cheap guitar help?

[MurderbyDeath]

I was given a lori (f644 though I'm sure almost no one here knows lori models) by a friend. Its about 30 yrs old (estimated), and the strings are probably almost as old. It has old tuning pegs that work but are stiff (they look newer than the rest of the guitar because they are so white), the finish is still really nice, but the wood is sorta chipped on the edges. The frets are rusted, and the nut is cracked (not to the point that its falling apart, but its chipped and has a few lines). Also, I'm not sure if the body is warped, or if the problem is solely in the neck what its problem is. I did the gap test thing, and am still confused. Pretty much I know that it isn't straight, the strings slightly ring off of other frets in high postitions, but nothing to terrible. However, it is VERY easy to play, and sounds suprisingly nice for a guitar of its size. Anyway, my question is: is it worth it to put new strings on? Even though strings are only $10, I don't want to waste the money. I've been playing for 4 years, and my fernandes reya is awful to play at the level I want to play. I want to be able to practice complicated finger styles, and classical peices. This Lori would be great play for learning's sake until I get a new guitar, but I don't know if putting new strings on it is worth it.

 

I'm sorry if this sounds stupid, its just that I'm desperate to practice but an afraid that putting new strings will just make the guitar even worse, and then I'll be down a set of strings. Any opinions would be appreciated.

 

And if you guys think its worth a shot, do you know the best way to clean a guitar up to the best it can possibly be? I want to donate it after I buy a new one since it really is a nice little guitar for poor mini people like me, but I want to make it as perfect as possible so it doesn't seem like I'm donating garbage.

[JasmineTea]

I'd go over the fretboard with fine steel wool, oil the tuners (take them apart, put them back together if possible) string it up and play it. If you like it, keep it.

[Freeman Keller]

More good advice from JT. In my opinion strings are cheap (you should be able to get non coated ones for more like 5 or 6 bucks a set) - change them and see what you really have. Normally I don't like oil on the tuners but maybe something that will penetrate and clean them - wipe as much off as you can. A damp rag is about all you should use to clean it - unless you find some dedicated guitar cleaner. You will hear of folks using lemon oil on the fretboard - it can be hard on the finish and I would avoid it or use very lightly.

 

If you would like some more help with the action and neck angle thing let me know - we can go over that with you. Many old guitars turn out to be wonderful players once the issues get resolved.

[MurderbyDeath]

 

Originally posted by Freeman Keller More good advice from JT. In my opinion strings are cheap (you should be able to get non coated ones for more like 5 or 6 bucks a set) - change them and see what you really have. Normally I don't like oil on the tuners but maybe something that will penetrate and clean them - wipe as much off as you can. A damp rag is about all you should use to clean it - unless you find some dedicated guitar cleaner. You will hear of folks using lemon oil on the fretboard - it can be hard on the finish and I would avoid it or use very lightly. If you would like some more help with the action and neck angle thing let me know - we can go over that with you. Many old guitars turn out to be wonderful players once the issues get resolved.

 

 

Actually yes I would love it if you could help me out. I saw some light reflecting off the body today from across the room, and I didn't really notice that the saddle is rising...I guess the body's warped? I'm not really sure or too knowledgeable on the subject. But I would love to fix it up or atleast maintain it so I could spend my money on a silent violin instead of a new guitar. Any advice would be great.

[kwakatak]

Originally posted by JasmineTea I'd go over the fretboard with fine steel wool, oil the tuners (take them apart, put them back together if possible) string it up and play it. If you like it, keep it.

 

+1

 

I did exactly the same thing with my 3/4-size Kay acoustic just so I could have a smaller fingerpicker and a potential travel guitar. I put Martin SP Fingerstyle PB light gauge on it ($6.50) and bought a new set of 3-on-a-post tuners for $10 or so off Elderly. Not a bad expense for a 30 year-old $35 guitar if I say so myself. Now my kid will have something to learn on.

[Freeman Keller]

OK, got a couple of minutes

 

First, here is a good reference on cleaning the old girl up

 

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/Cleaning/cleaning01.html

 

Clean the frets and board with 0000 steel wool, clean the wood with water (maybe with a little detergent), use naptha (lighter fluid) to get any grime off the wood, or use Frank's tricks with the windshield polish. I would stay away from any waxes or polishes - if the finish is checked it will just get in the little cracks. Clean the tuning machines with some light penetrating oil and get all the excess off. Again, from Frank Ford

 

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/Gears/GearTune/geartune1.html

 

You say you did the gap test but are still confused. You want a straightedge that is just long enough to reach from the 1st fret to the bridge (24 inches). I think a yard stick is good enough but it needs to be straight. When laying on the top of the frets it should just touch the top of the bridge (not the saddle). The are pictures in my sticky but here are Ford's

 

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html

 

If it just touches the top of the bridge, life is good. If it is lower you will need to decide whether it is worth having it fixed - this in not something you can do at home. However, you say that it is very easy to play - that implys that the neck and action aren't too bad. Can you take a picture of the straightedge, bridge and saddle - we can tell a lot more.

 

You say you think the saddle is rising? I think you mean the bridge, which is the wooden thingie glued to the top that holds the plastic or bone saddle. Again, can you take a picture? Can you slide a piece of paper between the top and the underside of the bridge? I also want to see how much of the saddle is sticking out of the bridge - measure it if you can.

 

The last thing I want you to do is hold a string down at the 1st and 12th fret (either use a capo or get a friend to help) and see how many business cards you can slide between the string and the 6th. None, one, two, three?

 

Report all this back and/or post some pics and we'll decide what to do next.

[MurderbyDeath]

 

Originally posted by Freeman Keller OK, got a couple of minutes First, here is a good reference on cleaning the old girl up http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/Cleaning/cleaning01.html Clean the frets and board with 0000 steel wool, clean the wood with water (maybe with a little detergent), use naptha (lighter fluid) to get any grime off the wood, or use Frank's tricks with the windshield polish. I would stay away from any waxes or polishes - if the finish is checked it will just get in the little cracks. Clean the tuning machines with some light penetrating oil and get all the excess off. Again, from Frank Ford http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenMaint/Gears/GearTune/geartune1.html You say you did the gap test but are still confused. You want a straightedge that is just long enough to reach from the 1st fret to the bridge (24 inches). I think a yard stick is good enough but it needs to be straight. When laying on the top of the frets it should just touch the top of the bridge (not the saddle). The are pictures in my sticky but here are Ford's http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neckangle.html If it just touches the top of the bridge, life is good. If it is lower you will need to decide whether it is worth having it fixed - this in not something you can do at home. However, you say that it is very easy to play - that implys that the neck and action aren't too bad. Can you take a picture of the straightedge, bridge and saddle - we can tell a lot more. You say you think the saddle is rising? I think you mean the bridge, which is the wooden thingie glued to the top that holds the plastic or bone saddle. Again, can you take a picture? Can you slide a piece of paper between the top and the underside of the bridge? I also want to see how much of the saddle is sticking out of the bridge - measure it if you can. The last thing I want you to do is hold a string down at the 1st and 12th fret (either use a capo or get a friend to help) and see how many business cards you can slide between the string and the 6th. None, one, two, three? Report all this back and/or post some pics and we'll decide what to do next.

 

 

Alright, I looked all over the damn place for a yard stick or anything around 24 inches and I could not find a damn thing. I guess maybe I should check fabric stores but I'd need to find one first, so I didn't do the straight edge thing.

 

yea your right I did mean bridge, I think faster than I type...but yea I meant the body looks warped (I don't know if thats the right term), and the bridge is starting to come off on one side. I can't take a picture, I don't have my camera. But when I do get it back how exactly should I take the picture to show the problem? I mean at what angle would be the most effective? I measure the saddle from the bridge...it's around .18 (in) give or take a little.

 

The 1st and 12th fret thing I did and I could fit 1 business card. The other thing I did when I was trying to figure it out myself was capo at the 8th fret and holding down the highest fret, the string is suppose to touch all off the frets from there, but 10-13 did not touch. Also the frets are differnt heights.

 

Hmm, after this I don't have much hope for the guitar haha. O well, someday I'll get a new one.

[guit30]

Thank God for Freeman and JT, Wealth of Knowledge!!!!

Jim

:wave:

[Freeman Keller]

 

Originally posted by MurderbyDeath Hmm, after this I don't have much hope for the guitar haha. O well, someday I'll get a new one.

 

 

I ment to get back sooner, but got busy. Actually, I DO have hope for this - this is my unqualified evaluation from what you have said.

 

1 - I think you have enough advice on cleaning it up. When you take the strings off do the 0000 steel wool trick on the frets and board and lub the tuners

 

2 - The nut is probably OK

 

3 - It sounds like the neck relief is OK (one business card is about right.

 

4 - You say it plays nicely so I'm assuming the action is where you want it. With 0.18 inch of saddle sticking out of the bridge AND acceptable action my assumption is that the neck angle (the yardstick test) is probably OK.

 

5 - Bridge is pulling up slightly. Can you slip a piece of paper under the bridge? How far does it go in? The real fix for this is a hassle (remove and reglue the bridge), but here is a mickey mouse fix for a beater guitar - with the strings on and tight (so the gap is opened) work some white glue (Elmers - don't use yellow or epoxy or super glue) into the gap - use the piece of paper or something like that. Now take the strings off and use some small bolts (probably 10-24 or 8-32, try them first) with big washers on each side bolt thru the outside string holes in the bridge. You are going to use the bolts as little clamps. Put a washer on top and on the bottom (you might put some masking tape on the top of the bridge to protected it) snug them up until you see a tiny bit of glue squeeze out of the joint. Not too tight - you'll crack the bridge. Clean up the glue squeeze out and let dry over night.

 

6 - Uneven frets. You need a little straightedge that will span 3 frets but no more and a small (6 inch) mill bastard file. Go up and down the neck with the straightedge rocking it back and forth on the frets to find HIGH ones (there isn't much you can do with low ones). Carefully file the tops of the high ones - just a few strokes with the file, go very slowly and be very conservative. This will leave them slightly flat on top, now carefully try to round off the sharp edges. They make special fret crowning tools for this or you can look for a file made for rounding the edge of Formica (Home Depot, maybe).

 

Here is a good article on frets - it should give you some ideas for working on yours.

 

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/Frets/frets02.html

 

7 - New strings. Put a set of light gauge string on it and enjoy.

 

If none of this makes sense find a digital camera, take some pics and either post them here or e-mail to me. I think you can get my e-mail addy thru my sig - otherwise PM me and I'll send it to you. Good luck, I think you have hope!

[MurderbyDeath]

 

If none of this makes sense find a digital camera, take some pics and either post them here or e-mail to me. I think you can get my e-mail addy thru my sig - otherwise PM me and I'll send it to you. Good luck, I think you have hope!

 

 

Thank you so much for the help! I'll take a trip to a hardware store today to get the bolts and washers. That's a great tip btw, I would have never thought of that even though it seems so ovious. But I was always told not to take all of the strings off of instruments, especially older ones because the change in tension could really damage it. I know its bad for the bridge on violins...but guitars have different bridges so I don't know if the change in tension is bad for the neck or what, I was just always told not to do it. Maybe you could tell me more about that so I won't be scared of taking all the strings off? Haha, I'm sorry if I sound stupid.

 

I may file the frets myself (ok I most likely will), but the string thing still bothers me.

 

Thank you again for you help!

[Freeman Keller]

There was actually a pretty good thread real recently on taking all the strings off at once - you could use the search engine and probably find it. Opinions vary and there are good reasons on both sides. I made the flippant comment that I just take a pair of diagonal cutters and snip them all - actually I loosen them a turn or so first, then just cut them at the sound hole and remove all at once. On a guitar or mandolin or something were the bridge can shift (my dobros are that way) I leave a couple on, but I still don't change them one at a time.

 

You can make a strong arguement for doing them one at a time - but with them all off you can wipe down the fretboard (and clean them with the steel wool) and clean those parts of the top under the strings.

 

My opinion is that it doesn't matter and I've watched Martin techs change strings (they remove them all at once) but if you want to be safe one at a time is probably best.

 

Again, refering to Frank Ford's page, he takes them all off

 

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/SteelStrings/Stringing/ststringing1.html

 

As does the Taylor site

 

http://www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdfs/05_steel_string.pdf

 

 

On the fret filing, do a lot of checking and measuring before you actually take a file to them. There is often a hump at the 12th thru 14th frets that can cause strings to buzz. This would be a good place to get an opinion from someone who can look at it with you. I know you don't want to put much money into it but the potential for damage is there.

[MurderbyDeath]

 

Originally posted by Freeman Keller On the fret filing, do a lot of checking and measuring before you actually take a file to them. There is often a hump at the 12th thru 14th frets that can cause strings to buzz. This would be a good place to get an opinion from someone who can look at it with you. I know you don't want to put much money into it but the potential for damage is there.

 

 

Actually there is no hump there...it looks like those frets were filed quite a few years ago. The 15th fret is MUCH higer than 12-14. I will be conservative when filing that one.

 

So another question about the guitar...I want to paint the edges of the body where black paint once was. What kind of paint would I use? Do they sell stuff like that at music stores? Its just a vanity thing I know but if I'm gonna take the time to fix it up I might as well make it athsteticly pleasing too.

[Freeman Keller]

It was probably finished with nitrocellulose lacquer. Once again, I'm going to refer to Frets.com, here is Frank's test

 

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Finish/AcetoneFinishTest/acetonetest.html

 

If it is lacquer you should be able to use any black lacquer to refinish the edge. However lacquer can damage other finishes to be sure before you paint, and try a very small area first. But are you sure it is painted? Most guitar have some sort of plastic edge material, call a binding, that sits in a little groove routed into the edge.

 

One last comment about filing the frets - proctect the fretboard itself with masking tape on each side of the fret. It is really easy to gouge up the board.

[MurderbyDeath]

 

Originally posted by Freeman Keller It was probably finished with nitrocellulose lacquer. Once again, I'm going to refer to Frets.com, here is Frank's test http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Finish/AcetoneFinishTest/acetonetest.html If it is lacquer you should be able to use any black lacquer to refinish the edge. However lacquer can damage other finishes to be sure before you paint, and try a very small area first. But are you sure it is painted? Most guitar have some sort of plastic edge material, call a binding, that sits in a little groove routed into the edge. One last comment about filing the frets - proctect the fretboard itself with masking tape on each side of the fret. It is really easy to gouge up the board.

 

 

Yea its painted. The wood on the edges is all worn and looks really bad. I was going to just touch it up with black nail polish from my high school days (I did that for my electric guitar, also from high school haha...and my car). I mean, I guess if I can't find cheapo paint I might as well do that, its not like the guitar is gorgeous or anything and nail polish will ruin.

[Freeman Keller]

Nail polish is lacquer based. Should work. Mask it for a nice straight line (you can get some of that pinstrip masking tape at an auto parts store - I've used that to mask some binding that I didn't want to get stain on).