic. Some kind of block. Math anxiety, maybe... I'm the kind of boob you can explain something to a trillion times, and it's still not going to be clear to me until I've executed it physically. Even then, it may take me a while to understand the connection between what I'm doing and the theory behind it. This is backwards, but some minds work that way. There is no time limit. It seems like the frustration arising on both sides may be from a sense that she should be further along than she is by this point in time. There is no reason to rush, and that kind of pressure becomes self-perpetuating and will only exacerbate frustration. I like JT's suggestion to keep giving her easy pieces that she likes. It sounds like she may get more of a sense of progress from doing than from understanding what she's doing. Nothing wrong with that. But continue trying to teach her theory. Baby steps. If things get too cerebral, just back off on the difficulty a little, or back off on how much you're trying to convey at once. Give her assignments between sessions, but make it real "gimme" type stuff in terms of difficulty.

Absolutely, knockwood...she needs to, first of all, enjoy what she's doing, because if she's having a good experience, she'll be motivated!

Backtrack her to whatever she CAN do and THEN re-start her slowly from there...everyone learns at their own pace!

[gtrdave]

Originally posted by brahmz118 I know I can always put all the responsibility on her, and say that if she wants to get better she has to find the motivation. But I wish I could find some approach to meet her halfway, or at least to spark some creativity on her part.

 

 

Motivation, drive, determination, etc...that inner (some may say outer or a combination of both) force that propels us to learn and do what it is that we wish to do is crucial to how far we will progress in whatever it is that we're trying to accomplish.

 

Assuming clear explanation of the material (a weakness that I sometimes have), it's up to the student in their time away from the teacher to not only learn what they've been given but to progress beyond that.

I know that when I started playing the guitar, nothing got in my way and there was an unexplainable motivation to be with the instrument and learn all that I could learn over and above what my teacher could teach me.

Not to brag but my first teacher told my mom, "I've got nothing left to show him. He's gone beyond me.". Regardless of the truth of that statement (I thought and still think the guy is a great musician) it is burned in my memory of just how aggressive and hungry I was for the guitar.

How I wish all of my students shared that kind of passion but, sadly, that kind of focus on any instrument is not 'normal'.

 

There's also the fact that some people may have a difficult time grasping the guitar and/or the theory of music even at it's most basic roots.

This combined with a lack of desire and the result is probably a person who says in a conversation with someone many years from now "Yeah, I played the guitar for a little while but it was just too hard" or "I just didn't get into it" or "It's just not for me".

 

What to do? Be motivating in your words, be encouraging in your criticism, be simple in your approach, and always ask "do you have any questions?".

[brahmz118]

This is starting to remind me a bit of my college days, when I came to the somewhat cynical conclusion that there are no good teachers, only good students. At which point I stopped going to my lecture classes and just read the textbooks on my own. And I learned much more that way.

I appreciate everyone's feedback. I do sense that everyone here 'made it' in some way. That is, we've all found some reason to love the guitar through good and bad, and all we need to do is put our fingers to the strings to remind ourselves why. Well, I guess that's inevitable on a guitar enthusiast forum!

It's sad to think that her guitar might end up under her bed gathering dust. It's also sad to think that she might always see the creation of music as something distant and inaccessible -- that it's only for 'smart people' or naturally gifted people. I'll try to have a discussion with her at the next lesson. Hopefully we can come to some agreement about the reality of guitar playing.